New Archetype: Protector (support/melee)

[Wavicle]

Proposal for a new archetype: The Protector, melee support specialist.

 

The Protector has a buff/debuff primary and melee damage secondary. They take a pure support role alongside defenders and controllers, they lack the range but make up for it with survivability.
 

Their buff/debuff and CC values are similar to those of a corruptor (perhaps very slightly better), but they have hit points closer to a stalker. The range of most of their buff/debuff abilities is no more than that of sentinel's blast abilities. Their melee attacks do somewhat less than tanker damage, with base damage slightly higher than a brute but a cap lower than a tanker.  Their self defense caps are around those of a stalker.

Like most melee attackers they get Build Up or some other damage boost in their attack set. They do not get Confront, but instead get Power Placate, which does not allow you to get critical strikes but gives a 10 second Power Boost effect when used.

The Protector has an inherent power that helps them survive in the melee environment, Stalwart, a passive power that gives a small amount of protection from sleep, stun, and hold and gives a moderate absorb shield that gradually refills when depleted.  It also grants a buff to the range of many of their buff/debuff abilities that increases as team health decreases.  The range buff does not activate when solo.

Their Ancillary and Patron pools look similar to those of defenders, but with short range attacks instead of melee, and of course without access to Power Boost or Power Build Up or other powers now available in their secondary sets.  None of their epic pools would include sniper attacks, but their Patron pools would include pets at the highest tier.

 

A sample Protector powerset combination:

Primary Powerset: Dark Miasma

1 Twilight Grasp
1 Tar Patch

2 Darkest Night

6 Howling Twilight

8 Shadow Fall

12 Fearsome Stare

18 Petrifying Gaze

26 Black Hole

32 Dark Servant

 

Secondary Powerset: Psionic Melee

 

1 Mental Strike

2 Psi Blade

4 Telekinetic Blow

10 Power Placate

16 Psi Blade Sweep

20 Concentration

28 Boggle

35 Greater Psi Blade

38 Mass Levitate

Ancillary Pool: Electricity Mastery

35 Electric Fence

35 Ball Lightning

41 Charged Armor

41 Shocking Bolt

44 Power Sink

With their higher hit points and defensive inherent ability the Protector serves as a lightly armored support specialist, somewhat tougher than a defender despite slightly less powerful buffs. Their low base damage and damage cap gives them damage close to that of defenders, but their need to be in melee to do that damage puts them at greater risk despite their resilience.

The Protector fills one of the last holes in the archetype system, giving the player near total flexibility in choosing powerset combinations for their character.

 

EDITS: Changed Placate to Power Placate (Placate+10 second Power Boost) and changed name from Guardian to Protector.

Edited December 18, 2019 by sacredlunatic

[Call Me Awesome]

I seem to recall this AT was proposed by the Devs prior to shutdown alongside the Sentinel and eventually rejected after play testing showed the concept was problematic.

[boggo2300]

1 hour ago, Call Me Awesome said:

I seem to recall this AT was proposed by the Devs prior to shutdown alongside the Sentinel and eventually rejected after play testing showed the concept was problematic.

I believe it was "we can't figure out how to make it fun to play"

[EmmySky]

I think kin/ma or emp/ma or ma/kin or ma/emp would be fun.  But I love ma.  

[Call Me Awesome]

1 hour ago, boggo2300 said:

I believe it was "we can't figure out how to make it fun to play"

Which in a game would be somewhat... problematic. 😉

[boggo2300]

30 minutes ago, Call Me Awesome said:

Which in a game would be somewhat... problematic. 😉

Pretty much 😄

[Haijinx]

Here we go again ...

 

/jranger

 

And /jranger for the next one also. 

 

 

[Replacement]

4 hours ago, Call Me Awesome said:

I seem to recall this AT was proposed by the Devs prior to shutdown alongside the Sentinel and eventually rejected after play testing showed the concept was problematic.

Was it this AT or are you talking about the name, Guardian?

 

My understanding is the other one they were playing with (which is apparently a thing over on Rebirth now) is an Assault/armor/support AT (in roughly that order), and the OP's suggestion here simply uses the name Guardian.

 

We definitely need a support/melee.  We really do.  But yeah, it would be a bad idea to call it Guardian at this point.

[Wavicle]

1 minute ago, Replacement said:

Was it this AT or are you talking about the name, Guardian?

 

My understanding is the other one they were playing with (which is apparently a thing over on Rebirth now) is an Assault/armor/support AT (in roughly that order), and the OP's suggestion here simply uses the name Guardian.

 

We definitely need a support/melee.  We really do.  But yeah, it would be a bad idea to call it Guardian at this point.

My design here is based on a suggestion made by GM Jimmy in a conversation on Excelsior. I had no idea that there had been a previously considered archetype with the same name. We can change the name.

[FDR's Think Tank]

You could always make the Inherent similar an inverted version of Mastermind Inherent. What if the support/melee is like a Tauntless Tank? They basically have automatic pain-sharing from allies in a certain range of them... it's giving an ally cover.  They would have aura buffs they share that don't quite give them defense on the level of a tank, scrapper, or brute... but all of their buffs/heals/rez powers can SELF-target as well as be used on allies. You would probably have to deny the class any pet powers or debuffs that weren't some sort of self-aura, but I think this could be really fun having super flexible support abilities, a beefy HP, and simple melee.

 

I could even see a some of the support sets for this class being based on existing defensive sets too... The Shield Set would probably have some interesting differences as a support power, for instance. For sets like fire, you can modify the support powers to fit the new AT Profile, but even sprinkle in some defensive set powers where the support ability slips out of buff/heal/rez/self-aura debuff.

 

This side steps the issue of having a inherent that forces you to try to take damage when you are squishy and competing with tanks for taunt. Otherwise, you might drift from the team and main battle, trying to hunt down foes simply to hit you so your bar can fill up. A support class can fight, but they should focus on positioning themselves to assist allies. The scrapper, the brute, the stalker are the classes that can haul off on their own and stir up trouble on the fringes. They don't need to worry as much about the team formation.

 

For other AT names... you could try Champion or Warden.

Edited December 14, 2019 by FDR's Think Tank

[Wavicle]

13 minutes ago, FDR's Think Tank said:

You could always make the Inherent similar an inverted version of Mastermind Inherent. What if the support/melee is like a Tauntless Tank? They basically have automatic pain-sharing from allies in a certain range of them... it's giving an ally cover.  They would have aura buffs they share that don't quite give them defense on the level of a tank, scrapper, or brute... but all of their buffs/heals/rez powers can SELF-target as well as be used on allies. You would probably have to deny the class any pet powers or debuffs that weren't some sort of self-aura, but I think this could be really fun having super flexible support abilities, a beefy HP, and simple melee.

 

I could even see a some of the support sets for this class being based on existing defensive sets too... The Shield Set would probably have some interesting differences as a support power, for instance. For sets like fire, you can modify the support powers to fit the new AT Profile, but even sprinkle in some defensive set powers where the support ability slips out of buff/heal/rez/self-aura debuff.

 

This side steps the issue of having a inherent that forces you to try to take damage when you are squishy and competing with tanks for taunt. Otherwise, you might drift from the team and main battle, trying to hunt down foes simply to hit you so your bar can fill up. A support class can fight, but they should focus on positioning themselves to assist allies. The scrapper, the brute, the stalker are the classes that can haul off on their own and stir up trouble on the fringes. They don't need to worry as much about the team formation.

 

For other AT names... you could try Champion or Warden.

What you've just described is the Arachnos classes.  The whole point of this design is to use the exisiting Buff sets. 

[Wavicle]

So are people saying they think this would be either overpowered or underpowered?  I would think the numbers could be tweaked to make that not the case.

[Nightmarer]

15 hours ago, Replacement said:

(which is apparently a thing over on Rebirth now)

 

I bet the 10 ppl that play there will be thrilled

[FDR's Think Tank]

On ‎12‎/‎13‎/‎2019 at 7:18 PM, sacredlunatic said:

What you've just described is the Arachnos classes.  The whole point of this design is to use the exisiting Buff sets. 

Of course there is a difference between Epic Archetypes and Archetypes. 

~The Arachnos Soldiers and Widows have aura buff powers (Teamwork), but they aren't varied by powerset proliferation as is being suggested.

~They don't have an automatic pain share from nearby allies. This is pretty critical, since it means Arachnos needs to focus on drawing aggro to fill a tank role... They have Conditioning to give them a higher base HP than other classes, but it's a pretty vanilla inherent.

~They have loads of options for ranged combat all mixed in with their close combat abilities... as opposed to focused melee options.

 

I think heal/rez/aura with no taunt melee and a pain-share inherent makes more sense that directly importing existing support/melee sets and giving the AT a variation of the Brute power focused on taking hits. However, you are correct. There is probably a way to balance either solution with numbers, the question is... does it make sense from an enjoyment standpoint?

 

Maybe our misunderstanding is that "Powerset Proliferation" doesn't always translate to "Pure copy pasting existing sets" over into a different archetype. For instance, if Dominator's were to get Illusion control, they probably won't get three separate pet summons like the controller version has. It will probably have some sort of mass illusion bind with spectral fading damage to swap out at least one of the pet summon abilities. My suggestion is that, especially for the PRIMARY power set Proliferation, you consider what the set should be made up of and what varied features might set it apart from other classes. For instance, Defenders can Rez people, but not all Defenders have that. They have buffs, debuffs, heals... They currently become highly endurance efficient when the team is in a critical state. It lets teams play more fast and loose and rewards more risky behavior. A team without a defender or two might need to pace itself more judiciously.

 

Since the "Support/Melee" is kinda like a Melee version of the Defender, I believe letting defender powers self target and giving them less range to deploy those powers is a sensible alteration to make to the power sets. Otherwise, aren't you actually making a melee version of the Corrupter.... which has a crazy glass jaw, but compensates by staying far back of the front lines of combat? How is a Melee character supposed to be fun if they have limited ways to support themselves, need to take pool powers to get self rez, and have to switch between close combat attacks and longer range debuffs? It almost doesn't make sense. You'd eat more floor than an uppity blaster, while playing it exactly how it's designed.

 

Also as the OP suggested, this class seems to be getting Pets in it's Primary. That certainly sounds fun, but I don't know if it quite meshes with the role of support/melee. While I realize there are Tankermind builds for the Mastermind class, they have special pet controls. Without that, doing support, fighting melee, and keeping track of pets you can barely command seems like it might be too much chaos? Then again, in a heavy firefight, who can even tell what is going on half the time... All the same, my preference is to imagine this class as a positional melee fighter who enhances the team by keeping themselves on the edge of the frontlines.

 

 

Maybe you think I am over obsessing about the precise details of this. You are probably correct, I have over a decade of thoughts on City of Heroes pent up in me. Most of them aren't even worth expressing now that we have the classic back, since they are focused on what a sequel should have been like. However, consider the Sentinel.

Sentinels were pretty simple from the first look of it... but there is a lot of ongoing debate on whether the class is good enough. It's hard to balance something that is specifically less specialized. They could have made it so Sentinel Defensive Power sets either focused on exclusively defending from ranged attacks or melee to allow for more specialization between Sentinel characters... but it's a little late to make a strange and sweeping change like that. Now people are stuck in a debate about how they are too squishy and they can't out DPS a Blaster. They also missed an excellent opportunity to explore damage reflection as a major power mechanic that would set the Sentinel apart from everything else. I just don't think these wild ideas can be quite implemented now that people's expectations have settled on what might be impossible to balance against expectations. While the Sentinels have some differences in them from the other Ranged and Defensive power set classes, I feel like the dissatisfaction people feel from them is they don't have any specialized tactics/abilities/strategies that really make you feel like you stand out. They fade into the background... but unlike stalkers, they don't do it in a intended way. Personally, I still have fun playing the class, but I understand why there are lots of debates over what just seems like it should be the best of both worlds for soloing. This is why I feel the best way to do an archetype is get the concept or power set concepts done first... then you know what you need to do to proliferate all those different powers over to the new AT.

[Wavicle]

They aren’t designed to fill a tank role. They are designed to fill a support role. They don’t typically get pets in the primary that’s just dark miasma. Which is just the example I used.

[Lorbenia]

I like the idea, but it would need some work.  I'd love to have a martial arts/empathy monk-like character.

[FDR's Think Tank]

You have to build in a benefit for a support class to be in melee ranges so that the "Support" role makes sense there. Limited pain share with auras puts them right were you want them on the battlefield, without requiring them to harvest aggro from the other melee classes. If the team has no other melee classes, the class would basically defend/support other team members with the pain-share without drawing a huge amount of aggro. (Pain-share wouldn't knock you out, in case that wasn't clear.) Calling it a Tauntless Tank might have confused you... What I mean isn't a tank at all, since Tanks typically hold aggro. However, what I suggest is a damage sink class, which works primarily for the inverted reasons Defenders are highly limited in self buffing and self healing. If you take away those limits, Defenders themselves become too good, especially in solo, but paired with a melee focused class, you can probably pull it off without upsetting game balance and playability. In this way, the class DOES fill a tank role about as well or slightly LESS than a Scrapper. The way it gets there is different from usual, admittedly... but this is a great opportunity for people who, for example, want a sort of Green Lantern that does combat and bubbles... and this is where it would happen! Also consider, for Buff based classes, you might get double duty from your damage resist buffs on a pain-share from allies.... first on damage the ally receives after damage reduction.. then from the buff on yourself when pain share comes in. It creates a different balance for a lighter version of Defender Buffs that takes full advantage of the power.

 

 

 

Let's rewind to what you suggested for inherent: Stalwart: Resist to Sleep, Stun, Hold... and a shield that recharges as they take damage. That, combined with your suggestion they have Placate, to reduce aggro, and more HP than a Defender.... means you feel they are gonna take hits, but need to avoid that. There are a couple of gaps here:

 

First: Placate. The only class that currently has that is Stalker... and stalker gets dual, even TRIPLE time use out of the ability because they have always have a hide defensive power and they get backstab damage. You would only be getting the benefits of a Presence Placate out of the power, which makes it an very weak option. In order to consistently stay OUT of trouble, since the class is only slightly less squishy than a Defender, you either need to take Concealment (Which would be so good with your proposed version of the class it might be considered required, especially to take full advantage of Placates ability to return to stealth/invisibility) Or you would have to take Presence just to get another mini-placate to keep people off you. Of course, you could make the Secondary Power Placate recharge fast to make Presence Placate totally obsolete with this AT. You could ALSO make the Secondary Placate in this set give some sort of boost to the Shield bar.... but in the end, it still ends with Concealment becoming a required power I think. So... maybe consider making it a stealth class... if you really Frontline sneak support. It could really work, but you would need to sacrifice a support power to a Hide Toggle. Of course, if the Support set has an Aura Stealth, then it's all built in and functions very well! The problem is, of course, that Placate is an attack power and is much less useful without stealth. I don't know if it's possible to alter a single ability across a Secondary Set based on the Primary Power Set that is chosen. If it was, Placate could be swapped out or given a different bonus for non-stealth characters... other than getting left alone very temporarily. You don't need to placate at all if you simply reduce or remove aggro from the AT's Melee attacks.... but there needs to be a trade off there.

~That's why I like the pain-share.... it can put you right on the edge, but if you don't naturally draw aggro, then the AT's built in weakness is AoE Damage (and lone mobs noticing them) which makes the AT need to manage it's health, position, and defensive abilities for, but within what I would think is reasonable. Well, all that risk and the threat of a high accuracy alpha-strike from a PC Stalker... but lots of people are weak to that, naturally.

 

Second: Inherent that is partially based on taking direct damage. Assuming the shield is a separate function from the sleep/stun/hold resists, You are telling me a sorta squishy class only gets access to it's Damage soak/resist AFTER it takes damage? Wouldn't it make more sense to tie it to your teammates, like the Defender? The melee/support would be harder to eliminate as the team is wiped, allowing him to survive long enough to revive/ send heals/ emergency buff/debuff? Otherwise it feels close to a brute... you are either being rewarded for calling down trouble you personally can't handle or you are sorta forced to misbehave to gain the defensive benefit which is pretty critical on the frontline. I suppose I am not really clear on how squishy the support/melee AT here is. Obviously, they aren't as squishy as a Defender and they cannot tank like a Tank or Brute.... but how do they compare to a Scrapper? A Stalker? A Sentinel? If it's below a Sentinel, that certainly makes sense from a power standpoint, but remember, in your version, it cannot self target most of it's support powers... just like a Defender. It definitely won't be able to tank... but I am curious if a small health boost is the best way to make it able to support on the Frontline. It technically couldn't tank if it was as strong as a stalker either... but how you get to that makes a big difference. You can balance it with HP to a certain point, but then people start taking Combat Jumping, Tough, Weave, and such to turn it into a beefcake... and it really shouldn't be out performing a Scrapper on damage soaking as you suggested it.

~This is also why I like Pain-share... it's a limited damage soak. It might turn off when the AT hit's the Yellow Zone of self hitpoints, the red Zone, or even the Flashing Red Zone... but once you are below your threshold its off, then you have to weigh the risks and consider a self heal or temporary withdrawal from frontlines. The class can do light frontline support, light damage soak, and moderate melee if you set it up as I suggest. Again, the closest analog to this is Mastermind, who can pain-share damage dealt to him with his pets. This has lead to Tankermind builds, but that's a real Aggro-holding Tank subbuild... not what I have suggested which is more a limited-context damage sponge.

 

Third: Nobody is gonna turn down Resists to Sleep/Stun/Hold... but I have to point out- The Defender typically are able to raise the teams resistance to various effects such as these. They can't always buff themselves against these things, since many of their buff powers can ONLY target teammates. It seems a real wasted opportunity for build diversity to simply blanket give the entire AT blanket resistance to these three instead of having self target support and letting the players decide what abilities they want to slot for resistances against for themselves. Of course, there is one large gap here, and that is Debuff heavy sets. For a Debuff set, you can't share that power with yourself or do double duty for defending... however, for dealing damage and such, you are reaping the benefits of dealing extra damage... provided they don't Nerf-Nuke the Debuff heavy set like they did to Trick Arrow. (I suppose the Trick Arrow Proliferation would be some sort of Utility Belt/Elemental Chassis set with lots of different Debuff Auras...)

 

 

 

I will say this: for a real hero style Firefighter... this AT would be the most promising powerset. You hit with Melee and support your team: rescue them. That sounds like fun. I just hope it can be balanced well.

 

 

Also, point taken on Dark, since it IS the Pet Set... you pair that with Illusion control for the most summons possible, after all. If you had a pain-share though, Would you tertiary pain-share TO The pet for this AT though? Then you could TRIPLE stack damage soaking. Could be neat, since you still can't implement Mastermind pet controls on it.

 

 

Edited December 15, 2019 by FDR's Think Tank

[Leogunner]

Basically, this topic has been rehashed many times.  Overall, a melee offense, support defense type AT can be done in many ways and its overall effectiveness can vary.

 

The problem is, IMO, is posters get very caught up on proposing "the best" way when what is needed is "a unique" way.  People get caught up in making it the best "middle of the road/jack of all trades" when it mostly needs to play differently which is actually harder when you're hybridizing 2 ATs together (a melee AT and a support AT).  Because people get caught up with that aspect, they then get caught up in reinforcing said idea in their head and completely forget about the first paragraph (that there are many ways to come at the idea).

 

Another way to come at an idea when presenting it to others is telling us what it DOESN'T DO.  I think that's a funny angle because people will get caught up explaining how it fits between 2 ATs at various things.  If you tell me what it cannot do, you can justify it for what it can do.

[MetaVileTerror]

"Not fun"  . . . not fun for whom, and according to whom?

 

It's the number one argument lobbied against this suggestion, and I just can not fathom it.  Even before this became a not-for-profit fan-directed game and there was a fiscal bottom line to stifle diverse creativity and enjoyment, it wouldn't have been a matter of "no fun, don't do it."  It would have been "we haven't figured out how to make it 'fun' enough to make it fiscally responsible to dedicate the time and effort to make it happen."  

So can we PLEASE stop it with that absolutely nonsensical excuse already?  A Support / Melee Archetype is a Great Idea!  It just needs to be implemented well enough, and since we don't have any real threats looming over us for under-performance, just get her done.

[Wavicle]

41 minutes ago, Leogunner said:

Basically, this topic has been rehashed many times.  Overall, a melee offense, support defense type AT can be done in many ways and its overall effectiveness can vary.

 

The problem is, IMO, is posters get very caught up on proposing "the best" way when what is needed is "a unique" way.  People get caught up in making it the best "middle of the road/jack of all trades" when it mostly needs to play differently which is actually harder when you're hybridizing 2 ATs together (a melee AT and a support AT).  Because people get caught up with that aspect, they then get caught up in reinforcing said idea in their head and completely forget about the first paragraph (that there are many ways to come at the idea).

 

Another way to come at an idea when presenting it to others is telling us what it DOESN'T DO.  I think that's a funny angle because people will get caught up explaining how it fits between 2 ATs at various things.  If you tell me what it cannot do, you can justify it for what it can do.

Well, I'm not really convinced that they need anything "unique" in that sense, Corruptors don't really have anything like that.  But I'll play along.

First, this is not meant to be a hybrid dps/support class.  It is meant to be a pure support class, like Defenders.  So perhaps, first, the buffs need to be a little stronger, close to Defender strength.

Now how about something like this:  What if their Placate gave a 10 second buff to Heals, Defense Buffs, Damage Resistance Buffs, ToHit Debuffs, Defense DeBuffs, etc.?

[boggo2300]

20 minutes ago, MetaVileTerror said:

"Not fun"  . . . not fun for whom, and according to whom?

 

It's the number one argument lobbied against this suggestion, and I just can not fathom it.  Even before this became a not-for-profit fan-directed game and there was a fiscal bottom line to stifle diverse creativity and enjoyment, it wouldn't have been a matter of "no fun, don't do it."  It would have been "we haven't figured out how to make it 'fun' enough to make it fiscally responsible to dedicate the time and effort to make it happen."  

So can we PLEASE stop it with that absolutely nonsensical excuse already?  A Support / Melee Archetype is a Great Idea!  It just needs to be implemented well enough, and since we don't have any real threats looming over us for under-performance, just get her done.

Take it up with Positron, he's the one that said it

[Wavicle]

13 minutes ago, boggo2300 said:

Take it up with Positron, he's the one that said it

Positron couldn't make it fun, maybe.  But he doesn't work here anymore!

[boggo2300]

2 minutes ago, sacredlunatic said:

Positron couldn't make it fun, maybe.  But he doesn't work here anymore!

no But Leo and Cpt Powerhouse tried and rejected the Guardian that's now on rebirth for similar reasons

[Wavicle]

Just now, boggo2300 said:

no But Leo and Cpt Powerhouse tried and rejected the Guardian that's now on rebirth for similar reasons

This has nothing to do with that.  Only the name.

[boggo2300]

Just now, sacredlunatic said:

This has nothing to do with that.  Only the name.

and the general purpose, which is what I believe is the problem,  don't get me wrong, this is much better thought out than the original Guardian, it's just the base premise is flawed I think