Dom - wimpy until perma-dom?

[oedipus_tex]

Overall I consider Electric the safest Dominator primary for soloing. Electric is low damage, which is an issue for Controllers. but a Dominator gets a whole secondary devoted to damage.

 

The main two issues facing Dominators solo is 1) running out of endurance, and 2) balancing recharge on big control powers so they are up for the next fight. E.g. if you are nearing the end of a battle and there are 3 enemies left, it doesn't make sense to Flashfire them because you want it ready for the next fight. So you end up having to tank through whatever damage the enemies hurl at you to preserve overall map clear speed.

 

Electric doesn't have either issue, because near the end of each fight, enemies have no endurance to attack you, and it costs no endurance to keep them that way since Conductive Aura costs nothing to run. You can literally just stand there and wait for endurance to come back in near safety.

 

I'm always surprised not to see more Electric Dominators. 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 24, 2019 by oedipus_tex

[Leogunner]

23 hours ago, Chirikiti said:

"I have a couple Doms and I get where you are coming from. My Mind/Psi was hard to level and still feels a kind of wobbly" - Why this should be I don't know, it's awesome at level 2 let alone leveling up. 

 

From a few conversations with people I think it's how people play them. I had one person describe their leveling experience and game-play in missions and was frankly shocked at how they were approaching things, the powers they used and how they used them. It was sort of embarrassing because it seems after 15+ levels they hadn't learned anything about the AT or powers or put any thought on how to better use their stuff.

 

While all power-set-combos may not be equal at a given level or block of levels, I just don't see how they can feel under-powered or difficult to run through the content.

I tend to feel the same way, particularly when players give the advice of "just get perma-dom and everything changes!".  Even with perma-dom as a crutch, if you don't know how to use the powers, it only goes from "you struggle until you have enough buttons to press" to "your buttons come up fast so just spam them all".

 

 

[Chirikiti]

11 hours ago, tjknight said:

The key to creating a good leveling Dom is pairing a Primary that gets a solid AoE control early with a good damage dealing secondary. 

Disagree. Virtually everything I do up until the 30s is single target, and even then the aoe damage power is anemic (could skip it if it weren't useful for sets) and I can do whatever. In fact I've soloed e everything with basically the powers from the first 18 levels really.

 

11 hours ago, tjknight said:

Also, being careful to lock things down first before moving in for attacks is vital.

this is 101 as far as I'm concerned

 

11 hours ago, tjknight said:

So if playing a Mind Dom, my preference is to sleep mobs with Mass Hypnosis. Then pick off enemies one by one.  You can also use Mesmerize & Confuse to keep enemies  out of the fight if Hypnosis isn't up.

Rarely do this on my Mind dom (my hyper-specialty), it's unnecessary really except for really large groups or clustered ones.

[Chirikiti]

3 minutes ago, Leogunner said:

I tend to feel the same way, particularly when players give the advice of "just get perma-dom and everything changes!".  Even with perma-dom as a crutch, if you don't know how to use the powers, it only goes from "you struggle until you have enough buttons to press" to "your buttons come up fast so just spam them all".

 

 

I've seen this: "your buttons come up fast so just spam them all" a LOT. Sometimes I'm working my ass off in a team with another dom or 2 in it and I have to wonder what they are doing...8 attacks in not one hold; an anemic AOE on a single AV when 2 better actions could have been taken in the activation/animation time.

 

I think many people who play Doms have no experience playing them, PL'd to 50 slotted to perma...then absolutley no experience with the various mobs/AVs. No thought or observation put into it.

[Mezmera]

Chirikiti you seem to be giving some bad alternative advice which comes off as very hypocritical.  First you talk about focusing on your controls and such but state you only use single target controls mostly, how bad of a teammate you must be to not lock down a group of enemies when that's an ability innate to your AT.  Building a good dom is all about variety in your powers and slotting.  To me it looks like people are offering a diverse range of input for players to pick and choose from.  

 

I've seen you generalizing some of the players offering their advice a lot lately.  I'd love to see your dom in action with that minimal AoE control and low defense, my guess would be that you'd get crunched pretty hard in content where there are more than two targets and they are immune to your mezzes.  I'd love to duo some of the harder content with you so you can see what a Mind dom can truly be Mr. expert.  

[Wavicle]

Sometimes you can just DPS but sometimes you must focus on Control.  It depends on who else is on your team and what you are fighting.

[Leogunner]

1 hour ago, Mezmera said:

my guess would be that you'd get crunched pretty hard in content where there are more than two targets and they are immune to your mezzes.  I'd love to duo some of the harder content with you so you can see what a Mind dom can truly be Mr. expert.  

My guess is, if you ended up getting surprised 2-shotted, quickly rezzed and Domination wasn't recharged (have to wait for your crutch to recharge again), you'd probably get crunched in a normal team-sized spawn too.

 

The thing about mind control is, the foes don't even have to know you're there at all until it's too late.  Building a good character tends to come with the connotation of building by template and it tends to be more stifling than diverse.  

[Mezmera]

23 minutes ago, Leogunner said:

My guess is, if you ended up getting surprised 2-shotted, quickly rezzed and Domination wasn't recharged (have to wait for your crutch to recharge again), you'd probably get crunched in a normal team-sized spawn too.

 

The thing about mind control is, the foes don't even have to know you're there at all until it's too late.  Building a good character tends to come with the connotation of building by template and it tends to be more stifling than diverse.  

I don't get surprise 2-shotted, if I do get surprised by an aggro of lets say 3 groups of 16 enemies I still won't get dropped, I run at least 50+ defense to everything at almost all times so it's rare a hit gets through and if it does I've got plenty of aoe control to handle all that aggro.  All this without sacrificing anything in building a well balanced dom.  Also, no I don't build my dom to sneak around if I don't want to, my template is enhanced so that I can out tank the tank if I want to (which is all the time) and providing blaster like dps too, sounds pretty diverse to me.  

Edited December 28, 2019 by Mezmera

[Leogunner]

5 minutes ago, Mezmera said:

I don't get surprise 2-shotted, if I do get surprised by an aggro of lets say 3 groups of 16 enemies I still won't get dropped, I run at least 50+ defense to everything at almost all times so it's rare a hit gets through and if it does I've got plenty of aoe control to handle all that aggro.  All this without sacrificing anything in building a well balanced dom.  Also, no I don't build my dom to sneak around if I don't want to, my template is enhanced so that I can out tank the tank if I want to (which is all the time) and providing blaster like dps too, sounds pretty diverse to me.  

Sounds cookie cutter like practically every build boasted on the forums to me.

 

But it doesn't take a skilled player to follow a template, nor does it take a good player to just load up on IOs and incarnate abilities.  But keep stroking that ego, it looks good on ya 😋

[honoroit]

What a joy it is, to behold the divine.

It must be such a pleasure.

You're in my debt, you know.

You're in nigh on a beast of the field,

but here you are,

treading a measure with the gods.

 

A good dominator astounds teams. They may not even say it, but you know they writhe in envy. 

 

You are their orphaned hope, their morningtide. You do favor to visit this will upon them.  

[Mezmera]

Cookie cutter eh?  Because all those cookie cutter doms pull 50+ defense on everything and still maintain tons of aggro control plus high damage.  If that's the norm nowadays how come I don't see many doms running around like I do?  Not trying to stroke any ego, I know what I can do and some of the people on here telling people what they can and cannot do is just closed minded.  

 

I'm on excelsior anytime you want to test who's cookie cutter dom stands up let me know.  

Edited December 28, 2019 by Mezmera

[Chirikiti]

4 hours ago, Mezmera said:

Chirikiti you seem to be giving some bad alternative advice which comes off as very hypocritical.  First you talk about focusing on your controls and such but state you only use single target controls mostly, how bad of a teammate you must be to not lock down a group of enemies when that's an ability innate to your AT.

I mainly use single-target controls. Not like mass hypnosis and mass confusion aren't used regularly. But I'm wicked awesome at tabbing through and/or choosing targets for Control...while concentrating on the AV (if there is one)

I'm the best teammate because I lock down everything (necessary)...mmm great now I have to get all boastful- everyone loves me on their team, regular crew or PUGs...built myself quite the rep since May.

<Joins Team>

"Six! we got this now" "Hehe Six is here, now they can carry us" etc etc.

 

My main beef is Control-ATs NOT controlling things...why am I the only one using holds on stuff, why am I the only one working to lock down the AV etc. Why are those things running around ganking things when there's 2 controllers and another Dom on the team?

 

4 hours ago, Mezmera said:

I've seen you generalizing some of the players offering their advice a lot lately.  I'd love to see your dom in action with that minimal AoE control and low defense, my guess would be that you'd get crunched pretty hard in content where there are more than two targets and they are immune to your mezzes.

Quite the opposite in fact. I already addressed the AOE controls. But I never die (get crunched) no matter how large the mobs are or how small or what they are composed of. I don't have low defense, I'm just not soft capped, still have good defenses. I'm the first one in the AVs face and I stay there for mind probe and if necessary I manage the situation of the rest of the room/area from there.

 

4 hours ago, Mezmera said:

I'd love to duo some of the harder content with you so you can see what a Mind dom can truly be Mr. expert.  

Hey that sounds fun actually. You seem to have built and maybe even mastered your AT/Build. That's great. So have I. We just have different playstyles. Interestingly enough I have a Mind/Psi Dom clone of my Torchbearer-Main on Excelsior. We should duo something for kicks. I would love to play with a mind/psi dom that actually knows what they are doing and can do it well. 

Yeah and I consider myself a bit of an expert because I've rocked this toon (PVE/PVP) on live since issue 8 as well as pretty much only playing that here. Solo'd almost every GM (no Lores), solo'd almost all the TFs and Trials in game.

 

I'm totally down for a duo (no joke), I think it would be nifty to see an alternate build/play style played well, then we could both see what a Mind dom can truly be hehe...been wanting to make a radically altered second build now for about 4 months but never get around to it.

 

 

So basically my posts are about providing an alternate view on people's assumptions (staying away from melee range, needing soft cap defenses, and my lamenting the lack of control use among control-ATs etc.) I see little little bad advice or hypocrisy.

 

 

[Leogunner]

16 hours ago, Mezmera said:

Cookie cutter eh?  Because all those cookie cutter doms pull 50+ defense on everything and still maintain tons of aggro control plus high damage.  

Pretty much. 

 

16 hours ago, Mezmera said:

If that's the norm nowadays how come I don't see many doms running around like I do?  

Maybe because you're up your own arse, you're not paying attention to anyone but yourself. 

 

16 hours ago, Mezmera said:

  Not trying to stroke any ego, I know what I can do and some of the people on here telling people what they can and cannot do is just closed minded.  

 

I'm on excelsior anytime you want to test who's cookie cutter dom stands up let me know.  

Well you are stroking your ego since you seemed to have forgotten  where you came from. 

 

I'm on Indomitable. Roll up a new character and we'll experience the whole spectrum of the game. 

Edited December 28, 2019 by Leogunner

[Mezmera]

Quit giving bad advice baddo.  I'm not running a new dom all the way to 50 thanks though for the offer.   I already know there's no cookies like me so make of that whatever you will. 

 

I'll be on for a bit @Mistress Mezmera 

Edited December 28, 2019 by Mezmera

[honoroit]

 

[mbre2006]

On 12/24/2019 at 3:29 PM, oedipus_tex said:

Electric doesn't have either issue, because near the end of each fight, enemies have no endurance to attack you

I have an electric dom and I can't say that is 100 percent true. It always looks as if I got them down to zero end but they still recover enough to launch an attack.

[Coyote]

3 hours ago, mbre2006 said:

I have an electric dom and I can't say that is 100 percent true. It always looks as if I got them down to zero end but they still recover enough to launch an attack.

 

Electric saps Endurance down to 0, but does not reliably sap Recovery. As long as mobs have positive Recovery, they will regain some Endurance once in a while, and immediately use it to launch an attack. You could keep a single mob like a boss down to 0 Recover by constantly hitting him with attacks, since most of the attacks (but not Conductive Aura) have a chance for -100% Recovery for a few seconds. Constant attacking generally keeps them at 0. But it's hard to do to groups of mobs since you only have the AoE Immob and Jolting Chain (and I'm not sure if Jolting Chain does -Recovery except on the 1st target). But it should be possible to drain a single target... of course, you won't know it, because the target will be Held also 😛

[mbre2006]

8 hours ago, Coyote said:

 

Electric saps Endurance down to 0, but does not reliably sap Recovery. As long as mobs have positive Recovery, they will regain some Endurance once in a while, and immediately use it to launch an attack. You could keep a single mob like a boss down to 0 Recover by constantly hitting him with attacks, since most of the attacks (but not Conductive Aura) have a chance for -100% Recovery for a few seconds. Constant attacking generally keeps them at 0. But it's hard to do to groups of mobs since you only have the AoE Immob and Jolting Chain (and I'm not sure if Jolting Chain does -Recovery except on the 1st target). But it should be possible to drain a single target... of course, you won't know it, because the target will be Held also 😛

Trying to zero end an entire group is nearly impossible but I'm sure someone will say they do it with ease. Best just keep them mezzed. 

[Coyote]

Electric/Poison Controller can do it, and probably an Electric/Psychic Dom since Drain Psyche has a strong -Recovery that's rarely noticed. But without some other source of -Recovery, I don't think that just Electric Control alone can do it. I mean, I have zeroed out spawns with an Ele/Earth, and due to spamming Electric Cages, they are often under a -Recovery debuff... but it's not strong enough to keep them zeroed all the time, just to slow down their rate of occasional potshots. Knockdowns also help, because if they're on the ground when they regain their sliver of Endurance, by the time they get up and attack it's probably gone. They only get to use it if they're upright and not mezzed when they regain it.

Edited December 30, 2019 by Coyote

[oedipus_tex]

Granted, most of my experience is with an Elec/Psi Dom. But Electric Dominators and Controllers can in fact zero out enemy endurance and for the most part keep it there. Enemies will occasionally get a blip of endurance back and attack, but usually only for a low value attack, and only once in a while. 

 

With Power Sink it's possible to do this even to Elite Bosses. 

 

You're right it helps if they're knocked down tho, which is why Jolting Chain, procced for damage, is such a valuable power.

 

It helps a lot if you take an Alpha slot that provides Endurance Modification. It also helps if you took Mu Mastery, where all of the powers apply -Recovery , and the pet helps keep them floored too.

 

I'm actually surprised more people haven't seen the early Electric Control strategy:

• Static Field
• Run in with Conductive Aura running
• Ping pong enemies a few times with Jolting Chain while you wait for endurance to tank
• Go all out

 

It helps a ton if you've set the game to always show enemy health bars so you can gauge when enemies are out of endurance. Other than enemies specifically resistance to endurance drain it works like a charm.

Edited December 30, 2019 by oedipus_tex

[Coyote]

1 hour ago, oedipus_tex said:

I'm actually surprised more people haven't seen the early Electric Control strategy:

• Static Field
• Run in with Conductive Aura running
• Ping pong enemies a few times with Jolting Chain while you wait for endurance to tank
• Go all out

 

It helps a ton if you've set the game to always show enemy health bars so you can gauge when enemies are out of endurance. Other than enemies specifically resistance to endurance drain it works like a charm.

 

That's EXACTLY what I do 😄 ... It does work great. Well, actually, start off with Synaptic Overload, and then go and do that. And once SO is fully slotted out, I may forego the Static Field, because at that point I want them to attack each other whenever they get up.

 

And I made a mistake earlier... for Electric Control, actually, the powers will always do -100% Recovery, making it possible to keep spawns permanently drained if you're willing to spam Electric Cages at maximum rate (the debuff is for 6 seconds, so it shouldn't be hard to keep it up permanently). I see mobs sometimes getting slivers, but it may be because activating other powers prevent me from spamming Electric Cages at max rate. And also since mobs are +1 or higher, it won't really floor them unless I wanted to slot for End Mod, which I don't plan on doing.

[Chelsea Rorec]

I'm doing the same with my elec/elec dom.

Just with conductive aura and melee attacks i floored babbage's end in the synapse TF so it's really easy to do.

And i just fought Silver Mantis and floored her end before shutdown 🙂

Static field is -end so is Fences, it all helps when trying to drain.

Jolting chains is -end also.

[Frosticus]

Prior to set bonuses, doms objectively struggle with:

- hitting +lvl enemies/debuffers as they largely lack tohit buffs

- being slot starved as both primary and secondary are fairly demanding

- endurance management as controls are costly and high rech/ds attacks chew through end

- lack of full time mez protection

- attack chain flow  seeing as many assault sets are clunky until their lvl 38 power

- encouraged to fight in melee range without armor/hp/mez protection

- lack of burst damage

- limited access to sustain powers

- lack of aoe damage prior to epics, but no shortage of aoe aggro potential

 

I wouldn't say doms are wimpy without perma-dom, but it certainly circumvents a fair number of their weaknesses. 

I would say that doms benefit as much or more than any other AT from set bonuses, IO's and team buffs though.

I personally don't think I would enjoy a dom without IO's, but once you start getting some nice set bonuses and frankenslotted powers they are an extremely enjoyable AT. 

[Chelsea Rorec]

Prior to set bonuses, doms objectively struggle with:

- hitting +lvl enemies/debuffers as they largely lack tohit buffs

I've never had a problem with this as i often take Buildup in its many forms

- being slot starved as both primary and secondary are fairly demanding

True for any AT i guess

- endurance management as controls are costly and high rech/ds attacks chew through end

The only time i have had this issues was with Earth assault

- lack of full time mez protection

True for any AT that is not a scrapper or tank etc

- attack chain flow  seeing as many assault sets are clunky until their lvl 38 power

Again i've not had an issues before lvl 38. I normally have atleast 3 attacks prior to lvl 38

- encouraged to fight in melee range without armor/hp/mez protection

Dom can do range or melee and have a good mix of attacks on 'most' power sets.

- lack of burst damage

Holds/mez means i've never needed burst damage and in those times when i have needed more damage then chewing red insps has solved most issues.

- limited access to sustain powers

Not sure what you mean by this. Do you mean a constant holds you could cast ? as no Dom really has that.

- lack of aoe damage prior to epics, but no shortage of aoe aggro potential

Most Doms get 1 AoE and are not reguarded as AoE monsters and even with epics i would not considered them AoE gods. I mainly stick to the single target attacks with the odd AoE thrown in. And honestly if you are not managing agro then you are doing something wrong.

Edited January 1, 2020 by Chelsea Rorec

[Coyote]

49 minutes ago, Chelsea Rorec said:

- hitting +lvl enemies/debuffers as they largely lack tohit buffs

I've never had a problem with this as i often take Buildup in its many forms

- being slot starved as both primary and secondary are fairly demanding

True for any AT i guess

 

Well, Power Up doesn't have a ToHit bonus, though some secondaries (Rad, Thorns, Savage, I think) have a version of Build Up with +ToHit replacing +Special.

 

Doms are more slot-starved than other ATs, because other ATs usually have defensive powers that are auto-hit. A tank's defense toggles hit it automatically, meaning that it has to slot for End Red and Resistance (or Defense). Controllers often have defensive powers like Darkest Night, that need End and -ToHit, or maybe +Defense, but not more. Blaster Sustain powers are usually auto-hit and don't need Recharge Reduction.

 

Meanwhile, Doms need to slot for their defensive effect (control) and Accuracy, and also usually Recharge. End Reduction would be nice but nobody can spare it unless it comes as part of an IO set. The extra requirement of having to slot Accuracy in all powers, both offensive (which other ATs have to do) and defensive (which other ATs generally don't have to do) sucks up 3-5 slots before the 30s. This is why they are a bit more slot-starved than most other ATs.