*Deep Breath* I'm going to suggest a Brute change now...

[Replacement]

Disclaimer: I am always willing to admit when I'm wrong.  If you think this is a terrible idea, stop before posting a reactionary, emotional response.  Remember this is just a random Suggestion forum, and spell out what you don't like about it.  I post because I like discussion, not Internet outrage.  If you're still not convinced, remember that such a change would pass through the Test server first.  Real data would absolutely be needed before shipping something like this live.

 

Ok, meat of the discussion. This is intended as a shifting of stats; not a buff or a nerf:

• Increase Brute HP by 25% (Same as Tanker), set max-max HP cap to be the same as Tanker as well
• Decrease Brute Resist Cap to 87.5%

 

What does this do?

This should result in almost no net change to their Effective HP.  Let's say you have 1000 health before the change and are hit for 1000 damage (by a damage type you resist).  It will take 10 attacks to reach your HP levels (discounting regeneration rate for now - more on that later):

:: 1000 * (1 - 0.9) = 100 damage taken. 

:: 100 damage * 10 attacks = 1000 total damage taken.

 

With this change in effect, the numbers change but the net result stays the same:

HP is now 1250

:: 1000 * (1 - 0.875) = 125 damage taken

:: 125 damage * 10 attacks = 1250 total damage taken.  10 attacks still required to hit your total HP.

 

Ok, but what's the point?   At least read this list if you intend to skip my whole post and start jamming your hate-board

1. Reduce the "before and after" gap of IOs (relative to other ATs; Brutes gain a whole additional party role through IOs)
2. Improve low-level Brute tanking (where they're really just aggro-magnet scrappers and it's painful)
3. Slightly pushes them towards lower sustained tanking, encouraging trading off aggro in longer encounters.
4. To counterpoint #3, increased regeneration lets them get back into the fray faster.  I feel this is more in theme with Brutes and Fury.

 

What about Regeneration?

Yeah, this will increase their health regeneration (as it's a function of max HP). I don't think that's problematic, I actually like that aspect.  But it does make me think the final Resist number would more likely get rounded down to 87%.

 

No, I mean Regeneration, the set

Regeneration is a weird set that would probably need work (and I've been on the record many times to say it needs some work regardless).  If you want to talk about regeneration rates, I suggest couching criticisms and concerns in the context of the more refined sets that have a Regeneration component, such as Willpower, Radiation, and I think Bio.

 

Are you sure there aren't any nerfs in this?

Ok actually, the max-max HP cap is something like current max * 1.1 (10% increase).  That means if you happen to be running a build with maxed max HP and max resist, you would see an overall Effective HP nerf.  1) I don't think anyone does this and 2) the regeneration buff from the extra base HP will probably completely offset this.

 

Ok, I have my hard-hat, coffee, and a locally-sourced cave to hide in.

[Dragon Crush]

Haven't given it much thought yet, but off the top of my head I will point out this would be major buff to defense based sets, and a buff to the off-types for resistance sets (like not-fire damage for firey aura, negative/toxic for electric, et cetera).

Can't say definitively if brutes need that sort of buff or not, just something to point out.

[Haijinx]

/jranger

[Replacement]

1 hour ago, Dragon Crush said:

Haven't given it much thought yet, but off the top of my head I will point out this would be major buff to defense based sets, and a buff to the off-types for resistance sets (like not-fire damage for firey aura, negative/toxic for electric, et cetera).

Can't say definitively if brutes need that sort of buff or not, just something to point out.

This is something I was thinking about after I posted this -- Defense sets would just get more HP.  That said, are these sets really that much different from Scrappers, anyway? 

Scenario A: these builds (really, Shield and EA) aren't capping resists, in which case they're already scrappers with some bonus health.  This would mean a buff to those sets.

Scenario B: these builds are capping some resists with IOs, in which case they're evenly impacted by this change.

 

And yeah, Health applies to all damage types, so there's some of that as well.  

 

None of that really sinks the core of the argument, which is shifting Brutes' incredible survival towards HP so that they can tank better early game and yet aren't so incredibly performance shifted by IOs (moreso than really any other class, entirely because of that Resist cap).

 

@Haijinx Cool.

Edited December 18, 2019 by Replacement

[siolfir]

The performance shift due to IOs is because their defense and resistance modifiers are lower than a Tanker's, not because of their hit points; a larger hit point pool would mean that they can stay up for another hit or two. I just don't know that it would address the point you're trying to hit.

 

I wouldn't worry about builds already at the hit point cap, though - I think the only set that can hit the Brute cap without outside buffs is Energy Aura, and only during Overload (the +hp portion is fully enhanceable for an extra ~1200 hp).

Edited December 18, 2019 by siolfir

[Replacement]

4 minutes ago, siolfir said:

The performance shift due to IOs is because their defense and resistance modifiers are lower than a Tanker's, not because of their hit points; a larger hit point pool would mean that they can stay up for another hit or two. I just don't know that it would address the point you're trying to hit.

Yep!  Not sure where I lost you but to clarify:

They start at Scrapper levels but hard-cap at Tanker levels.  This is only possible because of IO defensive performance and Brutes' far-above-normal resist cap.  This means their performance curve is way off the other ATs. 

 

Shifting survival from Resist to HP has an early-game and an end-game effect.

Early-game: Brutes' survival is a bit better, instead of just being scrappers that keep accidentally taunting everything.

End-game: smoother curve on how much survival is coming from virtue of IOs, and nothing else.

 

One thing I want to note is when looking at numbers like this, people's brains tend to always read it as "you're only increasing their damage taken by like 2%."  You have to realize what I'm actually asking for is +25% damage taken for a resist-capped Brute, because that's the difference between 87.5 and 90.

[Bossk_Hogg]

This really seems like a solution in search of a problem. There are two tank AT's. There's no need to muck with the numbers to force one into aggro swapping.

[siolfir]

1 hour ago, Replacement said:

Yep!  Not sure where I lost you but to clarify:

They start at Scrapper levels but hard-cap at Tanker levels.  This is only possible because of IO defensive performance and Brutes' far-above-normal resist cap.  This means their performance curve is way off the other ATs. 

 

Shifting survival from Resist to HP has an early-game and an end-game effect.

Early-game: Brutes' survival is a bit better, instead of just being scrappers that keep accidentally taunting everything.

End-game: smoother curve on how much survival is coming from virtue of IOs, and nothing else.

 

One thing I want to note is when looking at numbers like this, people's brains tend to always read it as "you're only increasing their damage taken by like 2%."  You have to realize what I'm actually asking for is +25% damage taken for a resist-capped Brute, because that's the difference between 87.5 and 90.

You didn't lose me on it. But they already start with higher hit points than Scrappers, you're just saying "well, give them more." With the resistances you're getting with SO slotting, you're going to be living through another hit or two above what you can already handle. It'll make a difference, just not much of one.

 

I got completely what you were doing at the resistance cap, but even you admit that's just shuffling numbers around. I only mentioned Overload because of your section on "are you sure there aren't nerfs in this" - without outside buffs, a Brute isn't hitting their hit point cap.

 

There's also the point that if you maintain Fury, a solo Brute is likely going to be doing more damage than a solo Scrapper at those levels, too - you don't have many slots to benefit from the higher damage base, which doesn't fully kick in until the late teens anyway, while Fury is just there going strong from level 1 on. So I don't think Brutes need the help at low levels. Like @Bossk_Hogg said, this seems more like a solution looking for a problem than an issue that needs to be addressed.

[Replacement]

41 minutes ago, Bossk_Hogg said:

This really seems like a solution in search of a problem. There are two tank AT's. There's no need to muck with the numbers to force one into aggro swapping.

More accurately:

There's 1 tank AT that works out of the box (and then gets overshadowed).

There's 1 AT that can tank once you're rich enough and high-enough level.

 

Now that something might happen to help tankers out, I feel like it's time to address this poor design dynamic introduced by IOs.  I am lowering the ceiling of what comes from IOs while improving their out-of-the-box performance.  

 

To reference the silly bars presented on the AT selection screen, it claims Brutes are 9 survival.  But I submit they start at 7 and scale up to 10 (or, well, they do have less hp than tankers so I suppose 9.5).

 

I also don't think this would force them into aggro swapping.  There's a reason I said slightly encourages aggro-trading.  This effect would be very slight, particularly because all heals in this game are %-based.

 

[aethereal]

Giving Brutes 90% resist caps must not've seemed like a big deal when they created the class, as almost all armor sets would at most be able to approach that cap to 1-2 damage types.

 

I forget if IOs came before or after Brutes, but IOs as they were when I played didn't really change the equation much, because at the time resist set bonuses were pathetic.

 

Then they increased resist set bonuses to parity with defense set bonuses and all of a sudden Brutes' resist caps were a very big deal.

 

They probably should've dropped their resist caps at that point down to 85% or something, but by now I think the moment has passed.  You'd be asking a LOT of people to change their builds a LOT to accommodate a change that is by design not supposed to be a big difference in play.

[siolfir]

3 minutes ago, aethereal said:

I forget if IOs came before or after Brutes,

Well after, and as you said the first group of set bonuses was almost useless for resistance bonuses.

[Replacement]

2 minutes ago, siolfir said:

You didn't lose me on it. But they already start with higher hit points than Scrappers, you're just saying "well, give them more." With the resistances you're getting with SO slotting, you're going to be living through another hit or two above what you can already handle. It'll make a difference, just not much of one.

 

I got completely what you were doing at the resistance cap, but even you admit that's just shuffling numbers around. I only mentioned Overload because of your section on "are you sure there aren't nerfs in this" - without outside buffs, a Brute isn't hitting their hit point cap.

 

There's also the point that if you maintain Fury, a solo Brute is likely going to be doing more damage than a solo Scrapper at those levels, too - you don't have many slots to benefit from the higher damage base, which doesn't fully kick in until the late teens anyway, while Fury is just there going strong from level 1 on. So I don't think Brutes need the help at low levels. Like @Bossk_Hogg said, this seems more like a solution looking for a problem than an issue that needs to be addressed.

Ok, thanks.  Yeah, this is not intended to be a buff or nerf: it's intended to smooth their progression as sitting in a spot between Scrapper and Brute.   It is abslutely just a number-shuffle.  And yeah, I forgot about Overload but I was reasonably certain no one was banking on +HP builds.

 

1 minute ago, aethereal said:

Giving Brutes 90% resist caps must not've seemed like a big deal when they created the class, as almost all armor sets would at most be able to approach that cap to 1-2 damage types.

 

I forget if IOs came before or after Brutes, but IOs as they were when I played didn't really change the equation much, because at the time resist set bonuses were pathetic.

 

Then they increased resist set bonuses to parity with defense set bonuses and all of a sudden Brutes' resist caps were a very big deal.

 

They probably should've dropped their resist caps at that point down to 85% or something, but by now I think the moment has passed.  You'd be asking a LOT of people to change their builds a LOT to accommodate a change that is by design not supposed to be a big difference in play.

IOs definitely came after Brutes (but before Going Rogue, so they were still in their own dismal red world).

 

While I agree generally with the sentiment -- two-fold, actually.  I would have nerfed Brutes back at Going Rogue and I understand the moment to do so has passed.  That's why I suggest this change that is not a nerf (in fact, my biggest concern is it will actually be a buff to a lot of not-completely-purple Defense-based brutes). 

 

I also don't think removing 2.5% resistance from your IO setup is going to constitute a big change to anyone's builds.  

[Tyrannosaur]

Regeneration was purposely broken. It is the only power nerfed without mercy for 7 straight issues. The final nail was removing the healing power and turning it into a click times power. Regens had no real resistance. Any burst damage could kill one in a shot, but they were envied and it seemed players demanded a sacrifice (especially Blasters) after PVP was introduced (nevermind an ice blaster or a radiation blaster could kill them even when Hamis were 50%). What regeneration has become is a power that must be micro managed. You spend more time worried about powers running out than not and need to really think and calculate before attacking. I had two 50 regens in the old game on liberty, I even "tanked" the hami. After the final nerf I put them "away" and went on to make 48 more 50s before the game ended - none power leveled, all had the accolades. Yeah, let's not get into God like Controllers then either or how they cut the damage power on Defenders to force them into team buff toons. Please fix Regen.

[aethereal]

I don't know how many brutes have bothered to cap resists against more than s/l, but it's potentially removing 2.5% set bonuses to several different damage types that may have driven mule powers and slotting decisions.  I think it is a big change, especially considering the sheer number of brutes out there.  It's the most-played AT, right?

 

You should also consider that your proposed change now provides a certain amount of breathing room in previously tight builds, that could cause resist-oriented brutes to get more defense or regen or recharge and thus have some larger echoing ramifications through the meta.  It just feels like we're stuck with 90% resist caps for brutes at this point.

[Wavicle]

You seem to be trying to "fix" a "problem" of brutes not being tough enough.

Thing is, it isn't a problem and it doesn't need fixing.

[HelenCarnate]

3 hours ago, siolfir said:

The performance shift due to IOs is because their defense and resistance modifiers are lower than a Tanker's, not because of their hit points; a larger hit point pool would mean that they can stay up for another hit or two. I just don't know that it would address the point you're trying to hit.

 

I wouldn't worry about builds already at the hit point cap, though - I think the only set that can hit the Brute cap without outside buffs is Energy Aura, and only during Overload (the +hp portion is fully enhanceable for an extra ~1200 hp).

Regen, Invuln, Stone and Ice can all reach the cap on their own.

[siolfir]

1 hour ago, HelenCarnate said:

Regen, Invuln, Stone and Ice can all reach the cap on their own.

The Brute hard cap on max hit points? Dull Pain (and its copies) by itself isn't enough.

 

Rounding to the nearest whole number, Brute max hp at level 50 is 1500. The hp cap is 3213. Dull Pain provides 300 enhanceable, and 300 non-enhanceable - enhance to 100% and you get +900. Accolades (+20%) will get you another 300; that totals to 2700, which is still 500 shy of the hp cap. You need another +33% max hp from somewhere. Set bonuses (particularly the Unbreakable Guard +7.5% is 113) and Rebirth Core can get you there for 10 seconds (+375) at a time, I guess, if you have overslotting to get higher than 100% heal on Dull Pain, but even then you aren't there permanently which was the whole point.

 

 

Edited December 19, 2019 by siolfir
possible ways to hit the cap briefly

[Haijinx]

This will only slightly reduce the top performance for those brutes who have capped resistances, for only those resistances they have capped.  

 

In all other cases (vast majority) its a big buff.

 

So..

 

No. 

[HelenCarnate]

1 hour ago, siolfir said:

The Brute hard cap on max hit points? Dull Pain (and its copies) by itself isn't enough.

 

Rounding to the nearest whole number, Brute max hp at level 50 is 1500. The hp cap is 3213. Dull Pain provides 300 enhanceable, and 300 non-enhanceable - enhance to 100% and you get +900. Accolades (+20%) will get you another 300; that totals to 2700, which is still 500 shy of the hp cap. You need another +33% max hp from somewhere.

 

 

Unbreakable Guard 7.5%

Brute ATO and ranged purple set 3% each for 6%

Shield Wall x3 for 2.25% Combat Jumping, Weave, Maneuvers at at minimum for 6.75%

 

That can be easily done on any of those options.  Ok so no Combat Jumping on Stone but they have other defensive options so they can still have at least 3 sets.  Add those up and now we are at needing only 12.75%.  That is pretty easy to get with a mix of additional 2.25% sets plus 1.88% and 1.5% sets which are pretty easy to get as well.  Regen also has the advantage of being able to take Spiritual Core Alpha making Dull Pain more potent. 

 

Now that being said, capping out your HP does leave your options more limited for defense and resists so that may not always be the best way to go.  I was just stating it was possible.

 

Edit. Also it may not be possible to have it perma with Stone in granite form due to the -recharge.

Edited December 19, 2019 by HelenCarnate

[nihilii]

There is really no need to buff brutes further. 😉

If you didn't intend this as a buff, consider the following: being at the resistance cap is the exception, not the rule.

Edited December 19, 2019 by nihilii

[Replacement]

17 hours ago, sacredlunatic said:

You seem to be trying to "fix" a "problem" of brutes not being tough enough.

Thing is, it isn't a problem and it doesn't need fixing.

Responding to this because that feels like only half of the proposal.  I'm not going to change your mind and that's fine -- but the goal isn't to buff brutes.  That's why I said this would of course need tested and tuned, mostly due to the increased regeneration.

10 hours ago, nihilii said:

There is really no need to buff brutes further. 😉

If you didn't intend this as a buff, consider the following: being at the resistance cap is the exception, not the rule.

Fair assessment.  It's entirely possible my point of view is based on forum-bragging where it's the expectation your build is perfect instead of the reality.

 

It's true I want low-level Brutes to tank better "naked" so to speak.  But I also want them to get less out of IOs, because they abuse them like no other AT can.   This seemed like a good compromise that wouldn't trigger the "don't nerf my brute" response.  It's a bit funny that it instead triggered the "don't buff brutes for the love of God" response (which, if you see my 2nd post, I acknowledge things I hadn't thought about while OPing).

 

I'm thinking at this point, it would simply be more realistic to increase early-level scales and have them taper off towards live values (e.g. 15% more HP at level 1, 5% more by level 30, 0% more at level 50), though it does nothing to address the IO issue.

 

@Haijinx Special call-out for coming back with respectful dissent.  You're not wrong, and the only way I know that is when you explain it.  So thank you.

Edited December 19, 2019 by Replacement

[quixoteprog]

If I understand it correctly you are advocating a nerf with a corresponding buff to "balance it out" the other change. The problem as I see it so far is (and I think someone pointed out already) that you are no nerfing resistance (or rather just the cap on resistance) and not defense whereas not all brute damage mitigation is based upon resistance. Meaning those sets that never reach the cap and depend somewhat or completely on some other mitigation type, like defense or regeneration, would get straight up buffed.

 

I don't know enough about how the sets compare really, but unless super reflexes, willpower and regeneration are currently not that good compared to resistance sets like invulnerability you will be making those sets better by comparison.

[Replacement]

14 minutes ago, quixoteprog said:

If I understand it correctly you are advocating a nerf with a corresponding buff to "balance it out" the other change. The problem as I see it so far is (and I think someone pointed out already) that you are no nerfing resistance (or rather just the cap on resistance) and not defense whereas not all brute damage mitigation is based upon resistance. Meaning those sets that never reach the cap and depend somewhat or completely on some other mitigation type, like defense or regeneration, would get straight up buffed.

 

I don't know enough about how the sets compare really, but unless super reflexes, willpower and regeneration are currently not that good compared to resistance sets like invulnerability you will be making those sets better by comparison.

Yes, this is my #1 criticism of my own proposal.  I think it will still have the expected effect on Shield Defense and Energy Aura (defense sets that have some resist in them), maybe some of the others that I'm forgetting.  But SR and WP could probably use the help and that... other set you mentioned is a topic of its own (several, in fact).

 

Basically, I really like my idea up until about level 30, and then again when people start tossing around "completed" builds, but my proposal falls apart in between those two points.

[DrRocket]

Interesting proposal, but not sure it is a good idea, and this is why

 

Say you do increase HP, so things gets better, but reducing the damage resistance cap may not seem much of an issue when you are engaging one or two.... but sadly there is a but!

 

When you take the good ole brute farming, they are taking on about a over a dozen mobs, and they are getting hit, and with reduced damage resistance, the modest increase in hp will not last long under those conditions. As a result, in my opinion, the Brute would be less survivable because the hit point lass per round is greater than the gain in regeneration and possibly in that very same round the loss of hit points could be greater than the increase of hitpoints..

[quixoteprog]

3 hours ago, DrRocket said:

Interesting proposal, but not sure it is a good idea, and this is why

 

Say you do increase HP, so things gets better, but reducing the damage resistance cap may not seem much of an issue when you are engaging one or two.... but sadly there is a but!

 

When you take the good ole brute farming, they are taking on about a over a dozen mobs, and they are getting hit, and with reduced damage resistance, the modest increase in hp will not last long under those conditions. As a result, in my opinion, the Brute would be less survivable because the hit point lass per round is greater than the gain in regeneration and possibly in that very same round the loss of hit points could be greater than the increase of hitpoints..

While I could be wrong I don't think this will be a major hit for fire farmers. (Or any other kind, S/L or Rad I think?) It may even be a zero sum change since their survival is a combination of resistance and defense.

 

And as someone who does it I don't think the game should be balanced around it AT ALL. I get a certain entertainment out of doing it as a sort of exercise in optimization, otherwise I would not do it even though it is "profitable".

 

And while I would not consider it an exploit by any means, it is taking advantage of a sort of loophole in the game "rules" and so, when weighed against the balance of the rest of the game content, I do not think it should be counted for purposes of game balance.

Edited December 19, 2019 by quixoteprog