The time has come to fix AoE Holds/Mezzes

[SeraphimKensai]

Preface: I've played City of Heroes for a very long time, and eons ago I remember being able to use Flash or Mass Confusion or Cinders, etc. to control (or later dominate) my foes. They were reliable and helped define what it meant to be a controller. But then dark times occurred, and the CoH devs decided that they would smite us for thinking that a controller could effectively control a group of would be criminals.

 

Wouldn't it be great if we could use a AoE hold or power and it recharged out of the box significantly less than the 4 minute (240 second) timer that was imposed upon us? We live in a world where DPS can nuke every group (and sometimes twice if their a sentinel), but we are stuck waiting as CONTROL BASED AT'S are left in the dust and often times not even needed...

 

I'd suggest that we go across the board and reduce the base recharge of controller and dominator AoE Mezzes from 240 to 90 seconds (I'd even compromise at the 2 minute mark).

 

As usual thanks. Any thoughts on the matter?

[Saiyajinzoningen]

i agree but i also think a higher difficulty level will make mezzes more relevant in general. Also can we switch out mass confusion for the penelope yin mind pet?

[Panthonca7034]

Problem (and I've noticed this whenever new changes are implemented):

 

Whenever you start tinkering with ANY aspect of the code (and I've observed certain other things get wonky as a result) that tinkering is going to BREAK something else entirely different which might have a dependency or hidden link to that other piece of code.

 

I'm not saying "NO don't mess with it", all I'm saying is that even some small changes can have unintended consequences (even if its just countdown timers).

 

Example: Before quick snipes were implemented by default, I noticed my sniper attack damage cut severely as a result of quicker snipes. If you're the team marksman and everyone is depending on you to take out the low hanging fruit, and your sniping damage is cut, there will be a problem when several of those enemies start piling up on the team (regardless if its just a bunch of tiny red cap hooligans, or a bunch of malta sappers). (End example).

 

I do however concur that lower mez cooldown timer for Trollers and Doms can make a HUGE difference with placating several nuisances which otherwise would nuke a whole team, as you've pointed out.

39 minutes ago, SeraphimKensai said:

the CoH devs decided that they would smite us for thinking that a controller could effectively control a group of would be criminals.

Or perhaps the devs discovered a HUGE bug/problem/anomaly that was constantly breaking something else in the code (could be spawning timers for ambushes on AE, or something else) and that's why the devs had to implement that change (Not saying THAT's exactly what happened, just trying to point out how complicated the game code is and how easy something can break).

 

My closing point: Before implementing ANY changes of ANY kind, let us consider whether or not those CHANGES will break something else, that's all.

 

And those are my thoughts/concerns 😁

Edited December 28, 2019 by Panthonca7034
replacing font for emoji...

[Leogunner]

Would probably benefit Dominators disproportionately.  

 

Recharge of AoE holds should be dependent on how much AoE control a set has.  Sets like Plant can already lockdown every spawn because Seeds isn't that long recharge.  Earth already has several AoE controls, soft and hard.  Some Controllers even have 2 AoE holds.  And with player IOs focusing on def and rech, the recharge of the holds isn't really even an issue.

[Redlynne]

Editing recharge times on powers that do no damage(!!) will not "break other things" ... it will simply make those powers more relevant in the game that is played.

 

The nerfing that occurred on AoE Controls was a double whammy o' nerfage.

Durations were cut in HALF ... and Recharge times were DOUBLED.

Practical upshot ... one QUARTER of the uptime prior to the unnecessarily excessive beatdown using a nerfbat reinforced with an iron core.

 

Imagine Scrappers, Blasters, Brutes and Stalkers doing half damage on double recharge times for the signature powers for their entire archetypes.

No, it's not a pretty picture ... and there's a reason for that.

 

 

 

Now, part of the (*cough*) ... EXCUSE ... (*ahem*) for doing the overpowered nerfing of AoE Controls was the fact that Controllers were getting Containment (so something had to be taken away for that!) and, at the time, Cryptic was preparing to release the Invention System (YEARS LATE as it turned out!) and they wanted to open up some "space" in the game meta for set bonuses to do what standard SO slotting (2x Acc, 2x Mez, 2x Rech) had been doing that entire time.  An additional complicating factor was that they wanted to nerf AoE Controls into the ground so they couldn't factor into PvP as much as they had in PvE (because Players "work the refs" when they get mezzed in PvP while PvE Foes don't complain ... ever).  On top of that, Dominators were in the works and their Domination power would double durations on mez effects, so SOMETHING had to be done to Controllers(!) in order to prevent Dominators from getting way out of hand when using directly ported Controller powersets(!).  As it turns out, the set bonuses for increasing mez durations from set bonuses were laughably puny and almost impossible to stack up to useful quantities to be noticed (like, at all) while the ability to stack global recharge was literally game changing.  Meanwhile, Controllers took their nerf "face first" just so that Dominators could show up and completely overshadow them later with Perma-Dom.

 

So if I look at a "bog standard" Level 18 Target AoE Hold such as Total Domination from Mind Control ... post-nerf (Issue 5+) it looks like this:

• Recharge: 240s
• Hold: 14.9s MAG 3
• Overpower Hold: 11.75s MAG 1
• PvP Hold: 4s MAG 4

Yes, you're reading that right.  By default, before enhancement the uptime (post-nerfing) was set to 6.2% in PvE and 1.67% in PvP.

 

Here's what that would have looked like pre-nerfbattery:

• Recharge: 120s
• Hold: 29.8s MAG 3
• Overpower Hold: 23.5s MAG 1
• PvP Hold: ... there was no PvP until Issue 4 ... and I forget what the Issue 4 PvP numbers were ...

Issue 5 patch notes ...

 

Quote

• Controllers have a new Inherent Ability called Containment. All Controllers will do double damage (+100% unenhanced base Damage) to a target (non pvp) that is Immobilized, Disoriented, Slept or Held. Increasing the non-Pet damage potential of all Controllers. This change is intended to give them a more balanced and even game-play experience throughout all of their levels.
• Controller AoE Holds, Disorients and Sleeps (and a few others like Quicksand and Ice Slick) recharge times have been increased and duration reduced, to balance the new increased damage
  • AoE Immobilize and Phase Shift powers were not affected.
  • Volcanic Gasses duration was not affected.

So pre-nerf, the default uptime was set to 24.83% in PvE (and I forget what the uptime would be in PvP).

With the standard SO slotting of the day, it was possible with 2x Acc, 2x Mez, 2x Rech SOs to achieve 49.66s duration and 72s recharge without Hasten (or 50.7s recharge with Hasten) ... for an enhanced uptime of anywhere from 69% to 97.9% on SOs alone.  If switching to HOs however, it would have been possible to achieve with 3x Acc/Mez and 3x Rech a performance of 59.6s duration and a 60s recharge without Hasten (or 44.45s with Hasten) ... for an uptime of ~100% to 134%.

 

 

 

So a much more reasonable outcome here would be to keep the "half+double" AoE Control change for Dominators ... because Dominators get Total Domination which increases their duration times ... but PARTIALLY revert the nerf that was done to Controllers.  This would be a divergence point for Controllers and Dominators on the powerset proliferation.

 

The basic idea I've got here, again using Total Domination for Mind Control as a benchmark for demonstrating the thinking here would be the following:

 

Issues 0-4 Controllers (pre-nerf, for reference):

• Recharge: 120s
• Hold: 29.8s MAG 3
• Overpower Hold: 23.5s MAG 1

Issues 5+ Controllers (post-nerf, for reference):

• Recharge: 240s
• Hold: 14.9s MAG 3
• Controller Overpower Hold: 11.75s MAG 1
• PvP Hold: 4s MAG 4

Issue 25+ Controllers (proposed changes):

• Recharge: 180s
• Hold: 22.35s MAG 3
• Overpower Hold: 17.625s MAG 1
• PvP Hold: 6s MAG 4

Issue 25+ Dominators (unchanged by proposal):

• Recharge: 240s
• Hold: 11.92s MAG 3 (+17.88s MAG 3 with Domination)
• PvP Hold: 4s MAG 4 (+4s MAG 1 with Domination)

 

 

My thinking here is that the AoE Controls for Controllers were "double nerfed" beyond what was needed in order to also copy/paste of their powers into Dominators.  The "double nerf" was cutting their durations by 50% and increasing their recharge times by 100% ... so half duration and double recharge ... in effect "ruining" the uptime on Controllers' signature Level 18 AoE Control powers across the board in order to "make room" for Domination on Dominators.

 

My thinking therefore runs towards a "revert the nerf" for Controllers and instead of doing a HALF+DOUBLE nerfing to Controllers ... instead do a QUARTER+HALF MORE instead.

 

Recharge goes from 120 to 180 ... instead of to 240.

120 x 1.5 = 180

120 x 2.0 = 240

 

Duration goes from 29.8 to 22.35 ... instead of to 14.9.

29.8 x 0.75 = 22.35

29.8 x 0.5 = 14.9

 

 

 

Note that this would still mean that the Level 18 AoE Controls would remain on "long" base recharge times for Controllers (3 minutes instead of 4) but the uptime on those powers would be markedly improved with enhancement.  With +100% duration and recharge enhancement (for example) uptimes for Controllers would change like so:

22.35 / 180 = 12.42%

22.35 x 2 = 44.7 ... and ... 180 / 2 = 90

44.7 / 90 = 49.7%

 

Now, obviously, with Hasten and additional global recharge bonuses that kind of uptime could go even higher, but the point is that with mere SO/HO slotting alone it ought to be possible to close in on a near 50% uptime on the Level 18 AoE Controls just from the native slotting in the powers themselves, which would put them in a far better place for Controllers than they are right now, looking at an uptime of around 24.8% when similarly slotted under the HALF+DOUBLE nerfing scheme they were subjected to in Issue 5.

 

I don't know about anyone else ... but that's a change that I'd be perfectly happy to see happen for Controllers on their Level 18 AoE Control powers without porting the same changes to Dominators who don't need the help (especially with Perma-Dom in their back pockets).

 

 

 

So, suffice it to say, if I were making the arguments (and if my arguments were being listened to by people in a position to Do Something) ... this would be the argument I'd be making.  If you have doubts about why I'm saying what I'm saying ... look at the math ... and decide for yourself if there is merit to be found there.

 

I yield the balance of my remaining duration to the Blasters dealing damage to all of my $Targets.

[Leogunner]

I think my main problem is this:

 

39 minutes ago, Redlynne said:

Now, obviously, with Hasten and additional global recharge bonuses that kind of uptime could go even higher, but the point is that with mere SO/HO slotting alone...

 

You know dang well the point doesn't merely lie with SO/HOs and taking into consideration IOs, you run into the problem that the nerfs were introduced to prevent: City of Statues. 

[Super Atom]

The point stops at the SO level. Powers are balanced around SO and need to stay that way.

 

 

Redlynnes post is solid.

 

 

Edited December 29, 2019 by Super Atom

[MetaVileTerror]

Take a look at the AoE Hold in the new Radiation Manipulation Set.  It has the old values for AoE Holds.
I mained Controllers back in Issue 0.  I am 110% in support of getting the Recharge and Duration of AoE Holds back toward their original Issue 0 values.

 

Here's an alternative compromise . . . give Controllers the option between two mutually exclusive Inherents!  Containment as-is for damage output.  Confinement to increase Duration of all Controls, and reduce the Cooldown on any non-damaging Control Powers.

[Crysta Clear]

Nah. IOs are easy to get and so have to be considered. Don't ever buff anything, only nerf things please. The game is easy enough as it is. Balance can't be based around SO's anymore. It literally cannot, because at the very least, basic non-set IOs are simple to get, and sets are easily acquired with merits during gameplay.

Edited December 29, 2019 by Crysta Clear

[Super Atom]

1 minute ago, Crysta Clear said:

Nah. IOs are easy to get and so have to be considered. Don't ever buff anything, only nerf things please. The game is easy enough as it is.

Absolutely not. IOs were intended to be optional. City of Heroes was always a casual based MMO that does not force people to need specific gear to do content. 1-49 would be tragic, a lot of people don't really understand the basic min/max benchmarks of making an IO'd character be to its fullest potential. Balancing around SO's is the entire reason people can make an assault rifle/ice manip and get through all content. Changing this formula would be a tragic mistake. The devs always had the mindset of fun before difficulty. If you want difficult, play on +4/x8, i do and it can be plenty challenging enough depending on enemy groups.

[Leogunner]

8 minutes ago, Super Atom said:

The point stops at the SO level. Powers are balanced around SO and need to stay that way.

 

 

Redlynnes post is solid.

 

 

You can bold and underline all you want, it still doesn't dismiss the point of the nerfs was so that every encounter didn't have teams beating on helpless statues. A 50% up time on AoE holds isn't just unnecessary but exacerbated by IOs. 

 

At best, I could see the duration for controllers buffed but keeping the recharges. AT. BEST. 

[Crysta Clear]

What's there to force? Why are you wasting your inf on garbage SO's? XD

 

Craft some plain IOs instead, they last much longer. And when you get merits at the end of an arc, spend them on things to sell, and get some IOs.

5 merits will get you at least 1.2m inf, up to 1.5m depending. If you assume the lowest I've seen boosters selling, 1.2m, and realize that low-level arcs are generally worth around 6 merits, you get a little over 1.2m per arc, with the exception of the very first few that are worth 3 merits. At 5 ~ 7m for a LotG global, that's between 6 and 7 arcs depending -- while arcs are short and missions are easy.

 

I don't even slot any enhancements until Lv. 25, and go unenhanced generally until then, save for the five prestige enhancements.

Edited December 29, 2019 by Crysta Clear

[Crysta Clear]

Quite frankly? If you can't handle the game as it is, you are not qualified to make suggestions about what you think it should be.

[Super Atom]

SO's are hardly garbage when you're level 24. If you balance around having IO's, Whats the point then? You get to 50 and die repeatedly until you IO entirely out and then you can do the content? Most people seem to miss why the devs kept it at SO level, It's not because the game was intended to be easy its because it was intended to be accessible. A casual player who plays for 1-4 hours a day can jump into pretty much any content and not be forced to grind relentlessly to get the gear he needs to play the game. City of Heroes is a casual MMO. More so, what do you do at level 35 when all your abilities are balanced around having 5 7.5% recharges, performance shifter procs, multiple purples/ATO's? Do you just wait 5 minutes for most big abilities because they expect you to have a lot of global recharge?

 

Bold and underline was actually just a mess up on my end, any good dominator will still make it attack statue simulator, any good controller as well as long as the teams damage is at least ok.

[Crysta Clear]

Purples are 50-only. You won't see purples included in pre-50 balance.

ATOs are simple and cheap to get, and can be slotted as early as 10th level. If you spent your merits on something else than ATOs and your relevant globals (LotG, GladArm, SteadProt, recoverybits for health/stamina), that is your fault and your problem.

 

If you want to use SO's, that's fine -- but you don't get to complain that your powers aren't recharging fast enough for you if you aren't willing to put in the effort to get some global recharge.

Edited December 29, 2019 by Crysta Clear

[Super Atom]

You clearly don't understand what you're even asking. You're asking sets be entirely balanced around IO's yet you think it will have no impact on pre 50? What about enemy groups, they need to be adjusted as well to match up to current IO's. Also, you don't understand the basics of balancing in this game. I wouldn't throw stones in your glass house about qualifications. I'm also not saying i use SO's at 50, I min/max entirely around the idea of soloing +4/x8. I'm just aware and understand why the game is balanced around SOs, as is most of the HC team like leandro. Luckily people who don't understand are not in charge of balancing.

[Crysta Clear]

I think I understand exactly what I'm asking. I also think you're making stupid assumptions about what I'm asking. The scope of the conversation is whiny pissy people who cry that they can't 100%-uptime their AoE holds. That is the reason the recharges and durations are where they are -- so that even with global recharge, there is still some downtime.

 

I'm not asking for any changes. I'm not asking for anything other than people who want buffs to kindly shut up and get better at the game. 🙂

 

If you could have AoE holds with 100% uptime on every set, you'd be guaranteed victory in at-level content. Why play if you are guaranteed to win? That's boring.

Edited December 29, 2019 by Crysta Clear

[Super Atom]

On a side note, dominators do not need the purposed change in the above response. Controllers maybe, not domis.

[Super Atom]

1 minute ago, Crysta Clear said:

I think I understand exactly what I'm asking, I think you're just completely taking my words out of context. The scope of the conversation is whiny pissy people who cry that they can't 100%-uptime their AoE holds. That is the reason the recharges and durations are where they are -- so that even with global recharge, there is still some downtime.

 

I'm not asking for any changes. I'm not asking for anything other than people who want buffs to kindly shut up 🙂

I think the OP probably is more whining than he is being constructive, however a lower response has a decent point about controllers. I'm not entirely sure about the %'s but you can easily test that. IMo they should start a different thread so it can be explored without the initial crying.

Edited December 29, 2019 by Super Atom

[Leogunner]

7 minutes ago, Super Atom said:

SO's are hardly garbage when you're level 24. If you balance around having IO's, Whats the point then? You get to 50 and die repeatedly until you IO entirely out and then you can do the content? Most people seem to miss why the devs kept it at SO level, It's not because the game was intended to be easy its because it was intended to be accessible. A casual player who plays for 1-4 hours a day can jump into pretty much any content and not be forced to grind relentlessly to get the gear he needs to play the game. City of Heroes is a casual MMO. More so, what do you do at level 35 when all your abilities are balanced around having 5 7.5% recharges, performance shifter procs, multiple purples/ATO's? Do you just wait 5 minutes for most big abilities because they expect you to have a lot of global recharge?

 

Bold and underline was actually just a mess up on my end, any good dominator will still make it attack statue simulator, any good controller as well as long as the teams damage is at least ok.

Well to put a fork in this argument: CURRENTLY, you know the game isn't balanced so that IOs are required not to die repeatedly. Keeping the AoE holds like they are won't suddenly cause non-IOed lvl 50s to implode in high level content. BUT, changing the duration and recharge of the hold WILL have a drastic effect on high end builds. 

[Super Atom]

I understand your point, but again this is a balance change and needs to be done at an SO level. At an SO level, controllers could use maybe the tiniest bit of an increase if you were goign to do it at all. I'm not saying you should, I'm open to exploring it and testing but I wouldn't be so rash as to say it's a very important change.

[Leogunner]

Do controllers need help? They're damn near the highest performing AT likely just below a high end dominator. They've been outstripping Defender, Tankers and even Scrappers in PvE. 

[Super Atom]

6 minutes ago, Leogunner said:

Do controllers need help? They're damn near the highest performing AT likely just below a high end dominator. They've been outstripping Defender, Tankers and even Scrappers in PvE. 

Do they need help? No. Could they benefit from a slightly recharge decrease without completely breaking everything? sure i guess. Controllers are extremely good and like i said this change is largely low priority and lets be real, probably never gonna happen.

 

I've never seen anyone go "oh great a controller on the team, we should kick him and get something better".

Edited December 29, 2019 by Super Atom

[Crysta Clear]

7 minutes ago, Super Atom said:

I think the OP probably is more whining than he is being constructive, however a lower response has a decent point about controllers. I'm not entirely sure about the %'s but you can easily test that.

It's not a decent point, though. If the AoE holds were buffed to 180 / 22.35, you would be able to give them 100% uptime when fully kitted out. There is a reason this is bad, and if I need to spell out "stunlock is bad and uninteresting" for you, then I'm sorry, but you're not worth conversing with.

[Crysta Clear]

I have quickly thrown together something slotted out for recharge in Mid's, and rather than combing through every set to find one power that is already 180 / 22.35, I have selected Waterspout from Leviathan Mastery for its 180-second recharge, and Tesla Cage from Electric Control for its 22.35-second duration, and slotted them with equal bonuses.

 

Bonus Comparison:

http://prntscr.com/qh15h2

http://prntscr.com/qh155k

 

180-second Recharge

http://prntscr.com/qh15m7

Notice how this goes down to 45.72s, or to be generous and round up, 46s?

 

22.35-second Duration

http://prntscr.com/qh15vv

Now notice how this, with the same build and the same enhancement bonuses, goes up to 47.13s, or to be generous and round down, 47s?

 

Global Recharge Requirement

http://prntscr.com/qh1641

Control sets have a large amount of varying-size recharge bonuses, and the more differently-sized bonuses your power types can slot, the more recharge you can stack. It was simple to reach this with 100% uptime via Hasten. Not cheap, but definitely simple.

 

The point I am making is that this provides a guaranteed win in most non-AV encounters, so it should not be a thing even at 50 with IOs!! Why would anyone think making it easier to stunlock a whole mob group is anything other than a terrible idea? Whatever you might think about the game and whether it should or shouldn't be balanced around SOs, it is shit boring to beat on enemies that aren't fighting back. Stop asking for the game to be made easier. It's already plenty easy as it is.

Get better at it.

Edited December 29, 2019 by Crysta Clear