Make Energy Melee great again

[Galaxy Brain]

Would it be possible to have EM deal bonus damage on stunned targets / if it procs a stun? Would also be fairly simple to give it a bit extra oomph without a crazy extra mechanic. 

[oedipus_tex]

I wonder then if it would be possible to copy some of the changes made to Dominators over to the melee sets. For Dominators, using Total Focus puts them in "Energy Focus" mode that has the following effects:
 

• Bone Smasher reduces the enemy's secondary effects (similar to Poison's Weaken power)
• Whirling Hands deals double damage.
• Power Burst (not a power available to melee) deals double damage--could be made Energy Transfer?

 

The Dom also has a small chance to automatically enter Energy Focus mode when using any attack in the set on an enemy who is Stunned.

[Leogunner]

Just putting out a question, it doesn't reflect my personal opinion of the set or the other suggested changes:

 

What changes to the powers would you think are needed to keep Energy Transfer's animation the same?

[Bossk_Hogg]

3 minutes ago, Leogunner said:

Just putting out a question, it doesn't reflect my personal opinion of the set or the other suggested changes:

 

What changes to the powers would you think are needed to keep Energy Transfer's animation the same?

Roughly a 50% damage boost, shorten recharge to 16 seconds. Energy Melee has dogshit DPA. 

 

I'm fine with long animations, but they need to break the standard damage formula to account for locking you into an attack for an eternity. People would hate a 2.67+ second animation less if it hit for more damage than 2 fast attacks chained together. It would also stop the trend to just shortening all animations. Let the big hits have long animations, but actually hit accordingly. Right now most of them just result in a loss of damage.  

[Leogunner]

1 hour ago, Bossk_Hogg said:

Roughly a 50% damage boost, shorten recharge to 16 seconds. Energy Melee has dogshit DPA. 

 

I'm fine with long animations, but they need to break the standard damage formula to account for locking you into an attack for an eternity. People would hate a 2.67+ second animation less if it hit for more damage than 2 fast attacks chained together. It would also stop the trend to just shortening all animations. Let the big hits have long animations, but actually hit accordingly. Right now most of them just result in a loss of damage.  

The reason I ask is because I just like imagining possibilities.  I've heard the various "revert the animation", "swap this animation with that" and what not variation.  I just want to hear some new ones too.

 

As I was waiting for a response, I considered one:

 

What if we kept the animation time of ET and LOWERED the damage and recharge?

 

....

 

Okay, you don't have to laugh so loudly.

 

But on top of that, the set gets the Energy Assault treatment but +4.  So each attack has a chance to give the user a charge and certain attack consume those charges.  An annoyance I ran into on my Grav/EA dominator was using an attack and getting back to back charges that go to waste because they don't stack.  So we give this set an opportunity advantage because it only has melee and a reset button called Energy Transfer.

 

So the attacks that get to spend these charges would be Barrage, Whirling Hands and Energy Transfer (Stalkers would kind of have to bite it here despite me being a Stalker fan, and only having 2 spenders, Barrage and Energy Transfer).  When Barrage consumes a charge (it will only ever consume 1), it does a bit of extra damage on each punch, each punch gets its own individual chance to apply stun increased from 10% to something like 33% and the duration of the stun is increased by 100%...but it also inflicts an irresistible -recharge debuff on yourself (something like -8% for 15sec, something you'd feel if you decided to apply the effect multiple times).  When Whirling Hands spends charges (it will only ever consume 1), it just does more energy damage.

 

The curve would be Energy Transfer, when used, consumes all charges.  With a lowish recharge and lowish damage (but long animation), it's best used when charged.  You can use it without charge but it's not very effective (still stuns though), or partially charged which does more and more damage but when fully charged it has an instantaneous PBAoE effect upon activation that has a 20ft radius "suck everything into a small area" that does moderate energy damage, massive damage to the target and some damage to yourself upon completion of the attack.

 

Yes, the whole knock toward/draw in/vectored KB hasn't been done but this could be a cool debut of the effect AND give the set a unique spot amongst the other melee sets even if it does only mediocre AoE and mid-tier ST.

 

There are variations I thought of while typing that but I'll just leave it at that since no one wants to read my long winded posts.

 

EDIT: Also, Build Up would be replaced with a duplicate that has a lower +dmg buff, higher +ToHit, longer duration (28sec or something), grant +1 charge upon activation and improved chance to charge for its duration.

Edited January 14, 2020 by Leogunner

[BrandX]

I still like the idea of giving Total Focus the Crushing Uppercut animation and Energy Transfer the Spinning Strike animation.  Faster animations, no change in damage, better looking animations. 🙂

 

No change in damage, so increase in ST DPS

[Saiyajinzoningen]

7 hours ago, Leogunner said:

The reason I ask is because I just like imagining possibilities.  I've heard the various "revert the animation", "swap this animation with that" and what not variation.  I just want to hear some new ones too.

 

As I was waiting for a response, I considered one:

 

What if we kept the animation time of ET and LOWERED the damage and recharge?

 

....

 

Okay, you don't have to laugh so loudly.

 

But on top of that, the set gets the Energy Assault treatment but +4.  So each attack has a chance to give the user a charge and certain attack consume those charges.  An annoyance I ran into on my Grav/EA dominator was using an attack and getting back to back charges that go to waste because they don't stack.  So we give this set an opportunity advantage because it only has melee and a reset button called Energy Transfer.

 

So the attacks that get to spend these charges would be Barrage, Whirling Hands and Energy Transfer (Stalkers would kind of have to bite it here despite me being a Stalker fan, and only having 2 spenders, Barrage and Energy Transfer).  When Barrage consumes a charge (it will only ever consume 1), it does a bit of extra damage on each punch, each punch gets its own individual chance to apply stun increased from 10% to something like 33% and the duration of the stun is increased by 100%...but it also inflicts an irresistible -recharge debuff on yourself (something like -8% for 15sec, something you'd feel if you decided to apply the effect multiple times).  When Whirling Hands spends charges (it will only ever consume 1), it just does more energy damage.

 

The curve would be Energy Transfer, when used, consumes all charges.  With a lowish recharge and lowish damage (but long animation), it's best used when charged.  You can use it without charge but it's not very effective (still stuns though), or partially charged which does more and more damage but when fully charged it has an instantaneous PBAoE effect upon activation that has a 20ft radius "suck everything into a small area" that does moderate energy damage, massive damage to the target and some damage to yourself upon completion of the attack.

 

Yes, the whole knock toward/draw in/vectored KB hasn't been done but this could be a cool debut of the effect AND give the set a unique spot amongst the other melee sets even if it does only mediocre AoE and mid-tier ST.

 

There are variations I thought of while typing that but I'll just leave it at that since no one wants to read my long winded posts.

 

EDIT: Also, Build Up would be replaced with a duplicate that has a lower +dmg buff, higher +ToHit, longer duration (28sec or something), grant +1 charge upon activation and improved chance to charge for its duration.

wouldn't it be easier to play savage melee or street justice which have this mechanic but shorter animations?

[Leogunner]

1 hour ago, Saiyajinzoningen said:

wouldn't it be easier to play savage melee or street justice which have this mechanic but shorter animations?

But it doesn't have the same mechanics. Those sets consume all their charges no matter which skill. They also don't have the unique (draw in) effect.

[Saiyajinzoningen]

im gonna play the card occam's razor. 

 

you solution, Change the entire dynamic of how energy melee works + a mechanic that doesnt yet exist

 

OR

 

reducing the cast time on 1 or more abilities

 

both ideas would make the the set more viable than its current incarnation but which one would be easier to implement? 

[Ry]

I miss Energy Transfer's old animation so much. Good Lord how I miss it. It was a force palm, a very satisfying looking SLAP.

 

Like, POW! PAP PAP! Take that!

 

Now it feels like a Dragon Ball Z move charging up with a lot less oomph. Kinda like waiting for a Spirit Bomb only for it to do no damage. Like, I know it -does- damage, I know a number appears.. but I dunno, it just doesn't feel as great. And I've yet to see anyone run Energy Melee on Homecoming, with all the changes we've had recently (Kinetics on Masterminds, for example) would changing the animation back to how it was REALLY break the game? I mean... really?

 

C'maaaannnnn....

[siolfir]

12 hours ago, oedipus_tex said:

I wonder then if it would be possible to copy some of the changes made to Dominators over to the melee sets. For Dominators, using Total Focus puts them in "Energy Focus" mode that has the following effects:
 

• Bone Smasher reduces the enemy's secondary effects (similar to Poison's Weaken power)
• Whirling Hands deals double damage.
• Power Burst (not a power available to melee) deals double damage--could be made Energy Transfer?

 

The Dom also has a small chance to automatically enter Energy Focus mode when using any attack in the set on an enemy who is Stunned.

Dominator Whirling Hands also has a 15' radius instead of 8'; double damage Energy Transfer would still be 0 damage on a dead mob because it hits so slowly on top of having to wait until it's "charged", plus the "critical" mechanic for Stalkers erasing the self-damage rather than increasing damage indicates that there's a lack of desire for even doing that.

 

11 hours ago, Bossk_Hogg said:

11 hours ago, Leogunner said:

What changes to the powers would you think are needed to keep Energy Transfer's animation the same?

Roughly a 50% damage boost, shorten recharge to 16 seconds. Energy Melee has dogshit DPA. 

 

I'm fine with long animations, but they need to break the standard damage formula to account for locking you into an attack for an eternity. People would hate a 2.67+ second animation less if it hit for more damage than 2 fast attacks chained together. It would also stop the trend to just shortening all animations. Let the big hits have long animations, but actually hit accordingly. Right now most of them just result in a loss of damage.  

Let's not lie about it: even with the longer animation Energy Transfer has the best DPA in the set as long as the damage goes through. Total Focus is second. The problem is that in both cases the damage lands at the end of a very long animation, you still take the self damage from ET even if the mob is already dead, and because the animations are so long any miss is a huge hit in DPS.

 

9 hours ago, Leogunner said:

What if we kept the animation time of ET and LOWERED the damage and recharge?

 

<snip>

 

So the attacks that get to spend these charges would be Barrage, Whirling Hands and Energy Transfer (Stalkers would kind of have to bite it here despite me being a Stalker fan, and only having 2 spenders, Barrage and Energy Transfer).  When Barrage consumes a charge (it will only ever consume 1), it does a bit of extra damage on each punch, each punch gets its own individual chance to apply stun increased from 10% to something like 33% and the duration of the stun is increased by 100%...but it also inflicts an irresistible -recharge debuff on yourself (something like -8% for 15sec, something you'd feel if you decided to apply the effect multiple times).  When Whirling Hands spends charges (it will only ever consume 1), it just does more energy damage.

 

The curve would be Energy Transfer, when used, consumes all charges.  With a lowish recharge and lowish damage (but long animation), it's best used when charged.  You can use it without charge but it's not very effective (still stuns though), or partially charged which does more and more damage but when fully charged it has an instantaneous PBAoE effect upon activation that has a 20ft radius "suck everything into a small area" that does moderate energy damage, massive damage to the target and some damage to yourself upon completion of the attack.

 

Yes, the whole knock toward/draw in/vectored KB hasn't been done but this could be a cool debut of the effect AND give the set a unique spot amongst the other melee sets even if it does only mediocre AoE and mid-tier ST.

 

There are variations I thought of while typing that but I'll just leave it at that since no one wants to read my long winded posts.

 

EDIT: Also, Build Up would be replaced with a duplicate that has a lower +dmg buff, higher +ToHit, longer duration (28sec or something), grant +1 charge upon activation and improved chance to charge for its duration.

Long animation, low damage, applies self-damage, requires a charge-up to be useful... IMO that would just make Energy Transfer another skippable power in the set.

There's also no reason for applying a -recharge penalty on the user of Barrage for a damage bonus, especially given the gimmick mechanics of other sets which don't apply self-penalties for their combo mechanics, plus we're back into the "let's just nerf Build Up and add a combo gimmick to every set to 'fix' it" instead of just making a set of solid powers to start with. Some people don't want combos.

 

It's an idea for a possible new melee set, but it wouldn't make me want to play EM.

Edited January 14, 2020 by siolfir
edits on "double damage ET" response

[Leogunner]

2 hours ago, Saiyajinzoningen said:

im gonna play the card occam's razor. 

 

you solution, Change the entire dynamic of how energy melee works + a mechanic that doesnt yet exist

 

OR

 

reducing the cast time on 1 or more abilities

 

both ideas would make the the set more viable than its current incarnation but which one would be easier to implement? 

I didn't post trying to make the simplest solution. I posted to hear unique solutions. I even said it in my first post. 

[Saiyajinzoningen]

my bad i thought were were discussing realistic solutions

[Troo]

6 minutes ago, Leogunner said:

I didn't post trying to make the simplest solution. I posted to hear unique solutions. I even said it in my first post. 

I may have missed that.. sorries.

 

Just change the set back.

[JPax]

1 minute ago, Saiyajinzoningen said:

my bad i thought were were discussing realistic solutions

There's lots wrong with energy melee. Changing this one thing doesn't fix that. Why would you berate someone for wanting to explore possibilities...

[Troo]

11 minutes ago, JPax said:

There's lots wrong with energy melee. Changing this one thing doesn't fix that. Why would you berate someone for wanting to explore possibilities...

Just change the set back and we'll see what's 'wrong with' it.

 

For clarity, your statement "There's lots wrong with energy melee. Changing this one thing doesn't fix that." is incorrect in too many ways. So much so I feel I've been trolled.

 

Edited January 14, 2020 by Troo

[Leogunner]

2 hours ago, siolfir said:

Dominator Whirling Hands also has a 15' radius instead of 8'; double damage Energy Transfer would still be 0 damage on a dead mob because it hits so slowly on top of having to wait until it's "charged", plus the "critical" mechanic for Stalkers erasing the self-damage rather than increasing damage indicates that there's a lack of desire for even doing that.

 

Let's not lie about it: even with the longer animation Energy Transfer has the best DPA in the set as long as the damage goes through. Total Focus is second. The problem is that in both cases the damage lands at the end of a very long animation, you still take the self damage from ET even if the mob is already dead, and because the animations are so long any miss is a huge hit in DPS.

 

Long animation, low damage, applies self-damage, requires a charge-up to be useful... IMO that would just make Energy Transfer another skippable power in the set.

There's also no reason for applying a -recharge penalty on the user of Barrage for a damage bonus, especially given the gimmick mechanics of other sets which don't apply self-penalties for their combo mechanics, plus we're back into the "let's just nerf Build Up and add a combo gimmick to every set to 'fix' it" instead of just making a set of solid powers to start with. Some people don't want combos.

 

It's an idea for a possible new melee set, but it wouldn't make me want to play EM.

What do you mean "and we're back to"? Alternate mechanics for build up is relatively unique compared with how many iterations of build up we work with now. Adding mechanics to make the powers less static is the purpose. 

 

As for my specific suggestions, they were more just off the top of my head. The penalty on barrage is because the added damage would likely turn the tier 1 attack into a tier 2 and if applying stuns that has a chance to stack and last 8+sec, you'd start getting some ridiculous stuns. 

 

The concept of a self penalizing set interests me and if providing a good enough consolation, or a means of regulating the downside is an aspect I'm mentally exploring with this suggestion. 

 

I think the other types of self penalizing powers are the tier 9s but they put a ridiculous huge effect out with a penalty that often is too great to self mitigate (and if it can be self mitigated, it's usually to the extreme to be ignored like EA's tier 9). I'm looking at doing something more mild but also severe enough to have an effect on your actions. 

[Saiyajinzoningen]

i apologize if it seemed like i was berating; but with limited staff and resources it just seems like the simpler solution is more realistic than wide scale sweeping changes to an under-performing powerset. 

[Leogunner]

14 minutes ago, Saiyajinzoningen said:

my bad i thought were were discussing realistic solutions

I blame that you made the thread a poll with only 3 options, 2 of which are generic changes. 

[Saiyajinzoningen]

4 minutes ago, Leogunner said:

I blame that you made the thread a poll with only 3 options, 2 of which are generic changes. 

forgive me, ive never created a poll before. As this was my 1st attempt please overlook this.

[Leogunner]

Just now, Saiyajinzoningen said:

forgive me, ive never created a poll before. As this was my 1st attempt please overlook this.

Well I kind of already did. I'm still talking about suggestions to improve energy melee. 

 

For a more realistic change, I already read someone say the devs are going to be looking at energy assault as a possible template. Someone suggested in another thread, to keep the current animation (since some people like it) ET would have the regular animation when not charged and the old fast animation when charged. Tack on the other two charge spenders on WH and Bone Smasher, figure something out for Stun and that's probably it. 

 

The reason I embellished my suggestion is to combat the annoyance of getting a 2nd charge right after the first this wasting it... Then getting no charges until I just give up on random and use TF. 

[siolfir]

1 hour ago, Leogunner said:

What do you mean "and we're back to"? Alternate mechanics for build up is relatively unique compared with how many iterations of build up we work with now. Adding mechanics to make the powers less static is the purpose. 

 

As for my specific suggestions, they were more just off the top of my head. The penalty on barrage is because the added damage would likely turn the tier 1 attack into a tier 2 and if applying stuns that has a chance to stack and last 8+sec, you'd start getting some ridiculous stuns. 

 

The concept of a self penalizing set interests me and if providing a good enough consolation, or a means of regulating the downside is an aspect I'm mentally exploring with this suggestion. 

 

I think the other types of self penalizing powers are the tier 9s but they put a ridiculous huge effect out with a penalty that often is too great to self mitigate (and if it can be self mitigated, it's usually to the extreme to be ignored like EA's tier 9). I'm looking at doing something more mild but also severe enough to have an effect on your actions. 

Color-coded for the points I'm addressing:

 

Sets that have an "alternate" Build Up for non-Stalkers: Claws, Dark Melee, Dual Blades, Kinetic Melee, Psionic Melee, Radiation Melee, Savae Melee, Staff Fighting, Street Justice, Super Strength, and Titan Weapons. Somehow I don't find them relatively unique.

 

Barrage already does more damage than Energy Punch (although worse DPA) and Energy Melee has several powers that stack stuns already.

 

The other self-penalizing powers that were attacks (crashing nukes) were also changed to not have the penalty. 

 

52 minutes ago, Leogunner said:

Well I kind of already did. I'm still talking about suggestions to improve energy melee. 

 

For a more realistic change, I already read someone say the devs are going to be looking at energy assault as a possible template. Someone suggested in another thread, to keep the current animation (since some people like it) ET would have the regular animation when not charged and the old fast animation when charged. Tack on the other two charge spenders on WH and Bone Smasher, figure something out for Stun and that's probably it. 

 

The reason I embellished my suggestion is to combat the annoyance of getting a 2nd charge right after the first this wasting it... Then getting no charges until I just give up on random and use TF. 

Energy Melee doesn't currently have a combo system. I'm tired of combo systems and the "well, if this hits first then this happens" mechanics in the newer melee sets (DB Combos, StJ Combos, Insight, Contamination, Momentum, etc). If I want to play a set that does that, there are several available.

 

Energy Transfer doesn't need a Momentum mechanic; the slowest non-Momentum attack in Titan Weapons is 0.03 seconds longer than Energy Transfer - so the same Arcanatime - and it's an AoE hitting a 120 degree cone for 57% of the damage that ET does to a single target. If they want to keep the animation in the set, give it to Total Focus. That speeds it up also and the "look at my hands" part could be construed as focusing on them (to fit the name).

Edited January 14, 2020 by siolfir
recoloring response

[BrandX]

5 hours ago, Ry said:

I miss Energy Transfer's old animation so much. Good Lord how I miss it. It was a force palm, a very satisfying looking SLAP.

 

Like, POW! PAP PAP! Take that!

 

Now it feels like a Dragon Ball Z move charging up with a lot less oomph. Kinda like waiting for a Spirit Bomb only for it to do no damage. Like, I know it -does- damage, I know a number appears.. but I dunno, it just doesn't feel as great. And I've yet to see anyone run Energy Melee on Homecoming, with all the changes we've had recently (Kinetics on Masterminds, for example) would changing the animation back to how it was REALLY break the game? I mean... really?

 

C'maaaannnnn....

 

Agreed!  My main at the time was a WP/EM Tank and the devs changing that animation, killed the set for me.

 

I still don't like the animation, but I still love the pink pom poms 🙂

 

I liked how I could go about stacking stuns, high ST damage, the animation of Whirling Hands and that it may not be AOE king, but it at least had a PBAOE attack.

[Leogunner]

1 hour ago, siolfir said:

Energy Melee doesn't currently have a combo system. I'm tired of combo systems and the "well, if this hits first then this happens" mechanics in the newer melee sets (DB Combos, StJ Combos, Insight, Contamination, Momentum, etc). If I want to play a set that does that, there are several available.

That's a very oversimplification of those sets' mechanics. But if that's your opinion on the new sets, then I don't really have anything to discuss with you. 

 

1 hour ago, siolfir said:

Energy Transfer doesn't need a Momentum mechanic; the slowest non-Momentum attack in Titan Weapons is 0.03 seconds longer than Energy Transfer - so the same Arcanatime - and it's an AoE hitting a 120 degree cone for 57% of the damage that ET does to a single target. If they want to keep the animation in the set, give it to Total Focus. That speeds it up also and the "look at my hands" part could be construed as focusing on them (to fit the name).

Now you're changing Total Focus animation as well as changing other ATs that get access to TF. 

 

Just saying, if you wanted to give both sides what they want, the 2nd suggestion I pointed out does that. 

[siolfir]

38 minutes ago, Leogunner said:

That's a very oversimplification of those sets' mechanics. But if that's your opinion on the new sets, then I don't really have anything to discuss with you. 

 

Now you're changing Total Focus animation as well as changing other ATs that get access to TF. 

 

Just saying, if you wanted to give both sides what they want, the 2nd suggestion I pointed out does that. 

It was meant to be a simplification for brevity's sake. Yes, the Dual Blades combo mechanic is similar to but different than the Street Justice combo mechanic because you have to do these powers in this order for one while the other gets combo points and each point boosts a subset of the powers, all of which is different than Titan Weapons' Momentum, which is different than the Contamination mechanic which is remarkably similar to the suggestions I've seen about adding AoE splash damage to Energy Melee after some named effect is triggered or built up. I'm not outright against the concept. But I certainly don't need more of it.

 

I also used the word "if" for changing the animation for Total Focus, as a response to "people want to keep the animation" - I don't want to keep it and would rather just have the sped up (or really, not slowed down) version of Total Focus that Dominators get. Which in itself is a great example of how changing the animations for one AT doesn't mean that they have to change it for others.

 

Edited January 14, 2020 by siolfir
specifying Total Focus as the power