Star Trek

[ShardWarrior]

Great debates about this over on the STO forums over the years.

 

As for the Discovery haters out there, this is nothing new to Star Trek.  Some folk here were either were not alive or too young to remember the outrage over TNG when it was first announced.  Watch the documentary "Chaos on the Bridge" that Shatner produced.  The people directly involved with TNG and beyond talk about it quite a bit. 

 

We may not like the newer stuff and that is perfectly reasonable.  Enough people out there do like it (yes even those truly awful JJ-Trek films) that the studio keeps making it. The IP has to evolve and change to keep current and relevant.  If new stuff does not appeal to you, then just do not watch it.  There are volumes of the older Trek episodes and films on streaming media to enjoy.

Edited January 13, 2020 by ShardWarrior

[Rathulfr]

On 1/11/2020 at 6:55 PM, boggo2300 said:

After season one of Discovery I couldn't force myself to watch the second season, which I am quite willing to believe is much improved, I just can't face more Star Trek disappointment

This is why I'll be avoiding Picard, as well.

[Rathulfr]

On 1/11/2020 at 7:15 PM, Apparition said:

I don't watch TV-MA rated programs, although because it's Star Trek I forced myself to give Discovery a chance but stopped after the fifth episode.

I couldn't get past the first two episodes of STD (and all that acronym implies).

[ShardWarrior]

5 minutes ago, Rathulfr said:

This is why I'll be avoiding Picard, as well.

I will at least give it a try.  The first season of TNG was truly awful, but the show found its footing. 

[Rathulfr]

On 1/12/2020 at 4:43 AM, boggo2300 said:

I suspect Discoveries biggest stumbling block is The Orville, even as a comedy show it feels much truer to the flavour of Trek, there is obviously a lot of love for Star Trek there, which as has been explained now seems missing from Discovery

The Orville is better Star Trek than STD because it's made by people who know and love the source material better than those hired to make STD in the first place.  This is STD's fundamental problem, and no amount of "wait, it got better in the second season" is going to fix that.

 

[Rathulfr]

15 hours ago, Redlynne said:

Let's put it this way.

 

The Orville is a Love Letter to Star Trek fans.

Discovery is a Ransom Demand to Star Trek fans.

Wow, perfect summation.  I will be stealing -- ahem -- using this metaphor from now on.

[boggo2300]

2 hours ago, Rathulfr said:

This is why I'll be avoiding Picard, as well.

sadly, I think I'm in the same boat with Picard as well, unless some trusted sources rave about it, I expect to just avoid it

[Haijinx]

4 hours ago, ShardWarrior said:

Except it was not stolen.  Feel free to believe whatever you want to believe, but the case was dismissed and for good reason.

Seems like awfully big coincidences there. 

 

Some of the games imagery could double as concept art for the show.

 

The Plagiarism article I linked showed how it would be extremely hard to prove legal plagiarism in the case, before it was dismissed.

 

Citing the fact that Big Media Corporation can beat little guy in court doesn't really prove anything. 

 

Even if lawyers were equal, it still would only prove a legal definition was not reached.

 

Instead I would like to see something that explains why those images and story ideas are so similar by chance.  And why the games ideas seem to predate the shows ideas. 

 

 

[Haijinx]

Ill add that I'm the one that liked Discovery.

 

And Science Fiction stories are traditionally very derivative of earlier works. 

 

Herbert tried to sue Star Wars over borrowing ideas from Dune.  Lucas tried to sue BSG over borrowing ideas frome Star Wars ..  etc.  Those didn't go anywhere. 

 

But there's derivative and then there is blatantly copying ideas.  I'm trying to understand why the ss couple looks the same.  Why the blue field around one of the crew looks the same, etc.  

 

Id love to see the STD concept story boards of certain things like the spore drive. 

 

 

Edited January 13, 2020 by Haijinx

[Redlynne]

7 hours ago, Rathulfr said:

23 hours ago, Redlynne said:

Let's put it this way.

 

The Orville is a Love Letter to Star Trek fans.

Discovery is a Ransom Demand to Star Trek fans.

Wow, perfect summation.  I will be stealing -- ahem -- using this metaphor from now on.

 

 

 

I have my moments ... ^_~

[ShardWarrior]

15 hours ago, Haijinx said:

Citing the fact that Big Media Corporation can beat little guy in court doesn't really prove anything. 

Sure it does.  It shows the case was dismissed because it was a non-starter.  If there were a case, it would not have been dismissed.  I find it very unlikely that an indy game no one ever heard of before was plagarized for a TV show.

15 hours ago, Haijinx said:

Instead I would like to see something that explains why those images and story ideas are so similar by chance.  And why the games ideas seem to predate the shows ideas. 

You are assuming that the game was an original concept.  I will try to locate the thread (which has since been closed) on the STO forums where several posters linked to other sci fi works - pre-dating anything that indy game developer did - that include interstellar travel using tardigrades, mycelial networks and the like. 

[Haijinx]

6 hours ago, ShardWarrior said:

Sure it does.  It shows the case was dismissed because it was a non-starter.  If there were a case, it would not have been dismissed.  I find it very unlikely that an indy game no one ever heard of before was plagarized for a TV show.

 

You get that the legal system in the US is biased towards those with the most money and most expensive lawyers, right?

 

 

[ShardWarrior]

1 hour ago, Haijinx said:

You get that the legal system in the US is biased towards those with the most money and most expensive lawyers, right?

I never inferred anything of the sort one way or the other.  Even if it were, that does not mean that the law is written and applied to always render verdicts in favor of those with more money.  Sometimes there truly is no case.  I understand that people want to "root for the little guy" and decry the evil corporation.  

[Haijinx]

4 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

I never inferred anything of the sort one way or the other.  Even if it were, that does not mean that the law is written and applied to always render verdicts in favor of those with more money.  Sometimes there truly is no case.  I understand that people want to "root for the little guy" and decry the evil corporation.  

My point was that just pointing out the case was dismissed does not mean the ideas were not stolen. 

 

And its less likely to be proof of that in a court case where the sides are unequal. 

 

Its a pretty high bar to prove plagiarism in works like this.  And being unable to prove plagiarism does not mean things were not lifted wholesale.

 

However there is some reason these works have so many similarities in concepts, and even visuals.  There are similarities beyond just the tartagrade. 

 

It makes no sense the artwork for two of the characters in a SS relationship closely resemble the doctor and the engineers in STD for example.  That's a pretty big coincidence.  Assuming the relative dates are accurate, I'm at a loss to come up with an alternative explanation.

 

As to the obscurity of the game ... well that's just it.  If you are stealing someone's work, you should pick something obscure.  Less likely you will get caught. 

 

Usually the big studio has the sense to buy the obscure IP so these accusations are not made.  Usually for peanuts. 

 

I will point out the game this little guy was making is now ruined.  So if Discovery did steal the guys work, they also destroyed it.  

[ShardWarrior]

5 hours ago, Haijinx said:

My point was that just pointing out the case was dismissed does not mean the ideas were not stolen. 

In the eyes of the law, yes it does.  No one here was in the courtroom and has read all of the documents or listened to the arguments made.  We are only seeing part of what went on because it makes it a more interesting news story. 

 

5 hours ago, Haijinx said:

Usually the big studio has the sense to buy the obscure IP so these accusations are not made.  Usually for peanuts.

You are again assuming they even knew about it to buy the idea in the first place.  Keep in mind this is the same studio who for decades never once cared about fan films being made using their property - even encouraged them - until an idiot took advantage of that and essentially tried to steal from them, ruining fan productions forever.  That door swings both ways.

 

Anyway, I can see it is pointless to attempt to have a discussion on this. 

[Haijinx]

3 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

 

 

Anyway, I can see it is pointless to attempt to have a discussion on this. 

Seems rather PA.  You might not convince me, but you might convince other people. 

 

As to the legal bit.  Sure legally they did not plagiarize.  That doesn't automatically follow it was their work in truth.

 

I am interested in knowing why there were such similarities if the dates are as suggested.  It seems to stretch credulity such things evolved completely independent of each other. 

 

 

 

[ShardWarrior]

16 hours ago, Haijinx said:

Seems rather PA.  You might not convince me, but you might convince other people. 

 

As to the legal bit.  Sure legally they did not plagiarize.  That doesn't automatically follow it was their work in truth.

 

I am interested in knowing why there were such similarities if the dates are as suggested.  It seems to stretch credulity such things evolved completely independent of each other.

 

I was not being passive aggressive nor am I trying to change anyone's mind - just adding my own personal view.  It seems to me that you have your mind made up in that the big evil corporation stole the idea from the little  guy, so no point in continuing the discussion.  Being similar does not mean there was anything nefarious going on, and having only part of the information from a few articles here and there is not the whole picture.   I do not know if the records of the case are sealed or part of the public record.  If the latter, perhaps doing the research and looking at all the information and facts provided in the court proceedings may answer your question.  As I said earlier, believe whatever you want to believe. 

[Haijinx]

1 hour ago, ShardWarrior said:

I was not being passive aggressive nor am I trying to change anyone's mind - just adding my own personal view.  It seems to me that you have your mind made up in that the big evil corporation stole the idea from the little  guy, so no point in continuing the discussion.  Being similar does not mean there was anything nefarious going on, and having only part of the information from a few articles here and there is not the whole picture.   I do not know if the records of the case are sealed or part of the public record.  If the latter, perhaps doing the research and looking at all the information and facts provided in the court proceedings may answer your question.  As I said earlier, believe whatever you want to believe. 

More a case of realizing that law and truth are not the same thing.

 

And that a big corporation is not fighting fair with a small indie company in the courtroom.  

 

Besides the fact plagiarism is hard to prove.  

 

Your linked article seemed only to include stuff about the Tardigrade.  Maybe that's all the court case covered.  

 

But in the assertions prior to the case, several other similarities were noted.  

 

If I do the same book for a book report as you do.  That's a weird coincidence.  If I also decide to do the same science project and my current events article is the same, and my art collage looks a lot like yours its suspicious.

 

That's why I wondered about the timing of STD concept materials.  And how they may have varied.

 

If you are right, then STD (and this indie game) are both highly derivative works.  Which is normal for sci fi, if a bit unimpressive.  

 

But if Redlynne's suggestion is right, then some small game company was basically ruined by a large media company, all because some of their creative team lacked integrity.  

 

As otherwise noted apparently not the same team that gave us earlier Treks.  But people new to Science Fiction.  

 

 

[ShardWarrior]

Like I said, believe whatever you want to believe. 

[Redlynne]

4 hours ago, ShardWarrior said:

Like I said, believe whatever you want to believe. 

I'm gonna believe that there IS a Queen of England ...

[ShardWarrior]

11 hours ago, Redlynne said:

I'm gonna believe that there IS a Queen of England ...

This is a movie screaming for a sequel!

[Redlynne]

9 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

This is a movie screaming for a sequel!

Okay, the spider's new ...

[ShardWarrior]

49 minutes ago, Redlynne said:

Okay, the spider's new ...

I have an alt named Arachnos Deathicus 😁

[Marine X]

Trek has evolved over the years in some ways that make it hard to be a fan of all its versions.

TOS was a classic and always will be what hard core fans will judge any new Trek against, what they were able to do, in a show that ran in 1966-1968, was astoundingly groundbreaking. They created a solid World of politics and Alien cultures that was very believable and engaging. Add lots of Cowboy diplomacy and you have a Classic, even if CBS didn't see it at the time.

 

When they announced ST: The Next Generation, I thought it was a horrible idea.... Shows what I know. It took a while for it to find it's place Story wise, but once it did I believe that it set a new bar for SciFi on television as far as Writing and Production. Great Cast and Crew.

 

I was actually looking forward to Deep Space Nine when they announced it. The Berman Era yeilded the most Unappreciated Series of the Catalogue. It was very much Anti-Trek Trek as the Characters were always in turmoil with each other. The serialized format of the show was a breath of fresh air after TNGs monster of the week format and made the series my favorite.

 

Voyager is not a bad Series, period. But is it a great Trek show, not sure. Was it the female Captain that made people not respond well to it? probably ( although it had good viewership numbers, no one apparently watched/liked it, hmmm ). I liked it for what made it different, no Star Fleet to call in, and whether to still hold to those values, tough to do sometimes. Villains that were ruthless, the Vidians , the Kazon, the Hirogen, Species 8472 and of course, The Borg. Does not get a lot of credit for the fact that Voyager is a small ship a long way from Home.

 

Enterprise was going to be an uphill battle from the word go. It was going to be hard to accept that communicators were all they had in an era of smartphones. That at launch, Enterprise didn't have Phasors, only torpedos. That Shields were not yet available, and probably the most jarring, No Federation of Planets, Vulcans were usually an antagonist and our primary enemies for the series are groups never before mentioned in Trek Lore even though it takes place before TOS. Some didn't like Scott Bakula. I thought that although the story seemed to keep exposing what it would really be like to explore space before you really had friends and acquaintances out there, most viewers just would bring up a laundry list as to why TNG or TOS were so much better. Guess I preferred a change of direction instead of another Cookie Cutter show, that's really all.

 

Discovery started slow but is doing well in creating a whole new narrative in an era we know little about, much like Enterprise, but not trying as hard to be realistic, instead being very Creative with there direction. the fact Saru's species is considered a delicacy is very wierd. I like it, can I keep it?

 

Star Trek: Picard. I guess we'll see, soon.

 

Star Trek: First Frontier, guess we'll see it and then judge, they have got a great team from what I hear, and are in uncharted waters, could be the Feature film producers need to hire these guys.

 

The films....... All good for different reasons and to different degrees. Wrath of Kahn and First Contact are my 2 Favorites, followed by Voyage Home, Search for Spock, and Generations. The other films are good, just not something I would rewatch as much. To me, the movies are like an extended TV episode and I have episodes I like better than some of the Features.

 

Kelvin Timeline: Probably was the best way to reboot without stepping on a million toes, and It allows for their to be some uncertainty as to the way things would play out.

Understanding that half the original cast is no longer with us, and even TNG, DS9 and STV casts are getting long in the tooth it was inevitable. I enjoyed them in that context and will continue to see what the come up with.

 

To answer the OP: I am a Science Fiction fan and Star Trek fan, not that I consider them 2 different things. I also liked Lexx which was comedic but also SciFi, Doctor Who, Battlestar Galactica, Invisible Man on SciFi Channel and Sliders. I could fill a page full of books and Movies, but my all time favorite is still Gattaca, such a great movie with the SciFi  elements very subtle and the story very to the front.

 

I think I need a new keyboard....

[VileTerror]

Lexxxxxxxxxxxx!  Yes!

Freaky Canadian-German softcore antihero borderline-offensive nearly-nonsense science fiction!

 

The other two series I really like from that era are Farscape and Stargate SG-1.