Revisit the Energy Melee nerfs

[Troo]

 Someone said there are plenty of players out there who are happy with and want to play sets that are single target focused. To which you replied:

On 5/16/2020 at 10:01 PM, ZeeHero said:

I didnt say that it was I said that even if it  wont be changed to aoe focus it needs a lot more aoe than it has now since what it has now is unnaceptable for any set. 

Then you doubled down with opinions stated as facts:

On 5/17/2020 at 9:19 AM, ZeeHero said:

AOE is far more useful than high ST in 99.9% of COH. that means EVERY set needs decent aoe, whether some are better at it or not..

Now, a month later, tripling down with the same premise while also weirdly hedging:

4 hours ago, ZeeHero said:

What misconception? Aoe is king in like 90% of the game. every set needs decent aoe, not every set needs to be aoe god. Energy Melee need not be as awesome as TW for aoe but it darn better be beter than it is now for aoe.

Maybe next month AoE will be king in 80% of the game.. and then 70%..

 

"Misconception" = Having read the same opinion a third time, it is clear your opinions on the subject are simply poppycock. (that means: nonsense)

[Leogunner]

6 hours ago, Troo said:

 Someone said there are plenty of players out there who are happy with and want to play sets that are single target focused. To which you replied:

Then you doubled down with opinions stated as facts:

Now, a month later, tripling down with the same premise while also weirdly hedging:

Maybe next month AoE will be king in 80% of the game.. and then 70%..

 

"Misconception" = Having read the same opinion a third time, it is clear your opinions on the subject are simply poppycock. (that means: nonsense)

Opinions can change, no need to berate for that.

 

Personally speaking, I still feel that adding the Energy Assault set's Energize mechanic would give the set a bit of dynamic-ness to its gameplay that doesn't step on the toes of people that want a more simplistic set.  The energize mechanic is very simple and you don't even have to try to use it, it can just organically benefit you on occasion just like a Scrapper's crits occasionally benefit it.  I have, however, conceded that keeping the set ST oriented has become my shared opinion on what the set should be targeted toward.  Slightly speeding up TF and ET animations would also be good.  Having spent more time with the set recently, I don't feel ET needs the speedy animation anymore.  It would be nice, but I actually like ET's animation.  If anything, I'd want to exaggerate the flashiness of it, giving the character a large aura of energy that condenses and condenses until "pushing it" at the target.

 

Slightly speeding up Stun would also be good but I don't feel it needs to be AoE.  Make it a faster recharging (cheaper) 100% stun that makes the set much easier to stack stuns.  

[BrandX]

Yes!  Those who are saying make it better at AOE are generally saying, I want the pom poms, but give me more AOE.

 

I want the pom poms, but I also want the set to be the ST monster it should be.  I'm willing to live with Whirling Hands as is, for it.  🙂  Of course, I LOVE WH animation!

[aethereal]

I made a little spreadsheet comparing (Brute) Energy Melee to War Mace and Martial arts.  I transcribed the info from the JSON power files that someone created in the tools section, hopefully I avoided any transcription errors.

 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Wzj1VBlH9NGqAO01Y8QSz4DBBVLzqkQ6aENtaF9bYnI/edit?usp=sharing

 

You can play around with stuff yourself to get a comparison, but here are some highlights:

 

Energy Melee's best DPA attack is Energy Transfer, at 71.23, its second best is Energy Punch at 50.25, and its third is Bone Smasher at 45.60.  Total focus comes in fourth, and honestly it needs a lot more help than Energy Transfer does.

 

Clobber destroys the DPA of Energy Transfer (Clobber is 99.02!), though then War Mace has Jawbreaker and Pulverize both around 45.  Of course, War Mace has three AoEs, all of them better than Whirling Hands.

 

Martial Arts doesn't have any single attack that has the DPA of Energy Transfer, but it does have Storm Kick at 66.33, Crippling Axe Kick at 55.26, and both Cobra Strike and Crane Kick at 48.95.  Its single PBAoE attack has almost twice the DPA of Whirling Hands.

 

Nowadays, you have to look at the procability of attacks to get a real sense of things, but with Stun not having a damage proc, I don't think this really is a big advantage for Energy Melee.  It has several 20s recharge attacks, so they're reliably procable, but probably that's overkill -- other melee sets usually have 12-16s recharge times which are still pretty reliable for getting a proc off (if you don't slot for recharge) and mean you need fewer attacks in the attack chain to get them off.

 

If Energy Transfer were to get a 1s animation time, its DPA would be positively stupid -- 190!  It's hard for me to argue that a one attack should be that much of an outlier.  Total Focus is really disappointing and could in my opinion use a drop to a 2s animation time, which would give Energy Melee at least some claim to fame in having two different notably high-DPA attacks.  One ultra-high DPA attack on a 20s cooldown doesn't salvage the set, for me.

 

Giving stun the "cobra strike" treatment has always seemed nonsensical to me, and continues to.  Total Focus should be better than it is.  If we cut it to a 2s animation time, then we have Total Focus, Energy Transfer, and Energy Punch already better DPA than Cobra Strike is, and Bone Smasher just barely inferior to Cobra Strike.  At very reasonable recharge levels, we can have a seamless attack chain consisting of Energy Transfer, Total Focus, Bone Smasher, and Energy Punch.  If we replace Bone Smasher with a Cobra-Strike-like Stun, then we are, first of all, only microscopic amounts higher damage, and second, we've now obviated Bone Smasher.  Power players would probably just reach for higher levels of global recharge and drop Stun or Bone Smasher anyway.  Improving Stun makes some sense if we continue to have Total Focus be an arguably useless attack, but why would we do that?

 

Energy Melee's AoE is dismal.  It's not just that it has one AoE, it's that it has one bad AoE.  Making Stun do something to help out AoE makes a lot more sense than trying to crowd another single-target attack into a set with five other single-target attacks.  Stun should either be AoE or else it should up its mitigation game in some way (it doesn't really make sense for this set to have another single-target stun when it, again, already has a ton of other single-target stuns).  If Whirling Hands continues to be the only AoE in Energy Melee, it should probably get some mild help.  Improving its DPA to 20-ish would still make it way less than Dragon's Tail, Shatter, or Crowd Control, but would at least throw some kind of bone to this set.  It certainly would not change the set to be "a good AoE set."

[Solarverse]

I honestly don't want to see Energy Melee turn in to an AoE set. I feel like we have enough of those. The fact that Energy Melee is Single Target Hard hitting focused is one of the few reasons that attracts me to the set. We have plenty of AoE-centric sets, please, let's not turn Energy Melee into one of those. Pretty please?

[aethereal]

7 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

I honestly don't want to see Energy Melee turn in to an AoE set. I feel like we have enough of those. The fact that Energy Melee is Single Target Hard hitting focused is one of the few reasons that attracts me to the set. We have plenty of AoE-centric sets, please, let's not turn Energy Melee into one of those. Pretty please?

There's a vast gulf between EM-as-it-is-now and "an AoE set."  Its AoE could be improved significantly without making it into an AoE-centric set, and I think almost everyone on this thread who has suggested improved AoE for Energy Melee has not been trying to turn it into a competitor for Best AoE In Brute/Tanker/Stalker Melee, just "not the worst by such a wide margin."

 

Martial Arts has a PBAoE on the same cooldown as Whirling Hands that animates in 60% the time and does 18% higher damage.  Would you consider Martial Arts to be "an AoE-centric set"?

[Solarverse]

5 minutes ago, aethereal said:

There's a vast gulf between EM-as-it-is-now and "an AoE set."  Its AoE could be improved significantly without making it into an AoE-centric set, and I think almost everyone on this thread who has suggested improved AoE for Energy Melee has not been trying to turn it into a competitor for Best AoE In Brute/Tanker/Stalker Melee, just "not the worst by such a wide margin."

 

Martial Arts has a PBAoE on the same cooldown as Whirling Hands that animates in 60% the time and does 18% higher damage.  Would you consider Martial Arts to be "an AoE-centric set"?

If people want to give Whirling Hands more damage and more range, that's fine. I just don't want to see the other powers that are hard hitting single target damage, have their damage reduced in order to turn them into cones or the likes. With the exception of ET not having its original animation, I like the set as it stands, personally.

[killigraphy]

You can have single target dmg with an aoe splash attached.....this way both parties get what they want. This isn't a new concept, WoW and FFXIV have done this years ago. Initial dmg, followed by a trickle down of dps to enemies in a cone or circle.  Again however, two powers being AoE does not make it and aoe based set.

 

Also as has been stated....even on PI radio teams, aoe is king. So either they have to turn up the dmg of aoe's like Whirling Hands and or, make TF PBAOE with a single target being selectable, ala the Warshades Unchain Essence.

[siolfir]

1 hour ago, aethereal said:

If Energy Transfer were to get a 1s animation time, its DPA would be positively stupid -- 190!  It's hard for me to argue that a one attack should be that much of an outlier. 

Your numbers aren't accounting for server ticks which limit how frequently you can activate powers (aka Arcanatime) - which, if you're using the in-game numbers, makes sense since they don't use the right numbers either. And even if everything fell into place and Energy Transfer ended up with scale 4.56 (ie, 190) DPA, having one outlier power is what makes Stalkers competitive in single target damage to Scrappers - with three stacks of Assassin's Focus, any non-blade Assassin's Strike (the blade sets have longer animations) is higher DPA than even the old 1 second Energy Transfer. That was the damage fix for an underperforming AT.

 

Here's a comparison I did with War Mace, Stone Melee, and Energy Melee in a different thread:

It doesn't have strict damage numbers because I used damage scale, so to get damage you multiply by 55.61 for Stalkers, 52.8295 for Tankers, and 41.7075 for Brutes. If you want to throw in Scrappers then it's 62.56125; I didn't list it because they don't have access to two of the three sets.

 

As for having Energy Transfer be an outlier in terms of DPA, how many other attacks in the game directly damage the user? That seems like a reasonable justification, although in reality that's a tradeoff for the endurance discount and lower recharge than a scale 4.56 attack should be.

[Troo]

@killigraphy I hear what you are saying. Though referencing WoW and FFXIV provides me zero context.

 

If Energy Melee is to be a superior single target set. Is it worth chasing AoE at the expense of that single target focus?

 

If Energy Transfer was reverted first and completely, that may open up the opportunity for other discussion. BUT if the AoE discussion is going to be at the cost of the single target focus it is a non starter for a bunch of folks.

[Leogunner]

3 hours ago, siolfir said:

Your numbers aren't accounting for server ticks which limit how frequently you can activate powers (aka Arcanatime) - which, if you're using the in-game numbers, makes sense since they don't use the right numbers either. And even if everything fell into place and Energy Transfer ended up with scale 4.56 (ie, 190) DPA, having one outlier power is what makes Stalkers competitive in single target damage to Scrappers - with three stacks of Assassin's Focus, any non-blade Assassin's Strike (the blade sets have longer animations) is higher DPA than even the old 1 second Energy Transfer. That was the damage fix for an underperforming AT.

That's probably a good argument for NOT having old ET.  Such an attack is now the niche of Stalker and having that niche also contributes to why Stalkers have that comeback.  Putting that niche out to any melee via EM also really funks up ST focused Stalker sets.  What do we do about Stalker EM, MA, DM, etc?  Give them more AoE?  Uhg, we already have AoE-oriented Stalkers...

[aethereal]

4 hours ago, siolfir said:

Your numbers aren't accounting for server ticks which limit how frequently you can activate powers (aka Arcanatime) - which, if you're using the in-game numbers, makes sense since they don't use the right numbers either.

I know, but it feels like the details of Arcanatime are unlikely to make a big difference in how the powersets compare.

[BrandX]

5 hours ago, killigraphy said:

You can have single target dmg with an aoe splash attached.....this way both parties get what they want. This isn't a new concept, WoW and FFXIV have done this years ago. Initial dmg, followed by a trickle down of dps to enemies in a cone or circle.  Again however, two powers being AoE does not make it and aoe based set.

 

Also as has been stated....even on PI radio teams, aoe is king. So either they have to turn up the dmg of aoe's like Whirling Hands and or, make TF PBAOE with a single target being selectable, ala the Warshades Unchain Essence.

 

Just because AOE is king on PI radio teams, does not mean one has to up AOE on sets.

 

That said, I know I suggested keep Stun a ST Stun, one can keep it's damage low, but make it a targetted AOE for damage, and it can be made into a proc attack.

 

 

[BrandX]

7 hours ago, aethereal said:

I made a little spreadsheet comparing (Brute) Energy Melee to War Mace and Martial arts.  I transcribed the info from the JSON power files that someone created in the tools section, hopefully I avoided any transcription errors.

 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Wzj1VBlH9NGqAO01Y8QSz4DBBVLzqkQ6aENtaF9bYnI/edit?usp=sharing

 

You can play around with stuff yourself to get a comparison, but here are some highlights:

 

Energy Melee's best DPA attack is Energy Transfer, at 71.23, its second best is Energy Punch at 50.25, and its third is Bone Smasher at 45.60.  Total focus comes in fourth, and honestly it needs a lot more help than Energy Transfer does.

 

Clobber destroys the DPA of Energy Transfer (Clobber is 99.02!), though then War Mace has Jawbreaker and Pulverize both around 45.  Of course, War Mace has three AoEs, all of them better than Whirling Hands.

 

Martial Arts doesn't have any single attack that has the DPA of Energy Transfer, but it does have Storm Kick at 66.33, Crippling Axe Kick at 55.26, and both Cobra Strike and Crane Kick at 48.95.  Its single PBAoE attack has almost twice the DPA of Whirling Hands.

 

Nowadays, you have to look at the procability of attacks to get a real sense of things, but with Stun not having a damage proc, I don't think this really is a big advantage for Energy Melee.  It has several 20s recharge attacks, so they're reliably procable, but probably that's overkill -- other melee sets usually have 12-16s recharge times which are still pretty reliable for getting a proc off (if you don't slot for recharge) and mean you need fewer attacks in the attack chain to get them off.

 

If Energy Transfer were to get a 1s animation time, its DPA would be positively stupid -- 190!  It's hard for me to argue that a one attack should be that much of an outlier.  Total Focus is really disappointing and could in my opinion use a drop to a 2s animation time, which would give Energy Melee at least some claim to fame in having two different notably high-DPA attacks.  One ultra-high DPA attack on a 20s cooldown doesn't salvage the set, for me.

 

Giving stun the "cobra strike" treatment has always seemed nonsensical to me, and continues to.  Total Focus should be better than it is.  If we cut it to a 2s animation time, then we have Total Focus, Energy Transfer, and Energy Punch already better DPA than Cobra Strike is, and Bone Smasher just barely inferior to Cobra Strike.  At very reasonable recharge levels, we can have a seamless attack chain consisting of Energy Transfer, Total Focus, Bone Smasher, and Energy Punch.  If we replace Bone Smasher with a Cobra-Strike-like Stun, then we are, first of all, only microscopic amounts higher damage, and second, we've now obviated Bone Smasher.  Power players would probably just reach for higher levels of global recharge and drop Stun or Bone Smasher anyway.  Improving Stun makes some sense if we continue to have Total Focus be an arguably useless attack, but why would we do that?

 

Energy Melee's AoE is dismal.  It's not just that it has one AoE, it's that it has one bad AoE.  Making Stun do something to help out AoE makes a lot more sense than trying to crowd another single-target attack into a set with five other single-target attacks.  Stun should either be AoE or else it should up its mitigation game in some way (it doesn't really make sense for this set to have another single-target stun when it, again, already has a ton of other single-target stuns).  If Whirling Hands continues to be the only AoE in Energy Melee, it should probably get some mild help.  Improving its DPA to 20-ish would still make it way less than Dragon's Tail, Shatter, or Crowd Control, but would at least throw some kind of bone to this set.  It certainly would not change the set to be "a good AoE set."

 

I've suggested before, just take a second off ET and TF's animation times.  I did this through different animations that are already in game (Spinning Strike and Crushing Uppercut), but one could just speed up the animations.

 

I'd still like to see Barrage get improved so it's the equal choice to Energy Punch.  Which, Martial Arts has attacks with the same DPA, no reason Barrage and Energy Punch couldn't equal the same DPA.

 

[killigraphy]

37 minutes ago, BrandX said:

 

Just because AOE is king on PI radio teams, does not mean one has to up AOE on sets.

 

That said, I know I suggested keep Stun a ST Stun, one can keep it's damage low, but make it a targetted AOE for damage, and it can be made into a proc attack.

 

 

To be accurate, and fair; AoE is king in everything but AV/GM fights....so that's not even 5% of the game? Turning TF into a single target PBAOE would be nice for when you're literally doing everything else.

[BrandX]

2 hours ago, killigraphy said:

To be accurate, and fair; AoE is king in everything but AV/GM fights....so that's not even 5% of the game? Turning TF into a single target PBAOE would be nice for when you're literally doing everything else.

 

I get that for most of the game, AOE is king of basically any mission clearing.  That doesn't mean, every set has to be good at it.  Or even decent at it.

 

And for everyone claiming AOE is king, they have plenty of AOE options out there.

[killigraphy]

2 hours ago, BrandX said:

 

I get that for most of the game, AOE is king of basically any mission clearing.  That doesn't mean, every set has to be good at it.  Or even decent at it.

 

And for everyone claiming AOE is king, they have plenty of AOE options out there.

 

I feel you there, but all EM is Martial arts, with better aesthetics and pom poms. It needs to be more solid for end game runs (without io sets even). It just becomes relegated to AV's, which is always annoying. I suppose that'll always be the case though, I don't see any of the fixes we've mentioned, actually changing the life of the AT.

[Zeraphia]

On 6/19/2020 at 1:26 AM, Troo said:

 Someone said there are plenty of players out there who are happy with and want to play sets that are single target focused. To which you replied:

Then you doubled down with opinions stated as facts:

Now, a month later, tripling down with the same premise while also weirdly hedging:

Maybe next month AoE will be king in 80% of the game.. and then 70%..

 

"Misconception" = Having read the same opinion a third time, it is clear your opinions on the subject are simply poppycock. (that means: nonsense)

I don't think their statements hold as much Trooth as they think they do.

[BrandX]

7 hours ago, killigraphy said:

 

I feel you there, but all EM is Martial arts, with better aesthetics and pom poms. It needs to be more solid for end game runs (without io sets even). It just becomes relegated to AV's, which is always annoying. I suppose that'll always be the case though, I don't see any of the fixes we've mentioned, actually changing the life of the AT.

 

Martial Arts is a pretty popular set on Scrappers, so I'd say there are plenty of Scrappers who'd be happy with EM's single target focus.

I'd put it pretty even tier on Stalkers with EM winning, but EM is a bit more common on Brutes than MA.  May have a bit to do with concepts though.  

[marcussmythe]

After leveling, labouring, proccing, calculating, sacrificing in other areas to focus on making a silk purse from a sows ear...

 

My EM is shelved again.  I dont see them fixing it enough to make it competitive in the modern era.  Its lack of -RES and -RCHG proc opportunities are simply the insult to the injury of a bad secondary effect, worlds worst AOE, execrable single target, suicide attacks, and make a sandwich animation times.

 

What comes out the back of any review would have to change so many things about this set to make it better than ‘mediocre’, that I dont see it happening.  
 

Recommend TW, Mace, Rad Melee, StJ.  Hope Im wrong.

[Leogunner]

55 minutes ago, marcussmythe said:

After leveling, labouring, proccing, calculating, sacrificing in other areas to focus on making a silk purse from a sows ear...

 

My EM is shelved again.  I dont see them fixing it enough to make it competitive in the modern era.  Its lack of -RES and -RCHG proc opportunities are simply the insult to the injury of a bad secondary effect, worlds worst AOE, execrable single target, suicide attacks, and make a sandwich animation times.

 

What comes out the back of any review would have to change so many things about this set to make it better than ‘mediocre’, that I dont see it happening.  
 

Recommend TW, Mace, Rad Melee, StJ.  Hope Im wrong.

Much of your complaints amount to meta-game complaints which are, IMO, the least relevant of complaints.

 

Procs and uniques are meant to be bonuses and utility and you should probably keep much of that slotting in that context: bonus and utility.  But because you guys shill them so hard is probably why procs are in the crosshairs to be readjusted so keep on the lookout for that at some point as well.

[marcussmythe]

 

1 hour ago, Leogunner said:

Much of your complaints amount to meta-game complaints which are, IMO, the least relevant of complaints.

 

Procs and uniques are meant to be bonuses and utility and you should probably keep much of that slotting in that context: bonus and utility.  But because you guys shill them so hard is probably why procs are in the crosshairs to be readjusted so keep on the lookout for that at some point as well.

"Meta-Game Complaints"?  Performance is performance.  I mean, if we want to balance on SOs, without sets, procs, and incarnates, we can.. but thats not the game most people are playing (though such servers exist, I am told)

 

As for taking procs out behind the woodshed - that would make me sad.  The IO system is excellent for buffing the survival of low-toughness characters, and very poor at buffing the damage of low-damage characters.  Leveraging procs redresses some of that.

 

 

[Leogunner]

2 minutes ago, marcussmythe said:

 

"Meta-Game Complaints"?  Performance is performance.  I mean, if we want to balance on SOs, without sets, procs, and incarnates, we can.. but thats not the game most people are playing (though such servers exist, I am told)

 

As for taking procs out behind the woodshed - that would make me sad.  The IO system is excellent for buffing the survival of low-toughness characters, and very poor at buffing the damage of low-damage characters.  Leveraging procs redresses some of that.

 

 

There's performance and then there's preference.  If your preference is more angled toward meta-game measures, it's probably best to understand that circumstance moreso than performance overall.  Personally, I don't see EM as that bad, especially if you like mezzing things as a melee.  If that isn't your cup of tea, making it into something else entirely is a measure different than making it more palpable for more varied styles.

 

I can understand the desire to push a build into meta territory but that isn't and shouldn't be the goal of changes.

[marcussmythe]

Just now, Leogunner said:

Personally, I don't see EM as that bad, especially if you like mezzing things as a melee.

Then this is probably not the thread for you.

[Leogunner]

12 minutes ago, marcussmythe said:

Then this is probably not the thread for you.

And why would you assume that?