Discord Weekly Discussion - Week 36: Arachnos Widow

[GM Miss]

Weekly discussion 36 Week 2/02/20-2/08/20:

⚔️ YOU VOTED: It's time for Veats: Arachnos Widow! ⚔️

 

❓ Things to think about:

>How do they compare with other damaging ATs? With Dmg / with survivability?

>What is your favorite build for them - Night vs Fortunata

>Are they underpowered/overpowered/okay at the moment?

>What would you like to see changed?

>What do you love about them?

*Don't just use these questions, comment with more! 😄

Let's get talking! 

[GM Miss]

Feel free to post some screens of your widow! 😄

[VileTerror]

Favourite build?  Blood Widow, of course.  Why bother going in to Night or Fortunata?

[DR_Mechano]

Personal experience I actually think VEATs as a whole are in a rather good place.

 

Widows as Blood, Night or Fortunata all seem perfectly fun and viable as well.

 

Blood allows for the Huntsman widow variant of stacking the 2 leadership pools but for melee, Night is a fun little mix of CC and melee done right and Fortunata is a great CCer and damage dealer.

 

[Wild Claw]

I quite like my Widow and I don't see much needing to be done to it. Except... the power and costume customization is a bit lacking.

 

I can see several of the Widow pieces being locked to Widows, but not being able to do variations of the main costume in the other slots, not having at least a couple of weapon options, and their powers not having much in the way of color customization is a bit of a bummer. I understand the VEATS in general have some... weirdness in attachment points for their costumes, and cleaning that up can lead to a rat hole of general costume creator problems, but it's still something I would like to see looked at again. 🙂

[VileTerror]

Excellent point, Wild Claw.  It would be wonderful if the costume situation could be addressed.  As ever, more variety and options lead to more opportunities to express a deeper and more meaningful level of creativity.

 

There's also the Inherent for both Widows and Soldiers; Conditioning.  It does feel a bit . . . unshiny.  More Regen and Recovery is definitely welcome, and I don't think either of the Arachnos Archetypes are hurting in terms of performance.  It's just that, on the face of it, Conditioning doesn't feel quite thematic enough.  Like it's just one small tweak or addition away from being truly fulfilling.

[Arcanum]

I personally would like to see the Male version of Widows to have access to the 'butt cape'!

Otherwise, I agree with Wild Claw. Some customization options for the power-set would be nice!

[siolfir]

First off, I love my Fortunatas - the melee-focused one I have on Homecoming and the ranged-only one that I had on Infinity.

 

They're in a great spot, and I don't think they need anything, but if I were told that there's time to change things, here's my "wish list":

• Change the Night Widow path so that Build Up does not lock out Follow Up; it's inconsistent since Fortunatas can take Aim and Follow Up
• Set the damage cap to 500% to match the "damage ATs"
• Have a no-redraw option for the claw attacks (both paths swap between Claws and Psi attacks)
• Some customization of the claws, even if it's only in the extra costume slots
• Ditch the "no recharge enhancement" restriction in Mind Link: it's not present in Farsight, which is nearly the same power without psi resistance (on ATs that get Power Boost/Power Build Up)

Sure, the inherent is... meh, at best. But if you're going to count Assassination as the inherent for Stalkers, Widows also get critical damage from hidden status, they just don't get criticals otherwise. I wouldn't mind tweaking the base recovery portion, but as I mentioned in the first Tanker feedback thread in the beta section pretty much all of the ATs could use more endurance.

 

Edit to add: Why doesn't Tactical Training: Vengeance have at least one attribute "better" than the power pool version that can be picked up 21 levels earlier? You don't need it for the set mule, so it's just a "here, skip this" power, but primary and secondary powers are supposed to be better than the generic pool versions, so it's an exception to that.

Edited February 3, 2020 by siolfir

[Carnifax]

Remove the animation penalty of popping claws. All other sets removed it but Veats still have it.

 

Give them proper cossie choices for weapons. I want purply-pink "Psi blades" for my fort, not the knuckle dusters im limited to now. 

[VileTerror]

Actually . . . I did think of something pretty big that I want related to the Epic Villain Archetypes.

 

Full gender representation for enemy NPCs!

 

The models exist now, after all.  The original lore clearly stated that the Soldier corps were equal opportunity, and the Widow corps officially became equal with the launch of VEATs.  Why -don't- we see male Widows and female Soldiers running around?  That seems like an incredibly low bar to clear now that all the assets are complete and just sitting there.  Hell!  Someone point me in the right direction, and I'll do the work to make it a reality myself!

 

And very, very, VERY, -VERY- "yes" to butt-capes-for-all.

[Gulbasaur]

>How do they compare with other damaging ATs? With Dmg / with survivability?

I have zero problems with survivability of my fortunata - the mix of melee, range, control and high defence makes it a very capable tank, I actually prefer tanking on my fortunata than on my brute or my tanker because of the level of energy you have to maintain and the pretty spectacular burst damage they can put out.

 

The night widow on the other hand... the lack of control makes it play like a scrapper without the critical hits, or a pre-buff stalker.

 

I wouldn't call them primarily a DPS archetype - they're very much a hybrid archetype which works well for fortunatas with their wide toolkit but doesn't really benefit night widows, who are basically pre-buff stalkers with leadership, only they don't crit as hard and all of their attacks are weaker. Without procs, they can feel anaemic and pre-24 they are a struggle, but one of the ATOs gives a global damage proc which really helps get the ball rolling. 

 

>What is your favorite build for them - Night vs Fortunata

Fortunata with melee attacks - it's a hybrid archetype so that plays to its strengths.

 

>Are they underpowered/overpowered/okay at the moment?

Fortunata - powerful but not overpowered. I'd say it has a good effort:reward ratio. The mixture of range (with control) and decent melee makes for a fun and engaging playstyle.

 

Night Widow - pre-buff stalker underpowered. I really wanted to like the night widow, but it has middling damage and middling damage mitigation with no extra features other than one or two ranged attacks, leaving it a little underwhelming.

 

>What would you like to see changed?

Night Widows need a bit of a revamp in some way to bring them up to the same level of power as the other VEAT builds. The early levelling experience (1-24) is rough as they play like scrappers with a lower damage multiplier and no criticals. They were clearly somewhat based on stalkers, only stalkers got a substantial rework... I think they need something to make them more competitive. Night Widows are very much "more of the same", which isn't that great to begin with, which Fortunatas get a much broader toolkit.

 

Edit: The main problems I have are keeping aggro (I have all these defences, but what are they for if I struggle to hold aggro?) and the complete uselessness of the stealth crit mechanic. 

 

I think the inherent power, while useful, is pretty low-tier. Widows have a similar crit mechanic to stalkers except it does not trigger on ranged attacks. At present, they get one crit at the start of combat, at a lower strength than scrappers, stalkers and controllers if they open in melee and then can ignore the mechanic entirely as Placate has a long animation giving it low return on investment as a power and a liability in combat.

 

I really like the "stance" mechanic that Bio, Staff and Pistols have and would be delighted if that was used as a model for widows- add a low chance-to-hide proc stance, a change-for-control+mag and a chance-to-taunt proc stance? That would accommodative different playstyles and lean into the hybrid theme. I'd be against adding more damage, as I don't think that's a problem with widows, but an ability to capitalise on their flexible nature would be great.

 

>What do you love about them?

I love hybrid playstyles, and my "blood fortunata" can literally do anything as long as I play well. It is a very rewarding build to play as I can take down AVs in melee, act as team support with buffs and control and also blast my way through mobs, without ever feeling like it's too easy. It is a flexible playstyle that has effort and reward in very good balance.

 

ALSO

Buttcapes for all.

 

FURTHERMORE

My fortunata is the only character where I've had task force teammates send me tells asking for my build or telling me they're thinking about rolling a widow after seeing Doctor Fortune in action. They really are the most fun I've had - as long as I never take my foot off the accelerator, I feel like I can do anything. 

Edited February 6, 2020 by Gulbasaur

[GM Miss]

Great responses so far everyone 😄

[Harakh]

What is your favorite build for them - Night vs Fortunata

Fortunata has become my favorite spec.

 

How do they compare with other damaging ATs? With Dmg / with survivability?

Compared to none my widows feels great.  Is widow considered an actual damage AT? Until I spent 1%er kinda influence on a fort build I would have never said its a damage class (night widow being the actual damage class but lacking true aoe where psychic wail fills that gap in fort so it was a toss up). At 50+ damage improved. Largely AoE spam waiting for psychic wail and ion to recharge. I've never played any other kind of psionic dmg toon so I really don't know how it plays comparably. Survivability, as another poster stated, its a good effort vs reward class. Not soo easy that you can blankly watch a show on the other monitor. ...I really don't know how sentinels and SoA should compare, but SR sentinel makes my widow feel like paper. And sentinel is a damage class too? I currently accept this through reasoning of more team buffs.

 

Are they underpowered/overpowered/okay at the moment?

Feels underpowered when teamed with IO'd toons. The fun factor delivers much of what I perceive as its power. But in team I feel like I could be just as useful with auto follow and team buffs - checking back in to cast PW. But I did consider the class a "Leadership Defender" so wasn't expecting to be any sort of glass cannon.

 

What would you like to see changed?

The inherent power. I consider the +regen as an important aspect of my build currently but considering my widow has just over ~3hp more per second regen vs my sentinel - what's it really doing? And again, made me believe its not a damage class.  Also, I liked the above idea to allow crits for the first hit from ranged attacks.  

 

Claw redraw removed.

 

Patron pools? I can stand shoulder to shoulder with Ghost Widow, but I've now abandoned my teacher and have found no home with the heroes. They won't teach me new tricks.

*I'll always be a curb licker*

 

What do you love about them?

The mix of psi attacks (and potentially melee for hybrid play), controls, and shields. Allowed me to play a toon the way I wished from my dominator and blaster (before the now found sentinel :P) would.

 

Off-Road

I keep referring back to my newly found sentinel, he's making my widow feel obsolete in some ways. They play soo similarly I'm now wondering if sentinels are the new Epic/Veat-Non-epic/Veat class.  In practice, between my Fort and my Fire/SR/Ice sent. If the widow had a tiny bit more res, or hp, or some sort of shield-mitigation tool (over a trol power or an elude which is useless against high stake single targets (elude useless for everything except an SO character)) my fort would feel better rounded and more available to expand to other build types while maintaining my effectiveness solo. 

 

 

Addition

Back when Epic AT's were released, PB and WS, the inherent travel powers were what made them feel special to me as a young teen (since travel powers were available at a much slower level 14). With that in mind and coupled with the lacking of a real inherent power - maybe add movement speed etc. could be with the regen and recov buff; if SoA's are designed to not need the inherent (as I've read in other forum posts) it seems a base boosts to non-damaging stats wouldn't break anything.  Or double my regen, yep, I'll take that 😉

 

Anyway, I shall continue to ponder this forum. Widow has been my badge toon at just over 600 badges now. I feel even more drawn to it having the chance to give my input.

 

Edited February 5, 2020 by Harakh
addition

[Bossk_Hogg]

On 2/3/2020 at 12:58 AM, Wild Claw said:

I quite like my Widow and I don't see much needing to be done to it. Except... the power and costume customization is a bit lacking.

 

I can see several of the Widow pieces being locked to Widows, but not being able to do variations of the main costume in the other slots, not having at least a couple of weapon options, and their powers not having much in the way of color customization is a bit of a bummer. I understand the VEATS in general have some... weirdness in attachment points for their costumes, and cleaning that up can lead to a rat hole of general costume creator problems, but it's still something I would like to see looked at again. 🙂

All of the pieces seem to be in ICON with the "n" suffix, so they could be unlocked. There are a few incorrectly tagged under the wrong detail, but that seems fixable. There doesn't seem to be much of a QC issue either with most pieces, just that the devs havent unlocked it yet. 

 

Also, claw customization would be nice. Same with the dart projectile color (spines would also benefit).

[Harakh]

Just finished a session playing both the widow and sentinel(SR) focusing on same mob types and difficulty for comparison. Paying closer attention to each skill used and my general speed. Truthfully, my fort handled very well, incarnate missions +4/x8. If played well (<-as stated above by another), he was tough to beat down. Well placed holds go a long way for mitigation, and aura of confusion when actually utilized often helps fill in the hole were no mitigation shield is offered.

 

On the wish list, a more intriguing inherent power or a buff to the current Conditioning, critical hits from hidden @ range, and patron pool powers.

 

I stand by the claws redraw to be removed. I originally dreamed of psi/claws build but have come to a complete ranged build in preference of the flow. 

 

The fact had eluded me, until another poster mentioned, the damage cap of 400%. If considered a damage class 500% seems to be an ideal request, as well.

[Kageru]

My Night Widow was my first character to 50, through soloing story missions (it's red side in Australian times so I didn't even see any groups) making cross-comparisons difficult. On teams I find it difficult to estimate whether the buffs I bring balance out my DPS. I assume it is lower than a dedicated DPS character (scrapper or stalker) but I hope it is not too much lower and the buffs I bring are not just being wasted on characters already at cap, as a lot of the players are pretty well IO'd out.

The AoE options seem fairly fiddly and not that impressive. In teams things die really fast and I'm pretty sure it's not me. Spin has a long animation and seems to miss everything a surprising amount. Eviscerate needs a close target to fire and then has an extremely small range and long animation both of which make it more difficult to use well in a grouped environment. Dart burst has a better range but a long animation. I only got it fairly late too (there's a lot of useful buffs to get) so I often lose it when playing at a reduced level. I can see why the access to larger AoE's with very useful side-effects, plus better range, encourage the dominance of fortunata's. Seeing a forum post say they feel sad seeing a night widow because it's wasted potential was a bit discouraging ... but melee is fun. And I think buffs plus being able to apply high single target data to a high value opponent is useful enough.

The soldier inherent certainly isn't very interesting and I can't tell how useful it is because it is extremely passive. I do have a lot of toggles to run though.

I think most widow builds, where slots are tight anyway, have little reason to draw from the very limited pool of patron powers available to them. Certainly I have never seen a widow build with any of them.

I don't mind the combat pajama's outfit and it being unique, more claw options might be nice though. One thing I noticed is that if you save your costume and then try to "fix" it so you can load your body type into another slot it loses those settings. So my widow has glam hair and face 14 but all my slots have default face and medium hair that remains when I try to load the costume from slot 1 into it.

Edited February 8, 2020 by Kageru
minor correction.

[The_Warpact]

I think the Widows are in a great spot, maybe some minor animation tweaks, claws popping, etc. More costume features would be great.

Overall though they are pretty solid whether it be fort, NW, etc.

[GM Miss]

The topic is now locked, look for the update in the suggestions and feedback thread! 

 

Come see me in just a few for the new weekly discussion!