Kheldians

[Snarky]

Okay. This is going to take a hard left into tentacle talk at some point but i am trying for  a serious discussion. Looks at sentence considers erasing. No.  Just going to roll on

 

so. For me anything that is alien and is put inside a human body thag tirns you into a floating squid or a giant space crab goes right to the Master’s work. And by that i mean H.P. Lovecraft.  Beloved researcher lost to us in an untimely demise when sucked through an interdimensional space vortex 

 

Does anyone know what the inspiration was for the original concept and art on these critters?  Because i am thinking Lovecraft and Villain and they are slapped i to Hero epic archetypes and misunderstood saviors of mankind. I never understood any of it. I ran one up to all of tenth level about ten years ago. 
 

 

 

 

Edited February 3, 2020 by Snarky

[Gulbasaur]

I love me some Kheldian lore. 

 

From the Lore AMA: 

Quote

Q) What was the Kheldian “homeworld” like, their government, native culture, etc, prior to their being a big space war? Did they evolve their symbiosis with the Dwarf/Nova races peacefully, or was that a necessity of the war with the nictus? (Spectralent)

Q: And would we ever have gotten to visit? (Memphis Bill)

A) Matt (Positron) It was never fleshed out, afaik.

 

Quote

MattBold: I NEED more information and Lore about the Kheldians. Please tell me everything.

Positron: 

So nothing remotely helpful. 

 

As someone who has read a medium amount of Lovecraft (who I consider to have been a terrible writer but did push forward a genre that was both in its infancy and a clear continuation of other genres as they developed), I never considered Kheldians remotely Lovecraftian. Wrong squid, I guess. 

 

Alien symbiotes were, like, a thing in the 90s, appearing in the X Files and Venom/Carnage being more present in Spiderman, Dax in Deep Space 9... so it isn't really surprising that we see them in City of Heroes in terms of development timelines. I think what's unique is how they're done - energy beings that change the shape of their host to take on forms of previous species... which kind of reminds me of Animorphs a bit.  

 

In terms of how they fit in the story, to me they've always felt a bit like the Lantern Corps - thematically similar, but more like a space force than a load of generic samey heroes. 

 

Honestly, Kheldian lore (what little of it there is) is some of my favourite in the game, partly because of how distinct it is. Some of it's a bit clumsy and self-contradictory, in my opinion, but I really enjoy the themes there (and I love playing peacebringers, even if they do plateau a bit in terms of gameplay). 

[SwitchFade]

We never quite got clarity on the inspirations for the Kheldian form artwork. I can tell you positively that Vahzolok Eidolon was based on Scorpius from Farscape. Perhaps there's a correlative timeframe for the inspiration of the epic AT? Perhaps it was just one of the many submissions from the art department that got upvoted though.

Edited February 3, 2020 by SwitchFade

[Richard Nelson]

In the alpha stages of the game there was a shapeshifting set. The forms are leftovers from that. the shapes are based on a book that showed what lifeforms on low and high gravity planets could look like. I still have the book in storage somewhere, I laughed at how little they changed  from the original material and wondered if it was legal.

[Snarky]

I had a coffee table book once “the alien life if wayne barlowe”. Pretty amazing stuff.  It wouldnt be the same author by chance???

[MrSnottyPants]

Back on live I had a Warshade named The Antiquarian with a Lovecraft feel.  Lovecraft has plenty of involuntary changing into alien form stuff.

[Gulbasaur]

1 hour ago, SwitchFade said:

Vahzolok Eidolon was based on Scorpius from Farscape.

I knew it rang a bell - a couple of the more bondage-y looking enemies gave off that vibe. The 5th Column and the Void Hunters all sort of lurk in that art style (also, Farscape <3). 

33 minutes ago, Richard Nelson said:

In the alpha stages of the game there was a shapeshifting set. The forms are leftovers from that. the shapes are based on a book that showed what lifeforms on low and high gravity planets could look like. I still have the book in storage somewhere, I laughed at how little they changed  from the original material and wondered if it was legal.

Oh? That's super cool and completely makes sense. I know that they briefly tried archetype-free power choices in alpha, but everyone made ranged tank-mages so they decided to make the distinct archetypes (which also explains why inherent powers for heroes were introduced way after the game's launch).

 

Here's an interesting article about early game and archetype development but sadly nothing about Kheldians.

 

Some creative googling found this artist who has a couple of things that sort of look like Nova form kheldians, as does this. 

[SeraphimKensai]

Kheldians were and still are my favorite lore aspect of the game. When the game was gone, I found myself missing Kheldians because of how interesting they were. That said they might not be the easiest AT to use or the FOTM that is solo clearing iTrials but they've always had a certain je ne sais pas to them. Perhaps the whole idea of specialized NPCs hunting us down, infecting our teammates so mobs would show up in their missions until they logged and my personal favorite Shadow Cysts of death, it was like playing the game on Hard Mode, as you had access to a jack of all trades character that you felt really could use more more slots a lot of the time, but had to endure.

[SwitchFade]

I'd love to see cysts back as random spawn in regular missions again as an option.

 

Unpopular, I know

[Gulbasaur]

14 minutes ago, SwitchFade said:

I'd love to see cysts back as random spawn in regular missions again as an option.

 

Honestly, I'd love that - and the unresistable damage from quantums. It made them feel very distinct to play and to play with.

 

In a world of facerolls where everyone's a tankmage and light form is up permanently, the challenge is sorely needed.

 

[_NOPE_]

Oh god I had a love/hate relationship with Cysts. I haven't played a Kheld in a while, are you saying that Cysts no longer randomly spawn like Void Hunters do? Since when? Just wondering in which Issue they took that spawning out.

[SeraphimKensai]

Neither Cysts or Void Hunters spawn anymore, just quantum Gunner mobs inside the factions.

[SwitchFade]

3 hours ago, The Philotic Knight said:

Oh god I had a love/hate relationship with Cysts. I haven't played a Kheld in a while, are you saying that Cysts no longer randomly spawn like Void Hunters do? Since when? Just wondering in which Issue they took that spawning out.

They turned off cysts and void Hunter when people whimpered en masse 🙂 Honestly, I get it, but I still miss them. Maybe circa 2009 or 10?

[Gulbasaur]

8 hours ago, SwitchFade said:

They turned off cysts and void Hunter when people whimpered en masse 🙂 Honestly, I get it, but I still miss them. Maybe circa 2009 or 10?

Cysts could certainly have been a bit less tanky, but I loved them as a mechanic.

[nihilii]

12 hours ago, Gulbasaur said:

Honestly, I'd love that - and the unresistable damage from quantums. It made them feel very distinct to play and to play with.

 

In a world of facerolls where everyone's a tankmage and light form is up permanently, the challenge is sorely needed.

 

Hear, hear.

If anything, it'd be great to see the mechanic expanded. Think "incarnate hunters" with autohit, unresistable damage against incarnates.

[DR_Mechano]

Yeah basically Kheldian/Nictus lore (and the AT itself it would seem) was someones pet project IIRC and when they left the dev team they sort of didn't bother pushing it any further so we basically know next to nothing about them because the rest of the dev team/writers didn't seem to be interested, we got nods here and there but nothing major. Though I suspect we might have seen more on the Nictus side of things with Provost Marchand's arc very clearly setting up a Council/5th Column all out war with the Council taking the Praetorian stuff along with the Nictus allies whilst the 5th Column takes on your traditional wacky Nazis kind of stuff.

 

I suspect that was going to be the intention to make the two sides more distinct from each other. Things like the Vampyri and Warwolves going to the 5th Column (since IIRC Nosferatu and Vandal are back to being members of the 5th Column along with Requiem and Reichsman) with Nictus Dwarf and Nova replacing them on the Council side with the basic Council troopers enchanced with Praetorian tech but the 5th Column being further advanced by other Incarnate stuff thanks to Reichsman and Vandal. 

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

Khelds, especially Nictus def had a touch of the lovecraftian to them. Shouldnt be a surprise, Jack was big on D&D, and D&D has Lovecraft as one of its unsung god fathers. We see a number of those themes, The elder gods like Tilekku and Mot. The ancient lost and now unknown civilizations like Mu and Atlantis, and the creatures from the Deep like the coralax and their alien goddess. Ruluruu, the dream doctor, and the midnight club all have aspects that can certainly be in step with a lovecraftian. Likely why a few characters Ive recruited to the midnight club are homages to lovecraft.

 

FYI though Lovecraft was a terrible racist. I mean yes that was partly a product of his time, but some of his stories like the one about Arthur German shows he had a deep issue with the idea of the Other.

 

He was a brilliant writer though imo, not everything he wrote was tops but some of his best stuff is just above the cut. Personal fave is The Case of Charles Dexter Ward along with The Shadow over Innsmouth.

 

[Snarky]

He was definitely a product of his time. I am not a person who can afford to huck this rock too far but i will venture he was probably a little unbalanced as well

 

people make judgement calls about his writing chops. Definitely their right. I have tried to read a few of his short stories. I swear i set them down to take a nap on a sunny afternoon and have a NIGHTMARE. I never get nightmares and i am a lucid dreamer most nights

 

when i encounter Lovecraftian tropes in movies games or books it definitely has an impact on me. This says a ton about me and maybe not so much about HPs writing skills

 

i will say that when an author has this great an impact he can not be discounted a s “poor” or a “hack” without at least a tacit acknowledging of the inpact the work has had

 

i might consider running a kheld. Problem is i am a min/maxer. (See current thread lol) and khelds sort of are horrid for that from what i understand. Anyways i have my zombie tank project on front burner. (Who is exploring all lore. Sort of how this started)

[Redlynne]

12 hours ago, SwitchFade said:

They turned off cysts and void Hunter when people whimpered en masse 🙂 Honestly, I get it, but I still miss them. Maybe circa 2009 or 10?

Best compromise I can think of would be that Void Hunters and Cysts are enabled when a Level 50 Kheldian is on the team and NOT Exemplared below Level 50.  That way the Void Hunters and Cysts are essentially "endgame content" for Kheldians (and teams with Kheldians in them) at Level 50, when you've got no more excuses for not being able to handle them (since you've got all your powers and all your slots).

[Snarky]

Honestly i see no reason to add difficulty ti a TF or content because a kheld is there. 1) it is prejudice 😆 2 kheld is just not “all that” to the point where something needs ti be added.  Seriously who thought these things were monster tough?  You see any teams of these things running around (except mebbe some RP teams?)

[MrSnottyPants]

I'd think a Null the Gull option would be best/easiest.  Personally, I'd rather just not see quantums or the rest - I'm over the special and dislike the extra swingy they add to RNG.  Missing several times in a row can be a frustrating disaster at low/mid levels. 

[SeraphimKensai]

As a min maxer to an extreme degree, you can build some fairly beastly Kheldians. Yes there's a few changes that I would make to them if I was in charge of powers.

 

That said I was always looking forward to a Kheldian end game where Twilight's Son is enslaving us to turn us into interstellar fuel for Battalion's ships. It would of been bleak, dreary, apocalyptic, and perfect (to plant your feet in the ground and fight back).

[MyriVerse]

In D&D, there were the Xag-ya/Xeg-yi tentacled postive/negative dimensional creatures.

[Snarky]

10 minutes ago, SeraphimKensai said:

As a min maxer to an extreme degree, you can build some fairly beastly Kheldians. Yes there's a few changes that I would make to them if I was in charge of powers.

 

That said I was always looking forward to a Kheldian end game where Twilight's Son is enslaving us to turn us into interstellar fuel for Battalion's ships. It would of been bleak, dreary, apocalyptic, and perfect (to plant your feet in the ground and fight back).

Wait... i thought Twilights Son was a refugee from that apocalyptic future?  He caused it?

 

and....so min/max on a kheld. Would that look something like just slot squid form and do not slot human or turtle?  I would be down with that

 

i make bettrr tanks, do t need a turtle. I could prob roll a better straight up blaster but i like the look of the squid. Again ... Lovecraft lol

[SeraphimKensai]

22 minutes ago, Snarky said:

Wait... i thought Twilights Son was a refugee from that apocalyptic future?  He caused it?

 

and....so min/max on a kheld. Would that look something like just slot squid form and do not slot human or turtle?  I would be down with that

 

i make bettrr tanks, do t need a turtle. I could prob roll a better straight up blaster but i like the look of the squid. Again ... Lovecraft lol

Yes Twilight's Son says he was a refugee, but if you play through that content you'll discover notes left behind that show you the truth about Ourosboros, the Menders, and Twilight's Son.

 

As for min maxing on a PB, I go with a primarily human perma lightform build, but I have dwarf to serve as a breakfree if needed. It could benefit from more damage but it is very survivable.

 

On my Warshade, I play triform utilizing perma eclipse and form swapping on the fly to double mire nuke and Nova down mobs. It's very active.

 

Both typically have capped resistances aside of toxic/psi, and I throw in some defense. They aren't perfect by any means but I build all my toons and typically end up on the higher end of efficacy for any team I find myself on.