Pets and Procs: What Works, What Doesn't?

[r0y]

I am not new to the game at all.  I am, however, new to Masterminds (I have ONE on my account, Bots/Time).  I've been looking to make another (thinking Demons/Dark or Demons/Thermal).  Looking around this forum at the various builds, I saw a couple of things with procs that I didn't know if it worked, if it helped, etc.

 

First Issue:   [Hell on Earth]  (from Demon Summoning).  It is a way-too-long recharge (600s) buff power that I've seen one build throw ALL of the pet procs into it.  Just procs (e.g. +Def, +Res for pets).  Will this only fire off the buff procs when cast?  Or will all the pets have the proc as if it was in another pet.  Now, Hell on Earth has a chance to summon something (again, I have not made the character, so I haven't used the power).  Maybe I am confused as to whether this is a buff or a rarely-summoned additional pet.

 

Next Issue:  Chance for Damage procs in Pet slots.   I usually use recharge-intensive pet IO's, but I saw builds where a chance for smashing (slow set), or the chance for negative (-def set) were slotted.  How do chance for damage procs work in pet slots?

 

Final Issue:  Similar to the above damage proc, what about the health procs?   I was specifically thinking about Dark Servant with the absorb proc, or the +heal/end proc (pvp IO).  How do those work in pet slots?

 

Any help is greatly appreciated!

-r0y

[tremor3258]

Take a look at the specific description on those items, the 'for pets' resist and defense boosts count as global powers., they aren't procs.  The power works by  effectively give the mastermind a PBAOE always-on aura that gives pets extra defense, resistance, etc when they are within it. 

 

Hell on Earth specifically gives a henchmen a damage/to hit buff and summons little extra hellfires which act sort of like mini fire imps.  The facts it can take pet-set IOs means it's a great power to load up on those global resist bonuses for pets and give more room in the active pets for items that buff them individually.

 

Chance for damage procs work on henchmen abilities that match how those powers work normally; Lich, on necromancy has a bunch of  powers with -tohit (as it's a tiny dark defender), so the cloud sense proc can fire off all of them.  There's some good discussions on the forums for what each pet can take and which powers are affected. 

 

Other example, the Oni has Char, a copy of the ST hold power from fire control, but just one, so probably isn't the best use of a ghost widow's embrace since it boosts such a small ability subset.

 

For other procs (like build up) - I haven't seen to many people try +absorb so this is more theoretical - given how build up affects an individual henchmen (as they're firing the power) assume +absorb would give a damage barrier to the henchmen, not the mastermind.

 

 

 

 

[TheSpiritFox]

2 hours ago, r0y said:

I am not new to the game at all.  I am, however, new to Masterminds (I have ONE on my account, Bots/Time).  I've been looking to make another (thinking Demons/Dark or Demons/Thermal).  Looking around this forum at the various builds, I saw a couple of things with procs that I didn't know if it worked, if it helped, etc.

 

First Issue:   [Hell on Earth]  (from Demon Summoning).  It is a way-too-long recharge (600s) buff power that I've seen one build throw ALL of the pet procs into it.  Just procs (e.g. +Def, +Res for pets).  Will this only fire off the buff procs when cast?  Or will all the pets have the proc as if it was in another pet.  Now, Hell on Earth has a chance to summon something (again, I have not made the character, so I haven't used the power).  Maybe I am confused as to whether this is a buff or a rarely-summoned additional pet.

 

Next Issue:  Chance for Damage procs in Pet slots.   I usually use recharge-intensive pet IO's, but I saw builds where a chance for smashing (slow set), or the chance for negative (-def set) were slotted.  How do chance for damage procs work in pet slots?

 

Final Issue:  Similar to the above damage proc, what about the health procs?   I was specifically thinking about Dark Servant with the absorb proc, or the +heal/end proc (pvp IO).  How do those work in pet slots?

 

Any help is greatly appreciated!

-r0y

Alright so first, yeah hell on earth has a long recharge, but it also has like a 2 minute duration. And with a high recharge IO build, like my hell on earth lasts 2 minutes and recharges in a little over 4 I think, which is not bad. It's a genuinely solid power.  Hell on earth, in addition to buffing a minion decently and having a cool animation, summons little fire imp things that do like 50 damage each per hit. Over the duration if none of them get killed you can have 4-6 of them following you around, which is a large amount of extra random damage and chaos to introduce to a fight. 

 

Now, pet defense IOs. The pet +defense and +resist auras are considered set bonuses. This means that once you slot them in the power they are always on. Hell on earth is a useful mule for some of those procs, you can 6 slot it with 3 recharge and 3 procs and easily fit the last 3 def/resistance procs into your pets and have pretty solidly tanky pets because of it. 

 

With damage procs, the way it works is that pets can fire damage procs that can be slotted into them. Procs fire on attacks that affect the individual attack being used. So like, enforcers have 4 attacks that lower defense. Every one of these attacks can proc a defense debuff set damage proc, and better, EVERY ATTACK HAS IT'S OWN PROC PER MINUTE COUNT. What that last bit means is that you proc that damage quite alot. Figuring out how many attacks your pets have that can proc a specific proc isn't something I can direct you to, I dont know where that data is, but I'm sure someone does. 

[Frosticus]

The only damage proc I put into my demon/storm (at least demon side) was the slow - smash damage into the prince.

you "could" put all the pet bonus procs into hell on earth, but I personally feel that is a misguided approach.

 

it is a strong buff for the prince, who already wrecks stuff, and you can have - I'm gonna say 9 imps - out at peak. I've counted 7. It isn't that hard to perma the imps so you always have 1 out.

when everything is out in full force and all your demons are laying their -res the damage is unparalleled. 

 

It may be counter intuitive, but I put the " chance for buildup" proc in my hell on earth with the thought being there are so many of them running around that is should fire a lot. I honestly never monitored it though, so ymmv. 

Edited February 4, 2020 by Frosticus

[BGSacho]

The others have covered the questions you have asked, but I'm here to cover what you didn't ask(those pesky unknown unknowns!).

Other sources of procs

IO procs are not the only, nor the biggest damage contributor you can add to your character. The interface incarnates(specifically, the radial versions of whichever flavor you like) provide a global DoT proc which will easily equal 10-15% of the total dps for all your pets. Comparatively, Musculature Alpha(45%, with some creeping into ED) will improve just the straight damage of your pets(not counting any procs) by at most ~20%(100% ED from slotting + 25% from supremacy = 225% ED vs 270% to simplify calculation). Pets like Hell on Earth and Gang War gain a disproportionate amount from the interface(20-25%).

Similarly, Hybrid Assault Radial is a "super-proc" that takes a little bit of setup, but is devastating on an MM. In order for it to work, you need to dismiss all your pets, toggle it, then summon them back. As long as they don't die, you can retoggle it later without resummoning them and they will still get the buff. The proc does more damage than a purple proc, which already does double the damage of a normal proc. Imagine having a super-purple proc on all your pets. Hybrid Assault Radial will easily contribute 20% of your pets' total DPS, more for Hell on Earth and Gang War. This incarnate is one of the tricks that pushes MMs to break pylon damage races, scoring higher than even scrappers.

Since both these "damage procs" are independent of your primary, and don't cost any slots, they are highly effective on the non-S tier primaries(i.e. not Thugs/Demons).

Proc Math 

(Disclaimer: Keep in mind, the "dps" calculations come with some caveats - damage scales with purple patch, pets don't utilize their powers optimally(recent testing shows they will achieve about 50-70% of optimal "use on cooldown" utilization), so use the calculations as comparisons between pets, not as exact matches with say, a scrapper.)

Procs, assuming they are slotted into powers with reasonable recharge(<16s), will provide roughly 3.5 PPM * ~71 damage(scaled down by pet level) = ~4 dps per power per pet. For example, Punks have 2 KD "reasonable recharge" powers, so they can expect 4 * 2 * 2 = 16 dps from slotting the Explosive Force proc. Compare that to a "proc monster" build with 200% recharge, which gets 4 * 3 = 12 dps out of the proc - you're matching as good as or better slot efficiency!

A counter-example, zombies have life drain(30s recharge), which can get a maximum of 2 ppm, or roughly 2.3 * 1 * 3 = ~7 dps out of slotting cloud senses - not really impressive.

The biggest "proc monsters" are:

Enforcers - 2 -def procs slotting into 4 powers for a rough estimate of 4 dps * 4 powers * 2 pets * 2 procs = 64 dps. Half these powers are AoE so the single-target damage can be lower, but the AoE is insane.
Grave Knights - same deal as enforcers, but mostly single target.
Jounin - same as GKs. Can struggle to slot both procs since Ninjas don't have an extra pet.

Soldiers(!!) - 2 -def procs into 3 powers for a total of 4 * 3 * 2 * 2 = 48 dps.
Spec Ops - 2 -def procs into 3 powers, same total.

And the big pets:

Demon Prince - 5-6 slow powers for a total of ~20 dps
Bruiser - 5-6 KB powers(some with higher recharge)
Lich - 5 -Hit powers
Commando? - Don't have his powers written down, but I think he has decent -def powers. 

 

What about those extra pets?

Gang War and Hell on Earth, assuming you can keep them alive(some secondaries are just much better at this than others), will provide a significant amount of damage. You can rule-of-thumb them as having an extra set of T1 pets for their duration. Hell on Earth tends to do slightly more damage than Gang War, but Gang War lasts longer. As for Soul Extraction, the dps isn't very impressive, you can roughly equate it to having half an extra T2 pet(if you spawn it from a lich), so it's a better target for dumping your extra auras on. At least it lasts a long while and is reasonably tanky.

Is there anything else I'm missing to increase my DPS?

A lot of people (understandably) focus entirely on their pets as an MM, and neglect to take any attacks of their own. I think this is a mistake. Synthetic testing shows that an MM rotating 2 attacks can match the DPS of the powerhouse T3 pets(prince, bruiser), but with two main benefits:

1) you can focus targets this way while still keeping bodyguard up with defensive pets
2) the attacks draw aggro, and the damage from the mobs is mitigated through your (often superior) defenses and smeared all across your pets

Taking attacks is obviously not advisable for /Storm, which already have their hands full. However, I think any tankermind MM should at least take their T2 attack, and also consider taking Cross Punch. Cross Punch is an amazingly underrated power which, if you have the power slots, will provide you with:

- Reasonable DPS, it's a proc monster
- Can slot -Res in it
- With both synergies of Kick and Punch, it will do roughly the same damage as you T2 power
- With both synergies, each cross punch gives you 10% recharge/5 seconds per target hit, which you can keep up permanently during the fight! It's unlikely you'd ever hit more than 1-2 mobs, barring some really good setup, but even with a single mob it's 10% recharge, something builds often chase through IO slotting.
- You can add a Force Feedback proc to that, netting you another roughly 15% recharge when used off cooldown(btw, many of the T2 damage powers can slot this as well)

- You punch people in the face

IMO, Cross Punch(+ Kick/Boxing for synergy) is an easy pick if you're already taking Fighting for Tough and Weave.

 

Edited February 4, 2020 by BGSacho

[r0y]

All excellent comments and recommendations, thank you all for that.

 

@Frosticus - yeah, I am not sure about the +buildup in Hell on Earth (HoE), as @tremor3258 pointed out, procs fire off and the +buildup may not be well utilized in HoE.  I would love to hear more about this, I'll search around the forums for the discussions that @tremor3258 mentioned).

 

Thank you all, again!

[r0y]

5 minutes ago, BGSacho said:

The others have covered the questions you have asked, but I'm here to cover what you didn't ask(those pesky unknown unknowns!)

...snip...

Dang, @BGSacho, you should really think about writing a guide (if you have not done so already) on this!  So much good info!

 

Thank you!

[Felis Noctu]

I agree with most of BGSacho's post, but there was one part that I wanted to note on.

4 hours ago, BGSacho said:

1) you can focus targets this way while still keeping bodyguard up with defensive pets

 

But for those non-tankerminds there's always...

/macro [name] petcom_all Attack Defensive

 

Like */storm, there are some setups (such as the lesser-discussed "trollerminds") where the above will suit better for focus targeting than having a primary attack. Back before the shutdown, my namesake was a hybrid of tanker- and troller- (necro/dark/soul just kinda slides its way in there), and I had a hard time grabbing and slotting everything I needed as it was. My aggro draw came from my secondary, popping off Petrifying Gazes, Twilight Grasps, and Soul Tentacles/Storm, and I'd direct my pets with that macro (and others) as necessary. Like anything in CoH though, it's all situational! You gotta play to your strengths, preferences, and character concepts.

 

But back on topic, 100% to the Lich and Knights being your keys to procs on Necro. They're definitely monsters when they're built right.

 

If you do end up going Demons/Dark, Dark Servant is a decent dumping ground for crowd control procs IMHO. Dark Watcher's Despair (because of the -hit on everything), but also Lockdown, Gravitational Anchor, Debilitative Action, etc.

 

And that all reminds me that I still need to see if I can dig up my macro/bind list again. I'd hate to have to rewrite all of them...

Edited February 5, 2020 by Felis Noctu

[TheSpiritFox]

34 minutes ago, Felis Noctu said:

I agree with most of BGSacho's post, but there was one part that I wanted to note on.

 

But for those non-tankerminds there's always...

/macro [name] petcom_all Attack Defensive

 

Like */storm, there are some setups (such as the lesser-discussed "trollerminds") where the above will suit better for focus targeting than having a primary attack. Back before the shutdown, my namesake was a hybrid of tanker- and troller- (necro/dark/soul just kinda slides its way in there), and I had a hard time grabbing and slotting everything I needed as it was. My aggro draw came from my secondary, popping off Petrifying Gazes, Twilight Grasps, and Soul Tentacles/Storm, and I'd direct my pets with that macro (and others) as necessary. Like anything in CoH though, it's all situational! You gotta play to your strengths, preferences, and character concepts.

 

But back on topic, 100% to the Lich and Knights being your keys to procs on Necro. They're definitely monsters when they're built right.

 

If you do end up going Demons/Dark, Dark Servant is a decent dumping ground for crowd control procs IMHO. Dark Watcher's Despair (because of the -hit on everything), but also Lockdown, Gravitational Anchor, Debilitative Action, etc.

 

And that all reminds me that I still need to see if I can dig up my macro/bind list again. I'd hate to have to rewrite all of them...

Attack defensive removes bodyguard until the target dies. Pets do not provide bodyguard unless in follow, stay, or goto stance and defensive. 

[tremor3258]

On the interface incarnates, I really wish the 25 percent (core flawless) didnt roll each time it ticked, I appreciate the debuff effects but some extra DOT from the whole group would be nice.  

 

 

[Carnifax]

9 hours ago, Felis Noctu said:

But back on topic, 100% to the Lich and Knights being your keys to procs on Necro. They're definitely monsters when they're built right.

I'm also fond of the Universal Dam/KB2KD/Chance for knockdown in my Zombies. Rounded off their damage for me : 4 intensive recharge IOs for the set bonus + that, leaving one spot spare for a Pet unique. 

 

Watching things slip in zombie vomit gladdens my heart. 

 

 

[Felis Noctu]

21 hours ago, TheSpiritFox said:

Attack defensive removes bodyguard until the target dies. Pets do not provide bodyguard unless in follow, stay, or goto stance and defensive. 

Thank you for the correction! I had to go back and dig a bit deeper. Before I posted that I went and reviewed Supremacy to make sure I was remembering correctly, which only states they need to be in defensive mode to trigger the damage share. Poking around a bit more got me to Mastermind Strategy > Bodyguard, which specifically states the command restrictions as well. Looks like we still have some wiki polishing to do! Though as an aside, that was also intended for non-tankerminds. If you're staying out of the way bodyguard's a little less important.

 

However, I still feel the "focus" concept as a whole it a bit flawed. Most mastermind builds, not just */storm, have better things to do than pewpew. In the early levels sure! It'll totally help fill out your lacking rotation. At later stages of your build however you should have quite a bit more to manage. The only exception to that I believe is */forcefield, and even then you may still find yourself needing to rebubble mid-fight.

Edited February 5, 2020 by Felis Noctu

[Felis Noctu]

12 hours ago, Carnifax said:

I'm also fond of the Universal Dam/KB2KD/Chance for knockdown in my Zombies. Rounded off their damage for me : 4 intensive recharge IOs for the set bonus + that, leaving one spot spare for a Pet unique. 

 

Watching things slip in zombie vomit gladdens my heart.

Oooooh, never thought of that! I mostly stopped playing this char before Overwhelming Force was added, so the build didn't see updates until now.

 

Number One Rule: concept trumps minmaxing. Let's make a slippery mess!

[Vorlonagent]

On 2/4/2020 at 1:16 PM, BGSacho said:

The others have covered the questions you have asked, but I'm here to cover what you didn't ask(those pesky unknown unknowns!).

Other sources of procs

IO procs are not the only, nor the biggest damage contributor you can add to your character. The interface incarnates(specifically, the radial versions of whichever flavor you like) provide a global DoT proc which will easily equal 10-15% of the total dps for all your pets. Comparatively, Musculature Alpha(45%, with some creeping into ED) will improve just the straight damage of your pets(not counting any procs) by at most ~20%(100% ED from slotting + 25% from supremacy = 225% ED vs 270% to simplify calculation). Pets like Hell on Earth and Gang War gain a disproportionate amount from the interface(20-25%).

Similarly, Hybrid Assault Radial is a "super-proc" that takes a little bit of setup, but is devastating on an MM. In order for it to work, you need to dismiss all your pets, toggle it, then summon them back. As long as they don't die, you can retoggle it later without resummoning them and they will still get the buff. The proc does more damage than a purple proc, which already does double the damage of a normal proc. Imagine having a super-purple proc on all your pets. Hybrid Assault Radial will easily contribute 20% of your pets' total DPS, more for Hell on Earth and Gang War. This incarnate is one of the tricks that pushes MMs to break pylon damage races, scoring higher than even scrappers.

Since both these "damage procs" are independent of your primary, and don't cost any slots, they are highly effective on the non-S tier primaries(i.e. not Thugs/Demons).

Proc Math 

(Disclaimer: Keep in mind, the "dps" calculations come with some caveats - damage scales with purple patch, pets don't utilize their powers optimally(recent testing shows they will achieve about 50-70% of optimal "use on cooldown" utilization), so use the calculations as comparisons between pets, not as exact matches with say, a scrapper.)

Procs, assuming they are slotted into powers with reasonable recharge(<16s), will provide roughly 3.5 PPM * ~71 damage(scaled down by pet level) = ~4 dps per power per pet. For example, Punks have 2 KD "reasonable recharge" powers, so they can expect 4 * 2 * 2 = 16 dps from slotting the Explosive Force proc. Compare that to a "proc monster" build with 200% recharge, which gets 4 * 3 = 12 dps out of the proc - you're matching as good as or better slot efficiency!

A counter-example, zombies have life drain(30s recharge), which can get a maximum of 2 ppm, or roughly 2.3 * 1 * 3 = ~7 dps out of slotting cloud senses - not really impressive.

The biggest "proc monsters" are:

Enforcers - 2 -def procs slotting into 4 powers for a rough estimate of 4 dps * 4 powers * 2 pets * 2 procs = 64 dps. Half these powers are AoE so the single-target damage can be lower, but the AoE is insane.
Grave Knights - same deal as enforcers, but mostly single target.
Jounin - same as GKs. Can struggle to slot both procs since Ninjas don't have an extra pet.

Soldiers(!!) - 2 -def procs into 3 powers for a total of 4 * 3 * 2 * 2 = 48 dps.
Spec Ops - 2 -def procs into 3 powers, same total.

And the big pets:

Demon Prince - 5-6 slow powers for a total of ~20 dps
Bruiser - 5-6 KB powers(some with higher recharge)
Lich - 5 -Hit powers
Commando? - Don't have his powers written down, but I think he has decent -def powers. 

 

What about those extra pets?

Gang War and Hell on Earth, assuming you can keep them alive(some secondaries are just much better at this than others), will provide a significant amount of damage. You can rule-of-thumb them as having an extra set of T1 pets for their duration. Hell on Earth tends to do slightly more damage than Gang War, but Gang War lasts longer. As for Soul Extraction, the dps isn't very impressive, you can roughly equate it to having half an extra T2 pet(if you spawn it from a lich), so it's a better target for dumping your extra auras on. At least it lasts a long while and is reasonably tanky.

Is there anything else I'm missing to increase my DPS?

A lot of people (understandably) focus entirely on their pets as an MM, and neglect to take any attacks of their own. I think this is a mistake. Synthetic testing shows that an MM rotating 2 attacks can match the DPS of the powerhouse T3 pets(prince, bruiser), but with two main benefits:

1) you can focus targets this way while still keeping bodyguard up with defensive pets
2) the attacks draw aggro, and the damage from the mobs is mitigated through your (often superior) defenses and smeared all across your pets

Taking attacks is obviously not advisable for /Storm, which already have their hands full. However, I think any tankermind MM should at least take their T2 attack, and also consider taking Cross Punch. Cross Punch is an amazingly underrated power which, if you have the power slots, will provide you with:

- Reasonable DPS, it's a proc monster
- Can slot -Res in it
- With both synergies of Kick and Punch, it will do roughly the same damage as you T2 power
- With both synergies, each cross punch gives you 10% recharge/5 seconds per target hit, which you can keep up permanently during the fight! It's unlikely you'd ever hit more than 1-2 mobs, barring some really good setup, but even with a single mob it's 10% recharge, something builds often chase through IO slotting.
- You can add a Force Feedback proc to that, netting you another roughly 15% recharge when used off cooldown(btw, many of the T2 damage powers can slot this as well)

- You punch people in the face

IMO, Cross Punch(+ Kick/Boxing for synergy) is an easy pick if you're already taking Fighting for Tough and Weave.

 

Thank you for this post. 

I came to the forums today specifically to ask if MM pets can proc incarnate Interface and Hybrid powers.  It'd be silly if they didn't but the Devs could have decided it was too powerful for them to do it too.

[Carnifax]

14 hours ago, Felis Noctu said:

Oooooh, never thought of that! I mostly stopped playing this char before Overwhelming Force was added, so the build didn't see updates until now.

 

Number One Rule: concept trumps minmaxing. Let's make a slippery mess!

Given how unproccable zombies are generally the 20% chance (it still seems to be a flat rate rather than a PPM, weirdly) across 3 zombies with 2 single attacks and a narrow cone is quite decent.

 

Ive no idea why its a flat 20% though.

[Redlynne]

2 hours ago, Carnifax said:

I've no idea why its a flat 20% though.

UNIVERSAL damage set.

[xl8]

On 2/4/2020 at 4:16 PM, BGSacho said:

Procs, assuming they are slotted into powers with reasonable recharge(<16s), will provide roughly 3.5 PPM * ~71 damage(scaled down by pet level) = ~4 dps per power per pet. For example, Punks have 2 KD "reasonable recharge" powers, so they can expect 4 * 2 * 2 = 16 dps from slotting the Explosive Force proc. Compare that to a "proc monster" build with 200% recharge, which gets 4 * 3 = 12 dps out of the proc - you're matching as good as or better slot efficiency!

A counter-example, zombies have life drain(30s recharge), which can get a maximum of 2 ppm, or roughly 2.3 * 1 * 3 = ~7 dps out of slotting cloud senses - not really impressive.

Shorter recharge means less chance to proc. A power with a 30sec+ recharge will process more.

[Coyote]

13 hours ago, xl8 said:

Shorter recharge means less chance to proc. A power with a 30sec+ recharge will process more.

 

Except that the usual damage procs have a 3.5 PPM and cap out at 90% chance to proc, which occurs at 16 second recharge... so a longer recharge doesn't actually increase the chance to proc on a damage power (though it would on a power like Chance to Hold, which has a lower proc chance), but just lowers the number of checks that the power manages per minute.

[xl8]

On 2/26/2021 at 9:06 AM, Coyote said:

which occurs at 16 second recharge...

Just thought it misleading to say <16s

[Verix]

On 2/4/2020 at 3:16 PM, BGSacho said:

A lot of people (understandably) focus entirely on their pets as an MM, and neglect to take any attacks of their own. I think this is a mistake. Synthetic testing shows that an MM rotating 2 attacks can match the DPS of the powerhouse T3 pets

 

A quick note on this point: if you slot 2 powers for an attack as a MM you will lose a lot of tankyness or your pets will.

 

I made a decision with my time build to instead focus heavily on recharge with the main idea being that the Judgement power will always be the best DPS boost available when I want one. And my second big dps boost would be gang war.

 

 

I will make the suggestion that you should take a very long look at your power lists before taking attacks as a MM because the returns are greatly diminished. Some of the sets definitely have room to take attack powers because they probably need some buffs anyway.

[Coyote]

It depends on the set. Robots attacks are terrible, Mercs are poor, Beasts are very good, Demons are great.

 

Beasts/Kin: with relatively minor +Damage boost (+100%, so not a full Fulcrum Shift), the damages are:

3 second recharge (Swarm): 102 and Achilles Heel IO

6 second recharge (Hawk): 226 and Force Feedback IO

14 second cone (Ravens): 204 and Achilles Heel IO. Also of note is that Beasts AoE is really poor, so this is actually the character's main AoE damage even after the level 32 upgrade.

These attacks also generate Pack Mentality, to boost the critical chances of the beasts.

 

Demons are also good with damage, but more importantly, add -Res and places to slot Force Feedback.

 

Endurance is really the issue... MMs can run hot due to increased End costs, so it depends on how well the secondary supports Recovery or +Endurance. But if you can support it, there are some sets where I feel the attacks are worth it:

Demons and Beasts definitely have good attacks. I would take 2-3 from these for sure.

Necro has decent attacks, and can help with Endurance burn since you can put Theft of Essence in Life Drain. I would take 2-3 here also.

Thugs attacks aren't too good, but can slot FF and Thugs like more Recharge. I would probably take the two Knockback attacks and see how the Endurance plays out.

Mercs, similar to Thugs but don't benefit so much from Recharge, so I would take the knockback attacks if the secondary is one that really benefits from Recharge. Burst can slot AH, however, so if there is room to spare I might take that... but not on most builds.

Ninja and Robot attacks, ugh. For Ninjas it's both more effective and thematic to take the Fighting pool. For Robots, I could see taking the AoE and using procs to get AoE damage before 32... after that, I'm not sure it's worthwhile. The single-target attacks are crap in any case.

 

Also, if you're going to run in Bodyguard mode, losing some personal defense is rarely a major issue. The only time I feel personal defenses are important are on a MM who is micromanaging the pets for efficient attacking, in which case I'm probably not taking the attacks more because I'm too busy controlling them. It will be a rare build where I'm attacking AND I'm controlling the pets as they attack, so in most cases I'll be attacking/Bodyguard, or controlling/Personal Defense, but in the latter case, I'm not taking attacks anyhow.

[tidge]

17 hours ago, Coyote said:

It depends on the set. Robots attacks are terrible, Mercs are poor, Beasts are very good, Demons are great.

Is this assessment of Robots based on a sliding scale of some sort?

 

'Bots has a slotting problem: in order to make their ranged attacks most effective, their KB needs to be turned into KD (for patch damage) which eats a slot, and the primary doesn't have a "Gang War" power to slot the Aura pieces. But...

 

The Soulbound Allegeince is a fine piece, and the KD is a very nice soft control mechanism. These aren't classic "%damage procs" but I leverage them.

 

As far as attacks from the MM itself, I think Photon Grenade can have a KB->KD piece and a %resistance debuff, which helps the 'Bots (probably more than a %damage proc would help). IIRC I use the MM attacks (on 'Bots/Traps) primarily as soft control/debuffs.

 

Edit: as @Coyote wrote: I wouldn't take MM attacks before lvl 32 unless I had a very specific concept/reason.

Edited March 5, 2021 by tidge

[Coyote]

4 hours ago, tidge said:

Is this assessment of Robots based on a sliding scale of some sort?

 

I meant the personal MM attacks in the Robots powerset.

 

The actual Robots attacks themselves pretty much bracket the scale: I think the Incendiary Swarm Missiles are the best attack available to MM henchmen... and Full Laser Auto (and its 6+ second animation time) is the worst. But overall, they're not terrible. Just the personal attacks.