Is Time better than Radiation for a secondary?

[Marshal Valor]

I'm building a thugs mastermind but I wondered which of the two was better. Looking at the numbers in minds/pines it's hard to tell which is better so I figured I would ask and see if anyone has played both to give an opinion on the subject. I have little to no experience with those sets but am well versed when it comes to playing a mastermind.

[Gulbasaur]

They're both broad-spectrum debuff sets with a few buffs thrown in for good measure and, frankly, they're both pretty decent. 

 

Time has a few clunky mechanics with the Delayed mechanic but is a very solid set all round, with a good mix of buffs, debuffs and a heal. It's hard to go wrong with time as it has a decent ToHit debuff aura, a heal and with defence added in later on. 

 

Rad is a very potent debuff set with one (fine) heal and one (great) buff. It strongly favours tightly clustered enemies and has a bit of a set up for the toggles, but once enemies are in the debuff field, they're not walking out again. I ran a something/rad MM for a bit but found it actually a bit overpowered for chomping through missions with. It also has a number of powers that are, frankly, very safe to skip over and is a very early blooming power set, so it's strong from the get go and lends itself well to power pools. Rad it notable for, I think, being able to use every single kind of debuff the game has. Rad/ defenders were known in the days before City of Villains as being able to solo pretty much anything given enough time. 

 

I'd say time is a set that needs to be played more actively, whereas rad basically has you use three debuff powers at the start of a fight and then you go into combat. 

 

They're both very strong sets. 

[TheSpiritFox]

Rad is better solo overall. Much easier to manage toggles in a solo situation and you can completely neuter spawns. Time brings less overall debuff to the set but has a bit more buff for your bang than rad does, allowing you to very easily defense cap your pets while still having solid debuff and heals. In groups it's no contest, time is far better because of the cast time of toggle debuffs and trying to manage debuff anchors in a moving group. Rad will only shine in groups on the toughest targets. 

[Scarlet Shocker]

Rad's biggest issue as an MM secondary is its lack of shields.

[Dr Causality]

Preface:   I'm always amused by how experienced strong players in this game can still have such radically different opinions.    This game is fairly easy.  Both sets are viable and you should play what you'll have the most fun with...

---

 

With that out out of the way, I'll tell you what I really think.  😉

 

Whether teaming or solo /Time is miles ahead on fully IO'ed lvl 50 builds.   It's in a totally different league from /Rad, particularly if you play Tankermind style.    (And maybe my strong preference for Tankermind style is why our experiences and opinions are so different...)   /Rad will probably level more easily, especially if not fully kitting out with Attuned IO's on the way to 50.    /Time doesn't come into it's overpowered state until well after lvl 28 where you get Farsight, then get it fully slotted and stacked with other sources of +Def to hit full soft cap.  

 

The closest MM comparison to /Rad on my take is /Dark Miasma.   /Dark can do most everything /Rad can except /Dark has a 4 x bigger heal and Shadowfall that slotted gives you a team buff of around +5.75% Def, and +23% E/N/Psi Resistance, plus a healing pet, and aoe stealth that helps with accidental premature pet aggro.   /Dark's Shadowfall  also offers a built-in power to slot all the Def and Res IO uniques.     Outside of theme,  I see almost no reason to play /Rad on a MM when /Dark Miasma is an option.   But if the Controller /Darkness Affinity set were an option on MM's, then I'd see very little reason to play, /Rad, /Dark Miasma or /Time on a MM.  🙂

 

/Rad

Compared to /Time, starts out stronger and probably maybe would be the better set.....if you were stuck to permanently using SO's or generics.  Hence why there's a lingering sense that it's one of the strongest support sets in the game despite all the more recent discussions that it's now too slow for the rapid pace of the game's current team meta.     Overall  /Rad is a strong debuff set, but very lacking in buffs for henchmen/pets that other top MM sets have.  

 

Here are /Rad's shortcomings:

• You have no +Def for pets/henchmen.  Meaning that even Thugs with their massive up to +24% Def from 2 x Enforcer's Maneuvers still can't be softcapped without Incarnate powers.  (Maxing out at 38% with IO's and Manuevers, so that /Rad needs Incarnate powers or buff from teammates to hit even regular non-incarnate 45% softcap.  .)
• You also have no +Res for pets/henchmen. This makes them more vulnerable to being one shotted. 
• Has no +Def or +Res for yourself meaning you have to choose MM's powers and IO's set bonuses to fill in your own Def and Resistance, when you could instead be slotting for procs and dmg.
• You also have no mezz protection like /FF, /Traps or Sonic do. 
• Rad survivability turns mostly on toggles, meaning for safety have to build for mezz protection or carry trays of breakfrees to avoid  "detoggled death syndrome".  
• Relying on toggles also means the set is sloooow.  You have to fire off 2 - 3 powers for mitigation to get going. easily enough time for pets to have died from the Alpha.   Relying on toggles also makes the set very active at the beginning of battles.    /Rad is still firing up it's toggles when other sets have already gotten off an attack and Provoke to draw aggro...
• Rad's aoe heal is mediocre.   (For set with only two buffs, I'd like to see the heal at least be top tier...)
• Rad has weak Mezzes.  Choking Cloud is a mostly useless chance for Mag2 Hold.   EM Pulse is very situational, at a massive 300s base cooldown, and worse yet a -1000% End Recovery  debuff on yourself making it difficult to keep your much needed debuff toggles up in a fight.   Other sets without buffs like /Poison and /Trick Arrow fill in some of that survival gap with reliable Mag3 mezzes. 

 

The biggest things /Rad has going for it is strong -Regen and the massive Fallout Nuke if teammates die.     (Fallout's cooldown is too high to use reliably.   But on teams of /Rad's we used to port around a permanently dead lowbie and alternate between Fallout Nuke's....cheeasy but fun.)  

 

 

/Time 

Time gets a slower start,  but by level 50 with IO sets is,  if not the best in the game, then is at minimum a top tier Tankermind set.   Farsight out of the box an gives your MM, pets and team almost +15% Def buff.  This can be further Powerboosted up to a full 21% using Epic Powerboost.  (There's also another cheesy trick that purportedly can get it up to a total of +28%.)   This +Def gives you a huge amount of flexibility and freedom in builds, letting you build for damage in procs, power choices and Incarnate selection, where other sets have to choose survival powers and slotting.  It also frees you up to choose a Resistance Epic shield so you can not only be full Soft capped but also full 75% Smash/Lethal Resistance Capped.  

 

No other MM set can give your MM itself this much Def.   Traps has about 1% more of out the box, but can't be Powerboosted so falls about 5% below PB-ed Farsight.    Force Field is only up to 12% for your MM, and likewise can't be Powerboosted.     Next best are the stealth aura toggles from /Dark, /Cold and /Storm at about +5.75% Def.  

 

/Time is the only MM set that can get Thugs to 59% full Incarnate softcap without relying on Destiny, Hybrid or external buffs from Teammates.     But in addition to that massive +Def, /Time also gets:

• Two heals and Rez that doubles as a big 120s duration single target +Regen and +Dmg buff when used on living targets.
• Single target Mag3 Hold that can be proc-ed into a Dmg power and/or a somewhat reliable mag5 hold.
• AOE Slow and Mag3 Hold patch that can be double stacked and again procced out turning it into a Dmg power.
• -Tohit, -Dmg debuff toggle
• Permeable AOE -22.5% Res debuff
• AOE, +15% End, +50% Rech, and 30% Recovery team buffs 
• AOE+Tohit team buff that's equal to Tactics.

 

Nothing is perfect.  /Time's shortcomings are:

• Mediocre -Regen
• No mezz protection
• No +Res
• No aoe team +Dmg buff (does have a single target +18.75% Dmg buff that w/ high Recharge can be comfortably kept up on about three pets or teammates.)

Literally everything else is covered.

 

If you want /Time can be played very inactively, relying on just the +Def like /FF.   I'm not saying you should skip it's other great powers, but all you really have to have is Farsight for Def, which can be made perma from just Enhancement slotting.   It's a much faster set than /Rad.   Farsight only has to be clicked once every 120s.   Not relying on toggles means Mezzes are not such a worry since  you can still have decentlyhigh or near soft cap Def when mezzed.  The Distortion Field patch has a 45s duration and keeps working through mezzes.    The buffs can be applied outside of combat, or on the way to the next spawn.   The base heal  is on a longer cooldown than Rad's, but is also bigger (20.54% vs 13.34% base).  This means you can spam your heal less often for the same overall heal amount.   It's also a heal over time, so you can prebuff just before combat, with some of the heal lingering into the beginning of the fight.   Likewise the -Tohit and -Dmg debuff is an aura from your MM, so is already toggled on when a fight starts. 

 

/Rad spends the first 2 or 3 combat actions building up the debuffs it's pets need to survive.  /Time due to it's Def buffs can be built for more damage and can instead spend those first 2 or 3 actions on attacks and mezzes on the annoying targets.  

 

The toughest build choice with /Time is choosing between Epic Powerboost and an Epic Resistance Shield.  Another 6% aoe Team Def vs. 75% capped Smash/Lethal for your MM when you stack Epic Shield with Tough and the +Res Uniques or IO set bonuses.    There's an even crazier thing I haven't gotten around to experimenting with in game.   Destiny Clarion is another source of Powerboost, plus Mezz protection.   I hear you can stack the Powerboost from Mace Mastery with Clarion's Powerboost.   There would be gaps when Clarion on was down, but you have so much +Rech with /Time that can fill your regular Farsight and Powerboost, and still have them both up again when Clarion is.    With Clarion and PB stacked,  Mid's shows me Farsight's +Def goes up to a whopping 28%  33% **.  But you'd also have the option of just Clarion with a Epic Resistance Shield.    

 

**Edit**  Read on below where @Bopper  schools me on how to properly stack Powerboosts getting it higher than I realized was possible.

**Edit2**  A more succinct way to put this argument would have been /Rad doesn't have a 10+ page threaded dedicated to needing to nerf it. 

 

---

In sum:   /Time is so good that it makes some people think it makes even Ninjas decent. 😜  (Paging @Redlynne)

Edited February 14, 2020 by Dr Causality

[Bopper]

31 minutes ago, Dr Causality said:

With Clarion and PB stacked,  Mid's shows me Farsight's +Def goes up to a whopping 28%

Actually, you can reach 27.9% with that combo without enhancing Farsight. With enhancements, probably get 33.5%. 

[Dr Causality]

22 minutes ago, Bopper said:

Actually, you can reach 27.9% with that combo without enhancing Farsight. With enhancements, probably get 33.5%. 

Fascinating.  So Mid's numbers are wrong.  How does the math work on this?  Are you saying that the two powerboosts stack multiplicatively instead of additively?  

 

[The MM version of Farsight starts out with just a 9.38% unenhanced, so you're saying stacking the two PB you can get to nearly 3 x the base Def even without slotting.    Mace Powerboost is 65% and Clarion looks to be 80% at peak from what I can tell, so the math checks out:    1.65*1.80 = 2.97       2.97 * 9.38 base = 27.86%]

 

That's so broken if that how it really works.  Lol.  

 

*edit* I guess I never though about and had no idea how the two powerboosts would work. 

Edited February 14, 2020 by Dr Causality

[Bopper]

9 minutes ago, Dr Causality said:

Fascinating.  So Mid's numbers are wrong.  So your saying that the two powerboosts stack multiplicatively instead of additively?  

 

[The MM version of Farsight starts out with just a 9.38% unenhanced, so you're saying stacking the two PB you can get to nearly 3 x the base Def even without slotting.    Mace Powerboost is 65% and Clarion looks to be 80% at peak from what I can tell, so the math checks out:    1.65*1.80 = 2.97       2.97 * 9.38 base = 27.86%]

 

That's so broken if that how it really works.  Lol.  

Yup. But you have to use Clarion, PB, then Farsight. If you go PB, then Clarion, then Farsight, it becomes additive boosts instead of multiplicative. My defender caps at 50% defense for everyone (and 44% tohit, which is unenhanced)

Edited February 14, 2020 by Bopper

[Dr Causality]

2 minutes ago, Bopper said:

Yup. But you have to use Clarion, PB, then Farsight. If you go PB, then Clarion, then Farsight, it becomes additive boosts instead of multiplicative. My defender caps at 50% defense for everyone (and 44% tohit, which is unenhanced)

Wacky.   I wonder which one is a bug?   Clarion first making it multiplicative?  Or PB first making it additive?

 

 

Christ.   So /Darkness Affinity can do the same thing, but with it's additional Shadow Fall and Maneuvers toggles that means full 59% Incarnate soft cap for the team.  

[Bopper]

If it can be power boosted, it can do the combo. I take grant invisibility, and I dish out essentially Weave to all my teammates. Not that they need it with my Farsight, but it's another 120 second duration power getting beefy. I believe Temporal Selection also gets heavily boosted.

[Redlynne]

6 hours ago, Dr Causality said:

In sum:   /Time is so good that it makes some people think it makes even Ninjas decent. 😜  (Paging @Redlynne)

It's true.  Time Manipulation makes Ninjas survive.  In my experience though, I find that the superior use of Temporal Mending is either during or after a fight, rather than before.  This is because if you use Temporal Mending to "pre-buff" before a fight you're "wasting" a chunk of healing potential on overhealing and also potentially wasting healing over time (HoT) ticks before your Pets start taking damage.  Contrast that performance with waiting for a little damage to be dealt to the Pets and then using Temporal Mending during the fight, so as to counter the damage that they've taken after they've taken it more efficiently/effectively, and/or simply casting Temporal Mending once the fight is over before moving on to the next spawn group (while soloing) so as to top up your Pets before going into the next battle AND giving Temporal Mending time to recharge for use during the next battle such that you can use it more often with larger/more efficient returns on the expense of endurance and timing of recharge uptime.

 

If you use Temporal Mending just BEFORE entering a fight, you need to WAIT for it to recharge before you can use it again DURING the fight.

If you use Temporal Mending just AFTER ending a fight, you'll not only heal most if not all of your Pets to full HP while on your way to your next fight but also have the power recharged in time use USE the power again DURING the fight if you need it.

 

This is one of those things that isn't all that obvious when looking at the powers in your favorite build planner, but it is something that I've learned to make use of/exploit in the context of "shaping" my standard operating tactics engagement strategy for how to open and progress through each combat.  Using Temporal Mending before a fight often times meant that I'd only be able to use it once ... maybe twice when it mattered most ... when fighting spawn groups, but using Temporal Mending during AND after fights would mean that I was using the power much more often and also much more efficiently, increasing the survivability and viability of my Pets, even at very low levels (think 14 in Praetoria) against a wide variety of threats.

 

That simple switch in terms of timing of when to use Temporal Mending (and why I'd use it when) means that it is now actually remarkably rare for me to need to resummon any of my Ninjas except after logging in.  If I'm playing them right and supporting them "correctly" they don't die and I don't need to resummon them ... just heal them with Temporal Mending in as efficient a manner as possible.

[Dr Causality]

2 minutes ago, Bopper said:

I take grant invisibility, and I dish out essentially Weave to all my teammates.

I used to do for the team with two characters when I dualboxxed back on Live.   Now you're doing the same thing with a single character.  

[Dr Causality]

3 hours ago, Redlynne said:

In my experience though, I find that the superior use of Temporal Mending is either during or after a fight, rather than before.  This is because if you use Temporal Mending to "pre-buff" before a fight you're "wasting" a chunk of healing potential on overhealing and also potentially wasting healing over time (HoT) ticks before your Pets start taking damage.  Contrast that performance with waiting for a little damage to be dealt to the Pets and then using Temporal Mending during the fight, so as to counter the damage that they've taken after they've taken it more efficiently/effectively, and/or simply casting Temporal Mending once the fight is over before moving on to the next spawn group (while soloing) so as to top up your Pets before going into the next battle AND giving Temporal Mending time to recharge for use during the next battle such that you can use it more often with larger/more efficient returns on the expense of endurance and timing of recharge uptime.

 

If you use Temporal Mending just BEFORE entering a fight, you need to WAIT for it to recharge before you can use it again DURING the fight.

If you use Temporal Mending just AFTER ending a fight, you'll not only heal most if not all of your Pets to full HP while on your way to your next fight but also have the power recharged in time use USE the power again DURING the fight if you need it.

 

This is one of those things that isn't all that obvious when looking at the powers in your favorite build planner, but it is something that I've learned to make use of/exploit in the context of "shaping" my standard operating tactics engagement strategy for how to open and progress through each combat.  Using Temporal Mending before a fight often times meant that I'd only be able to use it once ... maybe twice when it mattered most ... when fighting spawn groups, but using Temporal Mending during AND after fights would mean that I was using the power much more often and also much more efficiently, increasing the survivability and viability of my Pets, even at very low levels (think 14 in Praetoria) against a wide variety of threats.

 

You're making an unnecessary choice between before and after, when you can easily have both.     Assuming you have good global recharge like almost all /Time builds will, and you slotted Temporal Mending for Recharge, then Temporal Mending's cooldown will easily be under 6s....and it has 6s duration.  You can have the heal over time up constantly.   In terms of prebuffing with it before combat, that means you can cast it, then use your opener to start the fight, fight for 4-5s and then have it up again and healing you, all before the prebuff Heal over time from out of combat has even stopped ticking.  

 

My experience is bit different than yours.   Because it's not all at once or front loaded, I find that to get the most of Temporal Healing you optimally need to use it slightly before you see that you need a heal.   And it works best when you have enough Recharge to slightly overlap and stack two Temporal Mending heals at once.

Edited February 14, 2020 by Dr Causality
Added clarification that you can easily have it up constantly.

[Dr Causality]

9 hours ago, Bopper said:

I believe Temporal Selection also gets heavily boosted.

Maybe you meant Temporal Mending is buffed?     Or I am I missing something else?       My understanding was that neither Regen,  nor the +dmg that Temporal Selection has are buffed with Powerboost. 

[Bopper]

15 minutes ago, Dr Causality said:

Maybe you meant Temporal Mending is buffed?     Or I am I missing something else?       My understanding was that neither Regen,  nor the +dmg that Temporal Selection has are buffed with Powerboost. 

You might be right. I suppose I assumed the regeneration would buff (to crazy dumb numbers), but I honestly have never checked.

[Redlynne]

8 hours ago, Dr Causality said:

You're making an unnecessary choice between before and after, when you can easily have both.     Assuming you have good global recharge like almost all /Time builds will, and you slotted Temporal Mending for Recharge, then Temporal Mending's cooldown will easily be under 6s....and it has 6s duration.  You can have the heal over time up constantly.   In terms of prebuffing with it before combat, that means you can cast it, then use your opener to start the fight, fight for 4-5s and then have it up again and healing you, all before the prebuff Heal over time from out of combat has even stopped ticking.  

 

My experience is bit different than yours.   Because it's not all at once or front loaded, I find that to get the most of Temporal Healing you optimally need to use it slightly before you see that you need a heal.   And it works best when you have enough Recharge to slightly overlap and stack two Temporal Mending heals at once.

Right now I'm still at Level 14 on my Ninja/Time so I haven't got slots (let alone sets) slotted in yet and am still dealing with unenhanced for recharge on Temporal Mending.  The calculus obviously changes when you're all slotted up and the recharge time on the power drops.