NPC Vendors Buy Merits for 200k inf each

[Haijinx]

On 2/24/2020 at 8:54 AM, VileTerror said:

To respond to the loading screen hints idea:

Please no?  Not until we have some other way to view those hints in-game, anyway.

My game loads so fast that I never have a chance to read any of those.  Not trying to do one of those "weird flexes" here either; I -want- to be able to read the hints (some are funny, and despite playing since 2004, some still provide information I didn't have before).  

I don't think most of us have this problem though?

[tidge]

I don't grok the problem as described nor does the proposed solution appear to address the problem. As near as I can tell the problem is that a player used merits to convert to recipes, but an SGmate felt she should have just used Inf instead? And that making Inf via the AH (where the recipes and IOs are for sale) was too complicated so the proposal is to send the SGmate to a vendor to get Inf to use in the AH instead?

 

Why didn't you just give the SGmate 24M Inf and direct her to the forums? I've given away at least as much to PUGmates who don't have Team Transport. I suppose I'm bad because I don't check up on them if they spent the Inf wisely or not!

[nzer]

7 hours ago, tidge said:

I don't grok the problem as described nor does the proposed solution appear to address the problem. As near as I can tell the problem is that a player used merits to convert to recipes, but an SGmate felt she should have just used Inf instead? And that making Inf via the AH (where the recipes and IOs are for sale) was too complicated so the proposal is to send the SGmate to a vendor to get Inf to use in the AH instead?

 

Why didn't you just give the SGmate 24M Inf and direct her to the forums? I've given away at least as much to PUGmates who don't have Team Transport. I suppose I'm bad because I don't check up on them if they spent the Inf wisely or not!

The problem is that the proper way to use reward merits isn't something players will naturally discover or intuitively grasp, so many players end up spending them inefficiently and flushing lots of potential inf down the drain. The proposed solution is to allow merits to be sold for inf, which is both easy to direct players toward and simple for them to do.

 

It's really fairly straightforward, but IMO it would be better to adjust the costs of existing merit sinks so they're all roughly equal. If the problem is newbies falling into traps, the solution should be removing the traps.

[Clave Dark 5]

12 hours ago, Haijinx said:

I don't think most of us have this problem though?

I do these days, what with my new system.

 

Regarding the "problem" here, I can see it.  In some ways I think game economies are purposefully made to be confusing and arcanely complex to either keep people interested into delving into it or to waste their time.  Why are there so many forms of money, for instance?

 

There is also a problem that some people just don't enjoy mucking about with numbers in the market instead of the pewpepew.  That doesn't make them dumb or foolish.  Whether this is a big enough problem to fret over (or to overreact to its point) is up to you to decide.

[Haijinx]

You could add some info to the "You received your First Reward Merit" pop up as well?

 

I'm not sure why you wouldn't want them also on the loading screen though?  The more the word gets out the better.  

Edited February 27, 2020 by Haijinx

[Yomo Kimyata]

8 hours ago, nzer said:

The problem is that the proper way to use reward merits isn't something players will naturally discover or intuitively grasp, so many players end up spending them inefficiently and flushing lots of potential inf down the drain. The proposed solution is to allow merits to be sold for inf, which is both easy to direct players toward and simple for them to do.

 

It's really fairly straightforward, but IMO it would be better to adjust the costs of existing merit sinks so they're all roughly equal. If the problem is newbies falling into traps, the solution should be removing the traps.

"the proper way to use reward merits"

 

I respectfully disagree.  No such thing as a "proper" way, and it is in no way a problem.  You can spend them all on large inspirations, if that's what floats your boat.  Using them to buy recipes or ATOs is totally legit.

 

There may be a "most efficient way to translate merits to inf", but I don't see how offering other choices of conversions is a "trap"?

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

On 2/23/2020 at 12:25 PM, Ukase said:

I have thought about this...but then I think again. Sometimes, ignorance is bliss. I have often thought about making a new character, calling it some fitting name, making a new SG, and announce that I would take any player that wanted a billion influence by level X, all they would have to do is play for an hour a week with their new character with my new character and we'd all do the same things - explores for reward merits->converters. Log off in Ouro at level 2-4 after having placed for sale converters. Rejoining a week later to the next part of making scads of inf. 

Sounds fine - except for the part where some would say - let's go do dfb! (or something far more fun to them than sifting through AH looking for recipes that can be bought for x, only to sell them to the vendor for x + y.) 

I wish I'd known about the forums of CoH when I first got the game in Issue 3. Seriously, I never knew they existed until someone told me. I literally had no idea that I was clueless. I thought I was doing quite well. Did a respec against the sky raiders, and I was the only one who wasn't losing endurance. Turns out, I wasn't slotting 1 acc, 5 damage. I was slotting one of each DO or SO that the power would take. 1 acc, 1 dam, 1 range, 1 end recovery, 1 recharge, 1 of ...and when I came to a power that took 8 kinds of enhancements...I'd asked how I could get a 7th and 8th slot and explained what I was doing to a teammate - then I got educated. Poor fellow had no idea how clueless I was, and neither did I. He said he was sorry, but all he could tell me was to go to the forums, because he didn't have the time to explain things, and referred me to the forums. Learned quite a bit on the forums!  

But it was also then that the game became more about math, and less about fun. No good success goes unpunished, I suppose. I'm more than happy to explain to anyone how to make influence if they want to know. But how to slot, how to play "well"...that I won't do, because I've really no way of knowing if my way of slotting or playing is any better than anyone else's. (I have a hunch I play more efficiently than most, but probably don't have nearly as much fun because I do most of it solo.) 

Ive actually been pondering my response to this for a few days so I hope it comes across as well as I hope it will.

 

Your first part frankly Im not quite sure what to make of it. I mean static thematic groups are certainly a thing, pretty common among the RP community in fact. But the way you describe its goal, well yeah that sounds terribly boring. Most such groups are about running story arcs and TFs together, hell even having friends outside the team make custom AE arcs for their static groups are all part of the RP community and its strength going back into the early years of Virtue. If you want to try a team that works together, and also earns merits do the early arcs together, do the hollows together( great merits there especially if you do all the parts and get the zone bonus) and I have every bit of hope youd enjoy such a way of developing a character and static team, and really shouldnt be too terribly hard to make some friends on everlasting open to such a thing, just need to find those with a similar play schedule.

 

This next part may come across as abit arrogant or elitist but I truly am just trying to be honest about my own knack with coh. I have never needed to use a character planner, nor read a build guide or even ask for build tips to develop my characters to reach the level of potential I envision for each based on their RP concept. Sometimes when for example my first toon using the new bio set I will need to respec a time or two to fine tune. Back on live I had the pattern of each time my character reached the min level to do one of the respec trials he would and then do a respec to fin tune the toon. Dropping powers I found unfun or rarely used, and trying others that felt fitting of the theme and seeing how they worked. Some pools became cornerstones of my average concept, since my characters are all leader types if the sets have enough end recovery to handle the leadership toggles I take leadership on them. If my characters are stealthy I try to justify recall friend in the build if I can fit it in early to help with teams staying together etc.

 

I had no trouble understanding how to build and slot from my first character on. I genuinely cant really understand how someone would assume that one could only use one of each type of enhancement. Like such a limitation never crossed my mind when I began in year one.

 

When i came to the forums on live around year 3, I came specifically because I grew curious between the disconnect I had mostly with fellow blaster mainers who seemed to accept eating dir often as part and package of a blaster. Ever blaster i built I built ever growing in tricks to keep them alive, but was never content with their squishiness. When Mental 2ndary was added to blasters it was a dream come true and I finally had the main blaster I wanted and then from then on, on the forums championed to see other blaster sets gain increased self sustaining tricks akin to mentals drain psyche. And here we are today with blasters finally being able to be played aggressively on the front line where they belong thanks to most 2ndaries now having some.

 

I dont focus on the Maths, the META nor number crunch. I have concept toons who perform very well who do not have more then a 60% or so enhancement to any given aspect of their powers, to better convey them being normal humans. I have builds that ignore some of the strongest powers in their sets for the same reason and who again perform very at a satisfying degree.

 

One suggestion for a static team Ill leave you with is Praetoria. Most who play there agree its so lonely many avoid it for that reason, but even a  static duo can make playing through those arcs much more fun. By the time you reach primal earth you tend to have a nice nest egg of merits to turn into converters for inf.

[Troo]

On 2/21/2020 at 12:26 PM, aethereal said:

Go to merit vendor > buy enh converters > put on market

 

and

 

Go to merit vendor > buy inf

This is not an awful idea. Just know that selling direct would be at a discount compared to what could be done otherwise.

 

At some point players would need to be introduced to the market. Salvage, recipes and crafted enhancements all do that.

[tidge]

10 hours ago, nzer said:

The problem is that the proper way to use reward merits isn't something players will naturally discover or intuitively grasp, so many players end up spending them inefficiently and flushing lots of potential inf down the drain. The proposed solution is to allow merits to be sold for inf, which is both easy to direct players toward and simple for them to do.

 

It's really fairly straightforward, but IMO it would be better to adjust the costs of existing merit sinks so they're all roughly equal. If the problem is newbies falling into traps, the solution should be removing the traps.

I feel like you are offended that there are different ways to play the game and spend the in-game rewards. Kudos to those folks who help explain things to others. We aren't stingy with advice. This seems like a solution in search of a problem.

 

Not everyone does things in a way that others think is efficient.

[Doc_Scorpion]

37 minutes ago, tidge said:

Not everyone does things in a way that others think is efficient.

Quoted. For. Truth.  There is no One True Way.

[nzer]

5 hours ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

"the proper way to use reward merits"

 

I respectfully disagree.  No such thing as a "proper" way, and it is in no way a problem. 

 

2 hours ago, tidge said:

I feel like you are offended that there are different ways to play the game and spend the in-game rewards.

 

2 hours ago, Doc_Scorpion said:

Quoted. For. Truth.  There is no One True Way.

Please read more than the first sentence before responding. Railroading people into playing the way I think they should play is literally the exact opposite of what I'm suggesting.

[Doc_Scorpion]

32 minutes ago, nzer said:

Please read more than the first sentence before responding. Railroading people into playing the way I think they should play is literally the exact opposite of what I'm suggesting.

That three different people addressed your comment in almost exactly the same way suggests that just maybe you weren't as clear as you thought.
 

14 hours ago, nzer said:

The problem is that the proper way to use reward merits isn't something players will naturally discover or intuitively grasp, so many players end up spending them inefficiently and flushing lots of potential inf down the drain.

Here is the first sentence in question...  Not only does it very plainly state that there is a "proper" way, none of the following three sentences say anything to the contrary or correct the impression the first sentence creates.  In fact, your final sentence implies that your desired solution is to make it easier for new players to find the "right" way in the first place.  Granted, your method is to level and equalize all methods...  But that still reinforces the notion embodied in the first sentence, that there's a "right way" (one standard all methods should be brought up to parity with).

[tidge]

You literally wrote three sentences, all of which were quoted. Your second sentence is a restatement of the fix. The third sentence implies that players (by ignorance or choice) are falling into traps (again, possibly by choice) that you don't want them to fall into.

 

I'm not assuming that you are the type of player who thinks other players are making mistakes with their power choices, attack chains, or slotting choices and want them to do better... however those could also be seen as "traps" for the uninitiated which require explicit guardrails to avoid. The OP solution should have been to give the SGmate several million Inf, because that is what would have eased the mind of the offended party.

[nzer]

21 minutes ago, Doc_Scorpion said:

But that still reinforces the notion embodied in the first sentence, that there's a "right way"

I'm not really interested in having this kind of philosophical debate. I'm suggesting players should be able to take advantage of all the merit sinks available to them without inadvertently throwing merits away in the process.

21 minutes ago, tidge said:

You literally wrote three sentences, all of which were quoted

Allow me to quote them again:

15 hours ago, nzer said:

The problem is that the proper way to use reward merits isn't something players will naturally discover or intuitively grasp, so many players end up spending them inefficiently and flushing lots of potential inf down the drain. The proposed solution is to allow merits to be sold for inf, which is both easy to direct players toward and simple for them to do.

 

It's really fairly straightforward, but IMO it would be better to adjust the costs of existing merit sinks so they're all roughly equal. If the problem is newbies falling into traps, the solution should be removing the traps.

The problem isn't that there are many different ways for people to spend their merits, it's that they all vary wildly in terms of efficiency. The solution to that isn't to remove or add merit sinks, it's to equalize the efficiency of the available sinks so that, for example, buying an ATO outright doesn't cost three times as many merits as buying boosters, selling them on the AH, then buying the ATO off the AH with the profits.

Edited February 27, 2020 by nzer

[Obus Form]

On 2/26/2020 at 9:51 AM, Yomo Kimyata said:

Since you can buy merits now for 1mm a pop, let’s see what else to use as a benchmark.  Devs have seeded rare salvage at 1mm.  Where can you sell rare salvage at a guaranteed rate?  5k.  That’s a big spread, but the fair market seems to split the difference.

 

Maybe they should make merits directly tradeable on the AH?  It’s an interesting thought experiment as to where the clearing rate would be.  

I am also of the camp: Let merits be traded on the AH.

 

It is just my experience though, that whatever can be traded on AH can/(should?) also be vendored, except odd/unique salvage.  As someone mentioned, rare salvage sells 5k to vendor and about 500k average AH price, and this price discrepancy between vendor and /AH is apparent across the entire game (and all video games/life examples with a /AH).

 

Instead of guaranteeing a somewhat-lower-but-still-trying-equalize method of income, just allow merits to be sold on the AH and vendored.  Then, when the SG mate asks what to do with merits, just say "/ah and sell it there" thus allowing a less-brainer (not no-brainer) of converting merits into inf.

 

At the end of the day, as per many posters, information is always available.  But there is no replacement for agency or curiosity.  The SG mate has to have the innate curiosity/desire/agency to ask "how can i maximize my merits/time?".  Whatever reason prevented him/her from asking before spending his/her merits.... sorry, that's called life (or video game) experience.

Edited February 27, 2020 by Obus Form
Genderized SG mate

[Yomo Kimyata]

2 minutes ago, nzer said:

 

Allow me to quote them again:

The problem isn't that there are many different ways for people to spend their merits, it's that they all vary wildly in terms of efficiency. The solution to that isn't to remove or add merit sinks, it's to equalize the efficiency of the available sinks so that, for example, buying an ATO outright doesn't cost three times as many merits as buying boosters, selling them on the AH, then buying the ATO off the AH with the profits.

I thought I was perfectly clear, but since you reiterated, so will I.

 

Who are you to decide how people spend their merits?  Efficiency in terms of inf (which will vary based on market value of converters, boosters, etc.)?  Efficiency in terms of time spent on the AH interface which you may not like?  Other?

 

Sure, it is more efficient in terms of inf to spend 100 merits on 300 converters, sell them for (maybe) 25mm after fees, buy an ATO for (maybe) 10mm.  That takes a number of steps, a certain period of time, a little bit of knowledge (and luck), and other people on the other side of the trade.  But who are you to decide if someone just wants to lock in their ATO for 100 merits if they don't want to use the AH and wait for a buy or a sale.? Are the devs to reset values for conversion if market rates on converters shift daily?

 

I continue to disagree, marginally less respectfully this time.  This is absolutely not a problem.  If you really think it is, then you should embark on an education campaign so that everyone who is not using what you think is the most efficient way knows what your opinion is.

[MunkiLord]

12 minutes ago, nzer said:

I'm not really interested in having this kind of philosophical debate. I'm suggesting players should be able to take advantage of all the merit sinks available to them without inadvertently throwing merits away in the process.

Allow me to quote them again:

The problem isn't that there are many different ways for people to spend their merits, it's that they all vary wildly in terms of efficiency. The solution to that isn't to remove or add merit sinks, it's to equalize the efficiency of the available sinks so that, for example, buying an ATO outright doesn't cost three times as many merits as buying boosters, selling them on the AH, then buying the ATO off the AH with the profits.

First, the intent of your suggestion is clear if people use context. Not sure why anyone is hung up the semantics of you using 'right way' in your comments. It's silly, you were clear.

 

That being said, I don't agree that this is really a problem. Some ways will always be more efficient, though I wouldn't be against a smaller price for merits I guess, but closer to 100k. It would give them more influence without doing much to the current converter market, which I think is pretty good as is. 

 

In the end, more influence in the system will mean higher prices to some extent, which has the potential of being a very bad thing depending on how it plays out. It would definitely lead to many of us having more, though I'm not sure that really matters in the end.

[nzer]

15 minutes ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

I thought I was perfectly clear, but since you reiterated, so will I.

You were, and that's my fault for reading too quickly; I edited my comment to better respond to yours, but not in time apparently.

 

17 minutes ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

I continue to disagree, marginally less respectfully this time.

I too will be marginally less respectful: I don't find "people should be allowed to waste merits if they want to" to be a compelling argument in the slightest, and I don't think the people you're arguing on behalf of would appreciate such an argument if they knew you were making it for them. The idea that someone would argue against "people should be able to spend merits however they want without inadvertently throwing them away" is, to me, completely absurd.

[Obus Form]

21 minutes ago, nzer said:

I'm not really interested in having this kind of philosophical debate. I'm suggesting players should be able to take advantage of all the merit sinks available to them without inadvertently throwing merits away in the process.

 

Allow me to quote them again:

The problem isn't that there are many different ways for people to spend their merits, it's that they all vary wildly in terms of efficiency. The solution to that isn't to remove or add merit sinks, it's to equalize the efficiency of the available sinks so that, for example, buying an ATO outright doesn't cost three times as many merits as buying boosters, selling them on the AH, then buying the ATO off the AH with the profits.

@nzerI respect you man, but the way you say it is... odd.  And it ends being a philosophical idea because the solution to your problem is...based on the idea that bad (whatever you define "bad" as) merit sinks should be removed.

 

If I took your entire sentence and replaced "buying ATOs" or "merit sinks" it with the word "groceries", it is my hope that you will see how I understand your statements.  In real life, we also make choices about buying groceries or eating already-made food (pay for convenience), but regardless of how bad (however I define the word "bad") the inefficient use of money that it is to eat food at restaurants, people do it anyway.  Personally, despite monetary inefficiency, I eat at restaurants because I know that my gf likes it and it will increase my chance of mixing my Staff Mastery with her Dark Armor.

 

Here goes

The problem isn't that there are many different ways for people to spend their money [on food], it's that [food choices] all vary wildly in terms of efficiency. The solution to that isn't to remove or add [different ways of buying food], it's to equalize the efficiency of the available [food choices] so that, for example, buying a [Hambuger of McDonald origin] outright doesn't cost three times as [much money] as buying [groceries from the grocery store], [cooking groceries at home], then [having enough burger and patties left over to make 10 McDonald hambugers].

 

 

[Obus Form]

8 minutes ago, nzer said:

The idea that someone would argue against "people should be able to spend merits however they want without inadvertently throwing them away" is, to me, completely absurd.

But, people CAN because the baddest way of spending your merits is buying your IO or recipe, then deleting it.  Likely nobody would do that.  But really, it's their choice.  Separately, and due to my laziness + having enough inf in the game, that I started deleting IOs and purple recipes.

 

Life's got choices.  Always.

 

Limiting a "bad" choice via government-controlled sanctions is one way to eliminate 1 very bad choice... but if that was the case...then what prevents the next worst "bad" choice to be also require government elimination?  I think the only true answer for the SG mate of the OP is themselves having a spark of curiosity + gusto to actually better their in-game financial situation.

[nzer]

9 minutes ago, Obus Form said:

And it ends being a philosophical idea because the solution to your problem is...based on the idea that bad (whatever you define "bad" as) merit sinks should be removed.

But that's not what it's based on... I really don't mean to be rude, but I just explained that; I'm saying we shouldn't be tackling the problem of varying efficiency by adding or removing merit sinks, we should be tackling it by equalizing the existing merit sinks so that players aren't punished for picking the less efficient ones.

 

To put it more directly, it shouldn't be significantly more efficient to convert merits to boosters, sell them on the AH, then buy the ATO on the AH than it is to buy the ATO outright. A bit more efficient perhaps, because buying them outright is faster, but not three times as efficient.

 

The problem isn't that players are "doing it wrong," it's that a reasonable looking way to spend merits is actually a trap.

[Obus Form]

Just now, nzer said:

The problem isn't that players are "doing it wrong," it's that a reasonable looking way to spend merits is actually a trap.

It;'s not a trap. 

 

There's a choice.  /AH and asking /help being the biggest ones.  Even a quick google search for COH and money making gives results.

[tidge]

I'm reminded of the threads in which some players express disgust about using the AH at all. Some folks are just going to do what they want.

[nzer]

Just now, Obus Form said:

It;'s not a trap. 

 

There's a choice.  /AH and asking /help being the biggest ones.  Even a quick google search for COH and money making gives results.

What's the choice? To spend three times as much to get the ATO now rather than half an hour from now? Do you think most of the people buying ATOs with merits understand that's what they're doing? Because I'd bet they actually just don't know any better, in which case it's not a choice at all, they're inadvertently wasting merits because they don't know any better. That's a trap, by definition.

[Obus Form]

1 minute ago, nzer said:

What's the choice? To spend three times as much to get the ATO now rather than half an hour from now? Do you think most of the people buying ATOs with merits understand that's what they're doing? Because I'd bet they actually just don't know any better, in which case it's not a choice at all, they're inadvertently wasting merits because they don't know any better. That's a trap, by definition.

"Because they don't know better"  <--- The OP's SG mate needs to have the agency/desire to learn the better ways of COH inf generation.  Nothing replaces the desire to learn.

 

Not a single adult in this world would say that buying 3 meals a day at McDonalds is a good way to efficiently get food/nutrition into your body.  We can all use grocery stores, and with a little practice/knowledge/youtube, learn to cook for ourselves.  And with the same amount of money spent at McDonalds, we could get 10x as much food, and better nutritional value from our food than McDonald. 

 

But nobody calls McDonald's a "trap".  If the OP's SG mate has the time to play COH, i'm sure they could also google COH and inf generating.  Nothing stops them.  Maybe they don't know better?  And you're correct that they don't know better.  Then ask.  If you don't ask, you don't get because you don't know.

 

This ends up being philosophical.