The Broken Brutes Effect (please buff them)

[Galaxy Brain]

1 hour ago, VileTerror said:

When you posted "Birderlands 2.5," I got all excited at the prospect of someone having mod'd bird heads on to every character in the game.

You have disappointed me, Galax.

[Galaxy Brain]

1 hour ago, Grouchybeast said:

A: The game is too easy, we need a hard mode or harder content.

B: Okay, but meanwhile there are already lots of ways players can choose to challenge themselves.  Have you considered [SO only/Ouro with buffed enemies/AE challenge missions/etc]?

A: No, I can't find enough people who want to play like this to make up even one static team.

I do think part of it is the reward structure in place to do this, on top of the (ironic) difficulty of setting it up.

 

You have to go well out of your way to set up the optional difficulty settings when starting a TF, Ouro Arc, etc, or to manually "nerf" your character by only using certain enhancements or whatnot. When you do this (outside Ouro iirc, but that requires a lot of separate unlocking and travel to get there outside the normal game) you do not get any more bang for your proverbial buck. This reflects another popular poll option of balancing the encounter rewards. If you look at it objectively, Council are pushovers compared to Carnies but you get the same Rewards/Time for dealing with both to make Council the go-to for efficiency. If Carnies gave more Inf/XP to fight than Council, or more complex enemies / missions in AE similarly gave more reward than a farm map than it may shift the perspective we have against such content in general and encourage tackling the existing tuff-stuff.

 

Adding to a general buff to the existing hard content rewards (Merits, XP, Drops, etc), you could always apply the same logic to existing advanced TF / Ouro settings besides badges. For example on a TF, you get +10 merits per option selected or even a multiplier for time remaining if you try to do a time limit + other settings. 

 

Combine this with these options also tossing in some new enemy types that mix up encounters to not just be a steamroll and it could be something fun and dynamic that encourages all sorts of team combos and strategies besides just "throw DPS / AoE at it".

 

 

[VileTerror]

I'm also frequently reminded of https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6JgKQFeBxs during these threads.

[Itikar]

On 2/23/2020 at 1:22 PM, AerialAssault said:

Does anyone else think it's funny that it's always Brute mains complaining that the game is too easy and not, for example, Force Field/Psionic Blast Defenders?

Well I had a relatively easy time through Praetoria with a FF/energy blast defender, so... 😛

 

Joking aside I believe characters who find +4/x8 too easy, especially on team, should probably explore other venues to find increased difficulty, Ouroboros does offer quite a few interesting options in that regard. What I feel is missing, actually, is a real reward for those added difficulties, right now from my understanding you only get a badge the first time you do that.

[RCU7115]

18 hours ago, biostem said:

The question is how to make new content challenging without just giving enemies more HP and higher damage numbers.  Can the AI handle more complex power allotments?  Can enemies use tactics? 

Give them stronger debuffs to use on us ???

[Galaxy Brain]

5 minutes ago, RCU7115 said:

Give them stronger debuffs to use on us ???

What could be done is change the way we encounter enemies. It's not difficult to have to spam more inspirations to bot get hit/heal/deal more damage/hit more, what is difficult is choosing targets in a mob and how to coordinate strategy going into the fight. More decisions = more room for error = more oh crap situations.

 

 

[MunkiLord]

I like the oh crap situations, the chaos is fun. Changes things up. 

[Grouchybeast]

8 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

If you look at it objectively, Council are pushovers compared to Carnies but you get the same Rewards/Time for dealing with both to make Council the go-to for efficiency. If Carnies gave more Inf/XP to fight than Council, or more complex enemies / missions in AE similarly gave more reward than a farm map than it may shift the perspective we have against such content in general and encourage tackling the existing tuff-stuff.

 

Adding to a general buff to the existing hard content rewards (Merits, XP, Drops, etc), you could always apply the same logic to existing advanced TF / Ouro settings besides badges. For example on a TF, you get +10 merits per option selected or even a multiplier for time remaining if you try to do a time limit + other settings. 

I feel like the results of that would be fairly predictable, though, which is instead of running AE Fire Farms/PI papers/Tinpex, people will run New Most Efficient AE Farm/New Most Efficient Repeatable Normal Content/New Most Efficient Incarnate Trial, and we'll be back exactly where we are, only with higher rewards across the board.

 

What does work pretty well right now, actually, are the weekly SF targets.  I wonder if something could be done along those lines to encourage people to run a wider variety of content?

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

23 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

I do think part of it is the reward structure in place to do this, on top of the (ironic) difficulty of setting it up.

 

You have to go well out of your way to set up the optional difficulty settings when starting a TF, Ouro Arc, etc, or to manually "nerf" your character by only using certain enhancements or whatnot. When you do this (outside Ouro iirc, but that requires a lot of separate unlocking and travel to get there outside the normal game) you do not get any more bang for your proverbial buck. This reflects another popular poll option of balancing the encounter rewards. If you look at it objectively, Council are pushovers compared to Carnies but you get the same Rewards/Time for dealing with both to make Council the go-to for efficiency. If Carnies gave more Inf/XP to fight than Council, or more complex enemies / missions in AE similarly gave more reward than a farm map than it may shift the perspective we have against such content in general and encourage tackling the existing tuff-stuff.

 

Adding to a general buff to the existing hard content rewards (Merits, XP, Drops, etc), you could always apply the same logic to existing advanced TF / Ouro settings besides badges. For example on a TF, you get +10 merits per option selected or even a multiplier for time remaining if you try to do a time limit + other settings. 

 

Combine this with these options also tossing in some new enemy types that mix up encounters to not just be a steamroll and it could be something fun and dynamic that encourages all sorts of team combos and strategies besides just "throw DPS / AoE at it".

 

 

The thing is, the HC team has made it clear they want to see merits more about the time investment aspect. So unless the teams are taking meaningfully longer to complete TFs under the challenge settings, asking for more rewards is throwing off the merit per minute ratio that among other things was used to justify the 30-1 ratio change to the vanguard merit conversion. Which has had a very real effect on reducing interest in MSRs at least on everlasting from what Ive seen.

 

The idea of risk vs reward sounds logical but has actually been being left by the way side even in PnP RPGs for years. The most popular variajnt rule found in an issue of dragon mag that my pbp group adopted years ago was rather then xp being awarded for encounters, leveling is based on the amount of time played at a session. Either 4 two hour sessions, 2 four hour sessions, or 1 eight hour session equals a level up. This was so roundly favored by those Ive PnPed with player and GM alike that when the odd person suggest the old days of individual xp awards, bonus xp for individual actions etc, they get very soundly told to shut up or find a new table top group.

 

In a way we see that system very much in CoH were its time in content that determined the merit rewards for arcs and TFs more then anything else. With those TFs able to be reliably speed run usually having some of the worst merit rewards and making them less popular. Same with certain story arcs. Some arcs are favored because of how easy they are to stealth through and some avoided because a glowie hunt or kill all in a nasty map theme like orengeba can take tons of time to clear.

 

Humans gonna human, and being human is all about using our brain to reduce work loads. Why did we dig wells? So we didnt have to keep walking down to the rivers for water.

[Steampunkette]

Ultimately any increase to the game's difficulty is going to result in one of a few scenarios:

 

1) Game is made harder through increased numbers, rewards are greater, people seek the most effective method of destroying content, 6 months later we need a new difficulty curve.

 

2) Game is made harder through increased numbers. People spend inf on Inspirations, gain greater rewards, 6 months later complain that every fight relies on inspirations and doesn't grant better rewards. Or just learn the new more effective methods and complain about the difficulty curve.

 

3) Game is made harder through new enemy abilities. Players learn to recognize which enemies have those abilities, spike them into the floor in the alpha strike, and the game is exactly 0% harder than before it just takes an extra 1.5 seconds to choose target priority.

 

4) Game is made harder through more complex and effective AI and the reduction or elimination of Taunt mechanics: People complain about the difficulty curve being a brick wall as the defenders and controllers are alpha striked into oblivion in every fight and the rest of the team is slowly whittled down.

 

There are no good options, here.

[Infinitum]

2 hours ago, Steampunkette said:

Ultimately any increase to the game's difficulty is going to result in one of a few scenarios:

 

1) Game is made harder through increased numbers, rewards are greater, people seek the most effective method of destroying content, 6 months later we need a new difficulty curve.

 

2) Game is made harder through increased numbers. People spend inf on Inspirations, gain greater rewards, 6 months later complain that every fight relies on inspirations and doesn't grant better rewards. Or just learn the new more effective methods and complain about the difficulty curve.

 

3) Game is made harder through new enemy abilities. Players learn to recognize which enemies have those abilities, spike them into the floor in the alpha strike, and the game is exactly 0% harder than before it just takes an extra 1.5 seconds to choose target priority.

 

4) Game is made harder through more complex and effective AI and the reduction or elimination of Taunt mechanics: People complain about the difficulty curve being a brick wall as the defenders and controllers are alpha striked into oblivion in every fight and the rest of the team is slowly whittled down.

 

There are no good options, here.

#3. I think this would be the most effective.

 

Create an EB option in diff settings where boss is also, and create a new EB class for every spawn that has abilities like battle maiden in apex or duray in Sutter.

 

This would be an option not forced, new badges and rewards could be linked to this setting.

 

It would extend any fight because you would then be forced to be dynamic and move around creating the chaos factor potentially with any mob.  And being that it's an EB it won't go down fast but won't be so hard it makes the content unplayable either.

 

Best thing is it could be implemented game wide and selectable for those that want it, or don't want it.

 

It would instantly revamp the entire game from level 1 to incarnate for those looking for that, or leave it alone for those that aren't.

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

6 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

#3. I think this would be the most effective.

 

Create an EB option in diff settings where boss is also, and create a new EB class for every spawn that has abilities like battle maiden in apex or duray in Sutter.

 

This would be an option not forced, new badges and rewards could be linked to this setting.

 

It would extend any fight because you would then be forced to be dynamic and move around creating the chaos factor potentially with any mob.  And being that it's an EB it won't go down fast but won't be so hard it makes the content unplayable either.

 

Best thing is it could be implemented game wide and selectable for those that want it, or don't want it.

 

It would instantly revamp the entire game from level 1 to incarnate for those looking for that, or leave it alone for those that aren't.

Uhm unless the EB is specifically tanky to one of my stalkers dmg types, my experience with EBs on my stalkers is 4 hits to kill on avg. So uhm I dont think in general an EB will add much dif for most teams. And while the boss mechanic you suggest is cool. Ive seen duray at least so quickly killed it never got to be used. Battle Maiden is incarnate class after all so she does tend to take a good beating.

[RCU7115]

21 hours ago, MunkiLord said:

I like the oh crap situations, the chaos is fun. Changes things up. 

Give the AV's an ability that has a chance to turn off all of our set bonuses that last 10-30 seconds that's completely random. Give it a radius of 250 ft. Make it so all the baddies get all the set bonuses that put into them for that period. I just tossing out silly ideas, 😀 lol.

[RCU7115]

2 hours ago, Steampunkette said:

Ultimately any increase to the game's difficulty is going to result in one of a few scenarios:

 

1) Game is made harder through increased numbers, rewards are greater, people seek the most effective method of destroying content, 6 months later we need a new difficulty curve.

 

2) Game is made harder through increased numbers. People spend inf on Inspirations, gain greater rewards, 6 months later complain that every fight relies on inspirations and doesn't grant better rewards. Or just learn the new more effective methods and complain about the difficulty curve.

 

3) Game is made harder through new enemy abilities. Players learn to recognize which enemies have those abilities, spike them into the floor in the alpha strike, and the game is exactly 0% harder than before it just takes an extra 1.5 seconds to choose target priority.

 

4) Game is made harder through more complex and effective AI and the reduction or elimination of Taunt mechanics: People complain about the difficulty curve being a brick wall as the defenders and controllers are alpha striked into oblivion in every fight and the rest of the team is slowly whittled down.

 

There are no good options, here.

Exactly.

[Infinitum]

23 minutes ago, Bentley Berkeley said:

Uhm unless the EB is specifically tanky to one of my stalkers dmg types, my experience with EBs on my stalkers is 4 hits to kill on avg. So uhm I dont think in general an EB will add much dif for most teams. And while the boss mechanic you suggest is cool. Ive seen duray at least so quickly killed it never got to be used. Battle Maiden is incarnate class after all so she does tend to take a good beating.

Thats what im talking about, creating a tanky EB resistant to all damage, or dodgy to all damage.  That is the prerequisite - it would be like the seargeant of the mob, the hard target.  Under these circumstances you would need more than 4 hits to take it out - not quite to AV levels but somewhere in between AV and EB now.

 

You will also have bosses, lieutenants, and minions in the same spawn to contend with.  So it would at least require more strategy even for a polished team to dispatch quickly.

 

No 2 spawns would be identical, so steam rolling would be as steamy under those circumstances.

[Steampunkette]

3 hours ago, Infinitum said:

Thats what im talking about, creating a tanky EB resistant to all damage, or dodgy to all damage.  That is the prerequisite - it would be like the seargeant of the mob, the hard target.  Under these circumstances you would need more than 4 hits to take it out - not quite to AV levels but somewhere in between AV and EB now.

 

You will also have bosses, lieutenants, and minions in the same spawn to contend with.  So it would at least require more strategy even for a polished team to dispatch quickly.

 

No 2 spawns would be identical, so steam rolling would be as steamy under those circumstances.

Nuke the minions with AoE. Lieutenants quickly follow. Bosses and EB are all that's left standing after 8-12 seconds. Bosses die over the next 20. EB falls apart shortly thereafter.

 

You're not increasing the difficulty. You're just making it take longer.

 

Increasing the difficulty means bringing the TTK and TTD clocks into closer precision, making it a tough fight to win while hanging on the ragged edge of victory to avoid tumbling into defeat.

 

"Add an EB" won't accomplish that any more than adding another 2,000 HP to Dr. Vahzilok will make him a tougher fight.

 

It just takes longer to kill him.

[Infinitum]

2 hours ago, Steampunkette said:

Nuke the minions with AoE. Lieutenants quickly follow. Bosses and EB are all that's left standing after 8-12 seconds. Bosses die over the next 20. EB falls apart shortly thereafter.

 

You're not increasing the difficulty. You're just making it take longer.

 

Increasing the difficulty means bringing the TTK and TTD clocks into closer precision, making it a tough fight to win while hanging on the ragged edge of victory to avoid tumbling into defeat.

 

"Add an EB" won't accomplish that any more than adding another 2,000 HP to Dr. Vahzilok will make him a tougher fight.

 

It just takes longer to kill him.

Again... It's not just adding an EB, it's adding a hardened EB with an unresistable pseudo pet damage aoe.

 

And No because if all you focus on is everything but the EB it will rain death down on your team, and with it being unresistable damage, it will take you out.

 

Try your approach on the apex task forces, map clear and see how many team wipes you get.

 

It's not just making it take longer, it's removing face rolling in front of the hard target or mob smash steam rolling.

 

Sure a polished team could still dispatch it with ease but it won't be using current smash and go tactics everyone in here that's doing the complaining about it.

 

If anything this type of content would reinstate a greater value for ranged, buffers and debuffers.

 

Isn't that what we are looking for here?

 

Or are we just hell bent on redesigning the game from the ground up so the grindy grind returns?

[Haijinx]

List all the things about various groups people hate ...

 

Sprinkle new enemy types with those abilities into the too easy groups.

 

For examples ..    

 

Make a quasi sapper council LT. 

 

Give some of the Skuls vengeance

 

Add a high mag, low duration AOE stun to the Freakshow rez.   

 

Drastically reduce the cast and interrupt time on the exploding Vahz.   

 

 

 

 

 

[Troo]

@Haijinx fyi Ima gonna 'borrow' that for another thread.

[Megajoule]

Disingenuous clickbait title for suggestion that's bad however many times it's made.

I want my 2 minutes back.

[GM Tock]

Okay, take a deep breath.

 

Please keep discussions on topic and refrain from personal attacks.  

 

Cool?  Carry on.