Weekly discussion 42: Scrappers!

[Redlynne]

4 hours ago, Heraclea said:

Maybe have the scrapper's critical chance be shareable by teammates within 20' of the scrapper.   Give them a small but stacking chance for the other player's attacks to do critical damage.

That would require rewriting EVERY PLAYER POWER IN THE GAME in order to enable that.

Um ... no ...?

1 hour ago, Saikochoro said:

I honestly wish they would get rid of confront on scrappers.

Funny you should say that, because while I've been reading the responses in this thread I've been wondering if a port of Spring Attack (minus the Knock effect), but done as a Single Target "attack" that teleports you to your $Target while still retaining all of the current Scrapper Taunt power effects would be a worthwhile upgrade.  Basically convert the power into a Taunt+Gap Closer, so as to properly live up to the power name ... CONFRONT ...

 

         

 

The "legacy" Taunt powers were all about making Them Come To You.

Why not reconfigure the "Confront" powers (that also Taunt) for Scrappers be all about making You Go To Them ... in the blink of an eye ... (so to speak) and grab ALL of their attention onto yourself.

 

If nothing else, it would give Scrappers a UNIQUE Gap Closer (via teleport to $Target) power that they've never had before and would set them apart from other Archetypes.

And it would also give Scrappers a rather "signature" way of dealing with Runners ...

 

Basic idea being that if you have the Scrapper Confront power (now properly named?) ... ANYTHING within 70ft (standard Confront power range) of you CAN BE within melee range of you VERY QUICKLY(!!).

 

After that it's just a matter of swapping out the emote animation for the power (to drop the "Ah ha!" Taunt emote) so it looks more like a "fast jump" to close range (when it's game mechanically speaking a teleport to $Target) and call it a day.

[Call Me Awesome]

5 minutes ago, Redlynne said:

Funny you should say that, because while I've been reading the responses in this thread I've been wondering if a port of Spring Attack (minus the Knock effect), but done as a Single Target "attack" that teleports you to your $Target while still retaining all of the current Scrapper Taunt power effects would be a worthwhile upgrade.  Basically convert the power into a Taunt+Gap Closer, so as to properly live up to the power name ... CONFRONT ...

 

The "legacy" Taunt powers were all about making Them Come To You.

Why not reconfigure the "Confront" powers (that also Taunt) for Scrappers be all about making You Go To Them ... in the blink of an eye ... (so to speak) and grab ALL of their attention onto yourself.

 

If nothing else, it would give Scrappers a UNIQUE Gap Closer (via teleport to $Target) power that they've never had before and would set them apart from other Archetypes.

And it would also give Scrappers a rather "signature" way of dealing with Runners ...

You know, I hadn't though of this, but it makes sense.  While I don't have much if any experience in other MMO's I have heard of this kind of thing, a "wild charge" at a mob to instantly get into melee range.  It would still be a limited use power unless it was changed to incorporate damage... and then the questions of "ST vs AOE" and "How much should it do" come into play.

 

The devil is in the details but this idea has merit IMO.

[Saikochoro]

12 minutes ago, Redlynne said:

That would require rewriting EVERY PLAYER POWER IN THE GAME in order to enable that.

Um ... no ...?

Funny you should say that, because while I've been reading the responses in this thread I've been wondering if a port of Spring Attack (minus the Knock effect), but done as a Single Target "attack" that teleports you to your $Target while still retaining all of the current Scrapper Taunt power effects would be a worthwhile upgrade.  Basically convert the power into a Taunt+Gap Closer, so as to properly live up to the power name ... CONFRONT ...

 

         

 

The "legacy" Taunt powers were all about making Them Come To You.

Why not reconfigure the "Confront" powers (that also Taunt) for Scrappers be all about making You Go To Them ... in the blink of an eye ... (so to speak) and grab ALL of their attention onto yourself.

 

If nothing else, it would give Scrappers a UNIQUE Gap Closer (via teleport to $Target) power that they've never had before and would set them apart from other Archetypes.

And it would also give Scrappers a rather "signature" way of dealing with Runners ...

 

Basic idea being that if you have the Scrapper Confront power (now properly named?) ... ANYTHING within 70ft (standard Confront power range) of you CAN BE within melee range of you VERY QUICKLY(!!).

 

After that it's just a matter of swapping out the emote animation for the power (to drop the "Ah ha!" Taunt emote) so it looks more like a "fast jump" to close range (when it's game mechanically speaking a teleport to $Target) and call it a day.

I would love this. Hopefully it would deal decent damage. Would be a lot of fun.  Would fit well with scrapper lock. 

[Cutter]

19 minutes ago, Redlynne said:

Basic idea being that if you have the Scrapper Confront power (now properly named?) ... ANYTHING within 70ft (standard Confront power range) of you CAN BE within melee range of you VERY QUICKLY(!!).

 

After that it's just a matter of swapping out the emote animation for the power (to drop the "Ah ha!" Taunt emote) so it looks more like a "fast jump" to close range (when it's game mechanically speaking a teleport to $Target) and call it a day.

Great idea. Swap for the Burst of Speed animation?

[Redlynne]

24 minutes ago, Saikochoro said:

I would love this. Hopefully it would deal decent damage. Would be a lot of fun.  Would fit well with scrapper lock. 

I was thinking in terms of keeping (the updated) Confront as being a zero damage Teleport+Taunt.

What power you use NEXT however would DEFINITELY do damage ... 😎

[Call Me Awesome]

2 minutes ago, Redlynne said:

I was thinking in terms of keeping (the updated) Confront as being a zero damage Teleport+Taunt.

What power you use NEXT however would DEFINITELY do damage ... 😎

Have it incorporate a 5 second build up maybe?  You just appeared in Joe Council's face so surprise should give you a damage bonus.  Or maybe just a 100% chance for a critical?

[warlyx]

i wouldnt mind a buff to underused specs

 

Martial arts an extra aoe wont hurt

 

kin dire changes needed T9 the most

 

Energy : where to start....

 

for team support , what if everytime the scrapped crit the enemy gets -res even stack to 5 or something,  or party gets a buff that stacks? 

 

what if confront had a teleport foe ? those runners wont escape 😄 

Edited March 17, 2020 by warlyx

[Redlynne]

3 minutes ago, Call Me Awesome said:

Have it incorporate a 5 second build up maybe?  You just appeared in Joe Council's face so surprise should give you a damage bonus.  Or maybe just a 100% chance for a critical?

Too powerful (as you've described).

I wouldn't be averse to doing something akin to the Eagle's Claw buff to critical chance of "next attack" if queued up before Confront finishes animating ... but NO WAY on a 5s buff.  Confront powers have a pretty uniform 3s recharge time, and I am in NO WAY advising to mess with that.

[Saikochoro]

24 minutes ago, Redlynne said:

I was thinking in terms of keeping (the updated) Confront as being a zero damage Teleport+Taunt.

What power you use NEXT however would DEFINITELY do damage ... 😎

What if it dealt zero damage but gave the next attack a 100% crit chance?

[Redlynne]

Just now, Saikochoro said:

What if it dealt zero damage but gave the next attack a 100% crit chance?

100% crit chance is probably too much.

0% added crit chance would almost certainly be too little ... and with the Scrapper ATOs in play, I'm honestly thinking that something in the +15% range might be appropriate so as to not oversaturate the crit chance of the attack following Confront.  I don't have a problem with getting "near" 100% (although perceptions of "nearness" will no doubt vary) but in order to keep game balance within reason (for Scrappers! BURN THE HERETIC!!) I'm thinking it would be WISE to allow the crit chance to go no higher than 90% (so basically proc cap chance) such that it isn't a *perfectly reliable* way to score a critical hit.  Reason being is that you don't want to go overboard and make Confront TOO GOOD such that only an absolute derp ID10T would drop it.

[Call Me Awesome]

29 minutes ago, Redlynne said:

Too powerful (as you've described).

I wouldn't be averse to doing something akin to the Eagle's Claw buff to critical chance of "next attack" if queued up before Confront finishes animating ... but NO WAY on a 5s buff.  Confront powers have a pretty uniform 3s recharge time, and I am in NO WAY advising to mess with that.

Ah, that would end up giving you a perma-build up wouldn't it?  I hadn't considered the recharge of the power.  Hmm, I do think the surprise of suddenly appearing in the mob's face should lead to some benefit; maybe a -res?  Nowhere near the added damage of Build Up but enough to make the power worthwhile... the exact numbers would need a fair amount of consideration and testing.

 

As it sits just the TP to target and taunt likely isn't enough for most to pick it up so it needs something more, but you're right my original thought is too much.  I do like the concept.

[Dreamboat]

7 hours ago, warlyx said:

Martial arts an extra aoe wont hurt

Pleasepleaseplease

[siolfir]

With regards to the suggestion to turn Confront into a TP-to-Foe (which was in one of the buff Confront threads), I am assuming that the recharge would be increased as part of the change, and the amount it increases could determine any additional effects. As for numbers for a "bonus critical chance" make it +25%; this means if you have both Scrapper ATO procs (+60%) in attacks with the best chance to critical (15%) you'll hit 100% with an 85% chance for other attacks against lieutenants and higher class mobs; without the ATO procs it's 35-45% depending on the follow-up attack, which is higher than the "Stalker with a full team all within range" critical rate (31%). I'd put it at a 20 sec base recharge (one-third that of Placate), which is still shorter than the base Taunt duration against even cons, and would give you a reason to want it to recharge faster either through global recharge or slotting.

Edited March 17, 2020 by siolfir
typos

[Demented]

My main, Midnight Blues was my first to get to 50 when this game was first out. I wanted to make an homage to Wolverine, so he's a Claws/Regen. I always loved the sound of the claws, and Eviscerate is one of my favorites. I'm currently leveling up Midnight Blues again, and enjoying every minute of it!

[Darthwxman]

In old CoH Scrappers were my favorite. They were the ultimate solo toon. The tankers low damage output made playing a Tanker too sloooow unless you were playing with a group. Brutes and Stalkers didn't exist yet, and then for a long time after they did exist, they were purely on the villain side. Now Brutes and Stalkers can be on either side and we even have Sentinels... Brutes seem to have better damage output then Scrappers once their fury gets going, and their resistance caps are higher... Stalkers have the same resistance caps, and seem to be able to crit more reliably... plus they have stealth and better AOE defense than Scrappers. Sentinels have essentially the same defensive capabilities as the Scrapper, but can do their damage at range... Hard to see where the scrapper fits in.  

Edited March 17, 2020 by Darthwxman

[Itikar]

One of the salient differences between scrapper and stalker versions of powersets, with a few exceptions related to gimmicks, is that Scrappers tend to be better equipped with AoE dealing powers. Given the insistence on AoE of a relevant portion of the playerbase, a viable way to make Scrappers more relevant could be, in my opinion, to increase their ability to deal damage in comparison to Stalkers and Brutes. In a way, making them similar or closer to Tankers for what pertains AoE (range and maybe caps?).

 

This way Scrappers could become more appealing for the purpose of AoE melee damage, compared to Stalkers which are their sister Archetype. This is an idea I picked up on Discord during a discussion that analyzed the opposition Stalker vs Scrapper.

[Darthwxman]

16 hours ago, Call Me Awesome said:

What comes immediately to mind is the current state of Regeneration; while it's far from unplayable it is one of the poorest performing sets. 

Regeneration to me, is eclipsed by the Willpower set which has similar sustainable regeneration and MUCH better DR and def then regen does... sure when instant healing is running regeneration has more regeneration then willpower set does, but you cant keep it up all the time, so regen as a whole just seems lackluster by comparison. 

[InvaderStych]

12 hours ago, Redlynne said:

<<snip>>

 

Funny you should say that, because while I've been reading the responses in this thread I've been wondering if a port of Spring Attack (minus the Knock effect), but done as a Single Target "attack" that teleports you to your $Target while still retaining all of the current Scrapper Taunt power effects would be a worthwhile upgrade.  Basically convert the power into a Taunt+Gap Closer, so as to properly live up to the power name ... CONFRONT ...

 

<<snip>>

 

This.  So Much This.  All Day, Every Day.  Fits the AT theme, and there's inherent risk in porting yourself into a mob that adds a bit of balance to the power as well.  The similar power from /SD was one of my very favorite things (granted that was on a Brute back on Live) to do.

 

If there is going to be any change to Scrappers overall, it needs to be this. Stat.

[warlyx]

1 hour ago, Itikar said:

One of the salient differences between scrapper and stalker versions of powersets, with a few exceptions related to gimmicks, is that Scrappers tend to be better equipped with AoE dealing powers. Given the insistence on AoE of a relevant portion of the playerbase, a viable way to make Scrappers more relevant could be, in my opinion, to increase their ability to deal damage in comparison to Stalkers and Brutes. In a way, making them similar or closer to Tankers for what pertains AoE (range and maybe caps?).

 

This way Scrappers could become more appealing for the purpose of AoE melee damage, compared to Stalkers which are their sister Archetype. This is an idea I picked up on Discord during a discussion that analyzed the opposition Stalker vs Scrapper.

if anything scrappers need something to spice up the AT and mooooooar dmg isnt the answer imho the AT already brings that (based on powersets ofc a martial arts lack aoe , a elec haves tons ) ......., Stalkers bring a way to kill priority targets faster , brutes bring more tankiness.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 17, 2020 by warlyx

[Itikar]

Just now, warlyx said:

if anything scrappers need something to spice up the AT and mooooooar dmg isnt the answer imho the AT already brings that , Stalkers bring a way to kill priority targets faster , brutes bring more tankiness.

 

Scrappers need "something" what? dunno 

 

I did not so much suggest more damage per se, but more AoE functionality. Right now from a sheer mechanical perspective there are few reasons to go for a Scrapper over a Stalker when they have access to the same AoE, like on a savage/invulnerability or a street justice/energy combo. Improving Scrapper AoE functionality compared to Stalkers seems reasonable, especially given that Scrappers, unlike Stalkers, do not have control on their criticals.

[venetiasilver]

I'd Say Scrappers need a Debuff instead of a Taunt.

Take for instance.
Claws Primary, Rending Claw, 20 Ft. Range 1 Minute CD. 
Utilizing Your Nimble Nature you rend the targets Resistance and Recharge Time by 15% for 20 Seconds

 

Or
Broad Sword Primary, Rending Sword
Utilizing Expert Swordsmanship, you Disarm the Enemy reducing Damage by 20% for 20 Seconds

[warlyx]

8 minutes ago, Itikar said:

I did not so much suggest more damage per se, but more AoE functionality. Right now from a sheer mechanical perspective there are few reasons to go for a Scrapper over a Stalker when they have access to the same AoE, like on a savage/invulnerability or a street justice/energy combo. Improving Scrapper AoE functionality compared to Stalkers seems reasonable, especially given that Scrappers, unlike Stalkers, do not have control on their criticals.

ahh yeah ,AS fixes some specs for stalkers , but for others the specs are way worse than scrappers versions , plus stalkers are kinda forced to play those in order to feel usefull in 90% of the game , no1 likes to be a ST specialist in a game like COH (maybe soloers and even that...) ,where u fight tons of enemies over and over , and if decide to play that ,it sucks being forced to always focus at min LTs in order to press at least a button....before everthing is dead. 

 

scrappers dont need more dmg nor tankiness is what i mean , they already at the "Cap" of this , so where we go from here ? support that makes sense for a AT that melees , maybe a massive debuff on a long cd for bosses or a way to make the team better , something so the team say grab the scrapper instead of another brute/stalker/blaster...

 

 

 

Edited March 17, 2020 by warlyx

[Dz131]

They seem to have nothing unique going for them, though I guess that's expected from a AT that hasn't changed since release.  Very bland and vanilla.  

We have brutes now that serve better as a middle of the pack between tanks and dps.  At one point Scrappers were the king of solo dps.  Now with Stalker who stole the crit mechanic and use it much better + better single dps with fixed ass strike and STJ, I don't see where scrappers fit in.

Edited March 17, 2020 by Dz131

[beardedbrent89]

15 hours ago, Saikochoro said:

I honestly wish they would get rid of confront on scrappers. If I wanted to taunt I’d play a brute or tanker. Kind of wish they would just turn it into another AoE attack across the board. Or perhaps just some other more useful utility power instead (recovery tool, heal, debuff, or even a control power).

Yes,changing confront into something else would be awesome. And As far as crit chances..i think it would be cool to make it work like stalker sets. Instead of assassins strike glowing, have (for example) the t3,t7-t9 powers glow for a auto crit after 3 successful attacks. Also i think every t9 should have +crit chance like headsplitter or dragonfly etc.

Edited March 17, 2020 by beardedbrent89

[Dz131]

27 minutes ago, warlyx said:

ahh yeah ,AS fixes some specs for stalkers , but for others the specs are way worse than scrappers versions , plus stalkers are kinda forced to play those in order to feel usefull in 90% of the game , no1 likes to be a ST specialist in a game like COH (maybe soloers and even that...) ,where u fight tons of enemies over and over , and if decide to play that ,it sucks being forced to always focus at min LTs in order to press at least a button....before everthing is dead. 

 

scrappers dont need more dmg nor tankiness is what i mean , they already at the "Cap" of this , so where we go from here ? support that makes sense for a AT that melees , maybe a massive debuff on a long cd for bosses or a way to make the team better , something so the team say grab the scrapper instead of another brute/stalker/blaster...

 

 

 

The problem isn't that scrappers can't differentiate between stalkers, it's scrappers can't differentiate from brutes.  Who are a much better comprised between tank/dps with a taunt aura so that AOEs are also more effective.  Scrappers need their own unique role to continue being a popular class.  I think like stalkers then need skill changes to their power sets instead of just different %.  Honestly I think giving offensive secondaries (like shields) to brutes was a huge mistake, since it made scrappers a lot less unique.