Scrapper vs Brute

[Saikochoro]

I have found myself starting a lot of alts between scrappers and brutes. For example, I’ll make a MA/WP scrapper. Then I will wonder, I wonder how brute compares. Or I’ll make a Elec/shield brute and wonder how would a scrapper do.

 

So a simple (yet maybe not so simple) question: which should I focus on. I get that perhaps brutes may be a bit more survivable. Or perhaps scrappers may do more damage. But is that really true? Or is that a generalization? I had to leave the game before a lot of the powers were shared between the ATs. I used to absolutely love brutes, but I loved MA. So I had to play scrapper. I thought, “I bet MA would be awesome on a brute with full fury.”

 

I will eventually probably have several of both. I like to do radio/paper missions. I would love to get in end game groups. I would play mainly a damage role and less of a tank role. I would eventually like to do some farming.

 

I get the IOs can narrow gaps. So in the end are they really all that different?

 

So what do you guys prefer: Scrappers or Brutes? And more importantly, why? Or perhaps in what situations?

 

(I’m not sure if cross posting is looked down on so I’m just posting this is scrapper board as it has more activity. I figure the same people who like scrappers also like brutes.)

[marcussmythe]

I have found myself starting a lot of alts between scrappers and brutes. For example, I’ll make a MA/WP scrapper. Then I will wonder, I wonder how brute compares. Or I’ll make a Elec/shield brute and wonder how would a scrapper do.

 

So a simple (yet maybe not so simple) question: which should I focus on. I get that perhaps brutes may be a bit more survivable. Or perhaps scrappers may do more damage. But is that really true? Or is that a generalization? I had to leave the game before a lot of the powers were shared between the ATs. I used to absolutely love brutes, but I loved MA. So I had to play scrapper. I thought, “I bet MA would be awesome on a brute with full fury.”

 

I will eventually probably have several of both. I like to do radio/paper missions. I would love to get in end game groups. I would play mainly a damage role and less of a tank role. I would eventually like to do some farming.

 

I get the IOs can narrow gaps. So in the end are they really all that different?

 

So what do you guys prefer: Scrappers or Brutes? And more importantly, why? Or perhaps in what situations?

 

(I’m not sure if cross posting is looked down on so I’m just posting this is scrapper board as it has more activity. I figure the same people who like scrappers also like brutes.)

 

Biggest differences:

The Brute has more HP and a higher RES Cap, and a MUCH higher HP Cap, meanwhile its defensive sets are exactly as effective as a scrappers.  Thus, -all other things being equal-, the brute will be tougher, and potentially MUCH tougher

 

The Scrapper has a higher base damage, and crits.  With no fury, the Scrapper will outdamage the brute.  At low levels, with fury, the brute will outdamage the scrapper.  The scrapper starts to catch up once things are fully slotted with 3 SOs for damage, and once they both trigger their buffs (build up, against all odds, yadda) the scrappers shoots ahead.  The brute gets close to catching up in the presence of truly massive (external) buffs, but were talking things like double fulcrum shift.

 

So:

The Brute will level better, and is of overall greater team utility, though its unlikely to match the scrappers DPS even on a team with a lot of buffs to go around.

 

The Scrapper will solo better, once it gets its SOs under it sometime in the 20s.

 

[Shinobu]

 

Brute has a higher resistance cap, 90% vs. 75%

 

Basically, a brute can taunt and tank better, a scrapper has better and more instant damage.  But if you're farming with a kin, the brute will not only survive much longer against more enemies but also do a lot more damage.  Outside of a farm and/or without a kin to help, it's difficult for a brute to maximize their higher damage cap.

 

 

[Mr. Vee]

What everyone else said. But I've also found (from making one then wishing I'd made the other in several cases) that a rule of thumb for me is if it's quick hits go brute, if it's big hits go scrap.

[Keilis]

Or I’ll make a Elec/shield brute and wonder how would a scrapper do.

 

Some sets and combos strongly favor one AT over the other, and Elec/Shield is probably the one that leans the furthest.  It's not obvious, but the way Elec/'s Lightning Rod and /Shield's Shield Charge work is by summoning pseudopets, and those are what deliver the effect while you're teleporting.  The thing is that their damage is based on your base damage, which is way higher for Scrappers than for Brutes.  Brutes' low base damage is offset by Fury, but that doesn't come into play with these abilities.

[Saikochoro]

Or I’ll make a Elec/shield brute and wonder how would a scrapper do.

 

Some sets and combos strongly favor one AT over the other, and Elec/Shield is probably the one that leans the furthest.  It's not obvious, but the way Elec/'s Lightning Rod and /Shield's Shield Charge work is by summoning pseudopets, and those are what deliver the effect while you're teleporting.  The thing is that their damage is based on your base damage, which is way higher for Scrappers than for Brutes.  Brutes' low base damage is offset by Fury, but that doesn't come into play with these abilities.

 

What’s an example of a set that more strongly favors brutes if you don’t mind me asking?

[marcussmythe]

Or I’ll make a Elec/shield brute and wonder how would a scrapper do.

 

Some sets and combos strongly favor one AT over the other, and Elec/Shield is probably the one that leans the furthest.  It's not obvious, but the way Elec/'s Lightning Rod and /Shield's Shield Charge work is by summoning pseudopets, and those are what deliver the effect while you're teleporting.  The thing is that their damage is based on your base damage, which is way higher for Scrappers than for Brutes.  Brutes' low base damage is offset by Fury, but that doesn't come into play with these abilities.

 

What’s an example of a set that more strongly favors brutes if you don’t mind me asking?

 

The specific example (Elec/Shield) refers to pseudopets (which work off damage base).  The same would likely be true for leap attack (I assume it, being very closely related to the other two, also works off base damage and doesnt benefit from rage).

 

Similarly, the other game changer for shield is the massive damage buff in Against All Odds.  Brutes already have a low base and a laaaarge buff to make up for it, so the additional AAO buff from shield matters rather less.

 

As for what would sing, and do so more on a brute than on a scrapper:

 

1.)  Things that leverage the larger HP Pool.  Regen and Willpower leap immediately to mind, also possibly Bioarmor.  All are heavy regeneration-based sets, so the larger HP Pool is going to be an advantage.

 

2.)  Things that dont result in downtime - anything with a good END recovery will shine here.

 

Also (MAYBE!) things that can push up against the 90% resist cap.  Most brute sets have trouble doing this without external buffs, IO madness, pool powers, or some combination of the above.  But an IOed out Invuln Brute could get ludicrously tough.  However, this would fail on point 2, above - and I think fails to respect the inherit qualities of the Brute AT.

 

Brutes are all about the Fury Bar, which builds (as far as I can tell) more strongly if you attack, often.  This suggests that a set with very fast attacks and little downtime between them would be a winner.  Claws is a classic here, and thus my gut recommendation for making a character that best leverages the Brute's strengths (not to be confused with 'Best Possible Brute'!) would be a Claws/Regen, or (if you dont want to micromanage clickies so hard) Claws/Willpower.

 

[Saikochoro]

All good info. I have been leaning into scrappers more. And they probably slightly fit me better.  But it sounds like both are great either way. I will probably have tons of both.

[Keilis]

I don't have much experience with them myself, but Fury-buffed damage auras, like Death Shroud and Lightning Field, are said to be things of beauty.

[marcussmythe]

I don't have much experience with them myself, but Fury-buffed damage auras, like Death Shroud and Lightning Field, are said to be things of beauty.

 

Damage Auras show relatively well on a Brute, because Fury has more overall 'uptime' in combat than do the clickie damage buffs that so elevate scrapper damage.  I'm not sure if they themselves count for building fury, but the combination of auras on my spines/bioarmor brute has been heartwarmingly effective.  However, we have wandered off topic, and if the OP is leaning more to scrappers, why dont we look at things that leverage scrapperdom most efficiently?

 

Since scrappers enjoy one of the highest damage bases in the game (matching Blasters), I think the real 'winner' of Scrapperdom is further buffing that high damage base.  Of the scrapper secondary sets, one has a massive built-in damage buff thats on whenever your in melee and better the more people you are in melee with - this would be shield.  Of the Scrapper Primary sets, Fire is solid single target and AOE damage, while Dark lacks the AOE component but leverages the longest duration damage buff.

 

So, for the Scrappiest of Scrappers, Id probably vote Fire/Shield (For phenomenal AOE early, growing late, and great single target damage), or Dark/Shield (for greater survivability and even higher single target damage, but less AOE and later blooming)

[Saikochoro]

I don’t mind going into people’s thoughts on both scrappers and brutes. Although I may be leaning towards scrappers now, I will still certainly make some brutes eventually. Plus I’m sure other may like to know what people think of both.

 

I will definitely have to make a /shield scrapper based on some comments. Though will have to try out lots of primaries. So many I want to try. It’s hard to get a toon past level 20 when all I want to do is try new builds haha.

[Keilis]

However, we have wandered off topic

 

Saikochoro asked about what favors Brutes, we both answered, and were thus both on-topic.  As the eternal question of Scrapper vs. Brute pops up over and over again, just like it used to, this thread will be clicked on many times, and Saikochoro's question and both of our answers will continue to be helpful and relevant.

[Shinobu]

 

I won't argue against Bio Armor for brutes, because Bio Armor is pretty special.  In many ways it's similar to what /regen was once upon a time.

 

However, one aspect of Bio Armor is that, somewhat similar to Dual Pistols and Staff Melee, it has a power called Adaptation that presents three different modes you can run in:  Efficient, Defensive, and Offensive Adaptation.  Offensive Adaptation reduces your resistances slightly, but increases your damage bonus by 31.25%

 

Which is nice on a scrapper.  ^_^

 

 

[Riverdusk]

I know I just find crits more fun than fury, no matter what the numbers say as to which is better for each powerset (up that even more with the +crit Scrapper AT IO).  Definitely more fun to me than constantly chasing fury. 

 

Considering the extra hps and therefore regen brutes get, brute probably would have been the better choice for my kat/wp, but that doesn't matter enough to me. Not to mention that with the lower resistance cap of scrappers, Strength of Will becomes pretty skippable considering I'll already be close to the smash/lethal resistance cap after tough and IO's.  I prefer to look at that as being able to take a different power somewhere else instead. 

 

Have to admit it is also fun to tank as a scrapper when it is needed and surprise people instead of being a brute where it is just expected.

[marcussmythe]

 

I won't argue against Bio Armor for brutes, because Bio Armor is pretty special.  In many ways it's similar to what /regen was once upon a time.

 

However, one aspect of Bio Armor is that, somewhat similar to Dual Pistols and Staff Melee, it has a power called Adaptation that presents three different modes you can run in:  Efficient, Defensive, and Offensive Adaptation.  Offensive Adaptation reduces your resistances slightly, but increases your damage bonus by 31.25%

 

Which is nice on a scrapper.  ^_^

 

Ive not looked closely at Staff.  Maybe there are some interesting possibilities in combining it with bioarmor and essentially reconfiguring on the fly?

[MunkiLord]

I don't have much experience with them myself, but Fury-buffed damage auras, like Death Shroud and Lightning Field, are said to be things of beauty.

 

Damage Auras show relatively well on a Brute, because Fury has more overall 'uptime' in combat than do the clickie damage buffs that so elevate scrapper damage.  I'm not sure if they themselves count for building fury, but the combination of auras on my spines/bioarmor brute has been heartwarmingly effective.  However, we have wandered off topic, and if the OP is leaning more to scrappers, why dont we look at things that leverage scrapperdom most efficiently?

 

Since scrappers enjoy one of the highest damage bases in the game (matching Blasters), I think the real 'winner' of Scrapperdom is further buffing that high damage base.  Of the scrapper secondary sets, one has a massive built-in damage buff thats on whenever your in melee and better the more people you are in melee with - this would be shield.  Of the Scrapper Primary sets, Fire is solid single target and AOE damage, while Dark lacks the AOE component but leverages the longest duration damage buff.

 

So, for the Scrappiest of Scrappers, Id probably vote Fire/Shield (For phenomenal AOE early, growing late, and great single target damage), or Dark/Shield (for greater survivability and even higher single target damage, but less AOE and later blooming)

 

Fire/SD was by far my best single target damage Scrapper, it was a thing of beauty when it got going.

[HelenCarnate]

Bio is one that is much better on a brute.  High regen and +HP which favor the brute and tanks but if forced to go into defensive stance that -25% damage hurts a lot less on a brute with high fury vs a scrapper or tank without any extra buffs.

[Werner]

I liked and played both. Which is better depends a lot on sets and how you like to play. My preferred play style is Scrapperlock - go go go, jump in, never retreat, never pause. But that play style is very well suited to Brutes and maintaining Fury. Scrappers are better at hit and run play. They can front load damage, where the Brutes are back-loaded. That can also improve survivability by knocking out your biggest threats quickly.

 

My closest 1:1 comparison was leveling Katana/Dark to 50 in both. The only thing that I'm remembering this long after was that the Brute taunt aura made a huge difference to my fun factor, and that was very important to me. Fully incarnated and IO'd, my Katana/Dark Brute would have had lower DPS but higher survivability. The lower DPS would have precluded Scrapper challenge rules AV soloing as I recall, but the higher survivability would have helped with other Scrapper challenge rules play I was then pursuing (+4x8 Incarnate). On both archetypes the defense debuffs sucked. Ugh. I love Dark Armor, probably my favorite secondary, but those defense debuffs. Ugh.

[Werner]

So, for the Scrappiest of Scrappers, Id probably vote Fire/Shield (For phenomenal AOE early, growing late, and great single target damage), or Dark/Shield (for greater survivability and even higher single target damage, but less AOE and later blooming)

Ohhhhh, my Fire/Shield. So scrappy. So fun. I spent most of my time near the end of the game playing my Fire/Shield Scrapper and my Katana/Darks. And I don't doubt that Dark/Shield rocks.

 

I want to level up a Scrappy AoE beast first, I think. I'm trying to decide between Fire/Shield Scrapper and Super Strength/Fire Brute. I've leveled up both to 50. I'm trying to remember which was more fun.

 

I am literally posting here rather than playing. Why aren't I playing? LOL

[Mr. Vee]

I had a katana/dark scrapper and pretty much the whole time past the point where it was too high to reroll I wished it was a brute. I planned to remake it as such but that's way down the road. Too many new things to try.

[Riverdusk]

 

 

My closest 1:1 comparison was leveling Katana/Dark to 50 in both. The only thing that I'm remembering this long after was that the Brute taunt aura made a huge difference to my fun factor, and that was very important to me.

 

Agreed there and probably the biggest part of why I remember giving up my kat/dark scrapper and moving to willpower.  Without the taunt aura that WP has things running away all the time I found so annoying.  One of the things you don't hear talked about much.  Why I like sets like WP, shield, and invuln on scrappers where they get the taunt aura just like brutes do.  Ice armor would probably be okay as well since it has a slow aura at least.  Not sure on some of the newer sets.

[Charistoph]

I was thinking about making a Mace/Bio Scrapper, but I'm wondering if he'd make a better Brute, over all.  Alternatively, he'd be a Rad/Bio Scrapper/Brute, but I haven't played with Rad enough to get an opinion on it, and Mace back in the NCS days was... unpleasant to use on a Tanker.