Difficulty in CoH: Community Discussion

[skoryy]

33 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Flipside, talking with the SG about this last night, essentially the only meta relevant sets for both either debuff enemies, boost stats not normally touched by IOs, or offer lots of damage with their control. If you dont check those boxes you feel superfluous in high end teams.

There is an issue with the loss of control utility when you can herd through taunt and AoE the herd, but that's not just a CoH issue.  The bigger problem is that while one tank/brute can hold the AV's aggro, you need multiple holds to keep them in place.  This is where break bars can help make control really shine.

 

As far as support, my blaster will appreciate any she gets.  And the value of support shines again when you get to incarnate content.  

22 minutes ago, Blastit said:

I didn't suggest that.

If you're nerfing to make them 'relevant', then, yeah, you're making them mandatory.  Metas are a thing.

Edited April 6, 2020 by skoryy

[Blastit]

Are tankers, brutes, scrappers, stalkers and blasters mandatory?

[golstat2003]

I'm fine with game difficulty as is. Nothing is mandatory and everything thing is appreciated. When I want to play I just ask for a team in LFG, I really don't care what the team make up is. Same if I'm forming a team.

 

Now if I'm doing specific tfs/sfs I might look for specific things depending on the content. However, ever there if you lower the difficulty it's generally okay to run with whatever.

 

I find that absolutely fine.

[ZeeHero]

3 hours ago, Blastit said:

Actually being unstoppable might not be a good idea, though. If you simply want to feel unstoppable you could just make a def-based character and run missions at -1x8.

 

 

 

I feel like people are contorting themselves into looping pretzels to come up with all manners of exotic optional difficulty systems in order to accommodate an IO system that lets you build overpowered characters. Adding invisible scores to IOs so that the sets don't actually make your character too much stronger is such a silly idea. If you feel that you have to suggest that, just decrease the numerical bonuses that the sets give so that you can no longer build characters that render support and crowd control sets irrelevant.

Becuase the current power levels are what keep most of us interested in playing. the power fantasy is far more important than "challenge" in this game where a fun challenge isnt even actually that possible.

[Infinitum]

3 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Flipside, talking with the SG about this last night, essentially the only meta relevant sets for both either debuff enemies, boost stats not normally touched by IOs, or offer lots of damage with their control. If you dont check those boxes you feel superfluous in high end teams.

Thats why I keep going back to the battle maiden experience in Apex.  Everything is useful in it and its dynamic.  Ther is no face rolling on it and you feel exhilarated after its over.

 

Thatd why I think more options that create scenarios like that is what is needed.

[Blastit]

42 minutes ago, ZeeHero said:

Becuase the current power levels are what keep most of us interested in playing. the power fantasy is far more important than "challenge" in this game where a fun challenge isnt even actually that possible.

Then play at -1 difficulty with an, idk, fire/shield scrapper. You wouldn't have to spend as much on enhancements so you could achieve the power fantasy more quickly and easily.

 

I'm not necessarily concerned with challenge, I'm concerned with the game's systems creating an environment where only damage matters. If defence and resistance buffs become less useful as the character with them progresses, then you've got multiple sets that feel worse to play as the character matures (remember how they kept tweaking blasters?). If crowd control doesn't really accomplish anything because IO sets can give even resistance sets and blasters a mere 5% probability of being hit, then you've made one of the game's more interesting systems pointless. If only the damage-focused ATs can contribute to a team the way that they are supposed to then that's a shame because the support-focused ATs are every bit as neat.

[ShardWarrior]

On 4/4/2020 at 11:45 PM, Heraclea said:

Those other games, the ones I left quickly, not only have misfeatures like elaborate boss fight choreography.  They also have other sorts of dramas like public loot, gear repair fees, and 'need or greed' rolls.  It seems to me that these mechanics all but guarantee an angry and elitist player base and constantly inject tedious drama into what ought to be a pastime.  The greatness of COH in large measure revolves around the fact that it allows group cooperative play without any of that junk.

Could not agree more

[ZeeHero]

I find it amusing that people call actual mechanics and challenge "misfeatures" in games with less drama and community issues than COH has right now. the community in FFXIV is saintly compared to what I see almost daily in COH. and COH community isnt -bad- from an MMO community perspective. its just far from the utopia blind fanboys who worship the game as the perfect game ever claim it to be.

[ZeeHero]

4 minutes ago, Blastit said:

Then play at -1 difficulty with an, idk, fire/shield scrapper. You wouldn't have to spend as much on enhancements so you could achieve the power fantasy more quickly and easily.

 

I'm not necessarily concerned with challenge, I'm concerned with the game's systems creating an environment where only damage matters. If defence and resistance buffs become less useful as the character with them progresses, then you've got multiple sets that feel worse to play as the character matures (remember how they kept tweaking blasters?). If crowd control doesn't really accomplish anything because IO sets can give even resistance sets and blasters a mere 5% probability of being hit, then you've made one of the game's more interesting systems pointless. If only the damage-focused ATs can contribute to a team the way that they are supposed to then that's a shame because the support-focused ATs are every bit as neat.

You can make CC and debuffs matter without changing how hard it is to survive, by adding enemies to team content such as TFs and itrials which have high resists+MOG mechanics so CC stops them from using their immunity crap.

[Galaxy Brain]

Just now, ZeeHero said:

You can make CC and debuffs matter without changing how hard it is to survive, by adding enemies to team content such as TFs and itrials which have high resists+MOG mechanics so CC stops them from using their immunity crap.

I like the idea of adding enemies which grant buffs that counter player defenses unless you get further buffs or CC the buffing enemy. That way the support and control ATs have more value, and while you could try to brute force these new enemies it would not be the most effective route to do so.

[ZeeHero]

Just now, Galaxy Brain said:

I like the idea of adding enemies which grant buffs that counter player defenses unless you get further buffs or CC the buffing enemy. That way the support and control ATs have more value, and while you could try to brute force these new enemies it would not be the most effective route to do so.

This would be ok to be added to newer, more difficult stuff. like if the HC team ever brought in the Battallion.

[Galaxy Brain]

Just now, ZeeHero said:

This would be ok to be added to newer, more difficult stuff. like if the HC team ever brought in the Battallion.

Why not add it to existing content? We have already seen certain groups revitalized on live with the late addition of Super Stunners, Warworks in Arachnos, etc

[ZeeHero]

1 minute ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Why not add it to existing content? We have already seen certain groups revitalized on live with the late addition of Super Stunners, Warworks in Arachnos, etc

No. becuase changing the content people already are happy with is a mistake.

 

We could add a third tier of difficulty settings though, you know how now we can go up to +4/x8? well I want to see +4/x8 (Heroic), which adds all that new stuff you've mentioned on top of everything else.

[Galaxy Brain]

Just now, ZeeHero said:

No. becuase changing the content people already are happy with is a mistake.

 

We could add a third tier of difficulty settings though, you know how now we can go up to +4/x8? well I want to see +4/x8 (Heroic), which adds all that new stuff you've mentioned on top of everything else.

They're happy with council sure 😛

 

But yes, adding that extra (Heroic/Villainous) setting you could turn on to spawn these new enemies would be nice. I would just like to also see them appear in normal content should you choose to have it on.

[ZeeHero]

So long as its optional, preferably with increased influence gains- but tough enough most farm builds wont find it a good way to solo farm- it would be a good thing.

[Dz131]

We've already seen enemies buffed in Incarnate content with much higher +to hit and more challenging power combos.  There's a lot of evidence that higher difficulty especially for 50+ heroes were coming down the pipeline, but it just never materialized in time.

[golstat2003]

23 minutes ago, ZeeHero said:

I find it amusing that people call actual mechanics and challenge "misfeatures" in games with less drama and community issues than COH has right now. the community in FFXIV is saintly compared to what I see almost daily in COH. and COH community isnt -bad- from an MMO community perspective. its just far from the utopia blind fanboys who worship the game as the perfect game ever claim it to be.

what those who play FFXIV are looking for in a game are vastly different than what those who play COH are looking for.

Edited April 6, 2020 by golstat2003

[ZeeHero]

I'd love to see Battalion content, as well as content which is more suited for solo with the more powerful 50+ characters, where you face off against top level world villains, as you team to take  down well eating cosmic horrors.

[ZeeHero]

Just now, golstat2003 said:

what those who ply FFXIV are looking for in a game are vastly different than what those who ply COH are looking for.

Yet I play both and appreciate what both do well.

 

What bothers me is not that these people dislike challenging combat and mechanics such as FFXIV has- its that they insist its a bad thing and is responsible for community issues- which is absolutely false, community issues exist independently, as HC so easily proves. Game mechanics arent that big a factor.

[golstat2003]

Just now, ZeeHero said:

Yet I play both and appreciate what both do well.

 

What bothers me is not that these people dislike challenging combat and mechanics such as FFXIV has- its that they insist its a bad thing and is responsible for community issues- which is absolutely false, community issues exist independently, as HC so easily proves. Game mechanics arent that big a factor.

True. However, as you mentioned I wouldn't add any of the mechanics that FFXIV has to this game. That ship has sailed.

For NEW content maybe.

 

EDIT: As an aside I played FFXIV for a about month to give it a fair shot. I didn't find the experience all that enjoyable. Maybe in my younger days sure, now . .. not so much.

Edited April 6, 2020 by golstat2003

[ZeeHero]

Just now, golstat2003 said:

True. However, as you mentioned I wouldn't add any of the mechanics that FFXIV has to this game. That ship has sailed.

For NEW content maybe.

 

EDIT: As an aside I played FFXIV for a about month to give it a fair shot. I didn't find the experience all that enjoyable. Maybe in my younger days sure, now . .. not so much.

I dont know how old you are, granted some people above the age of 50 may not like gameplay oriented games anymore. but I am 33 years old and raided in savage raids with a woman old enough to be my mother. its far from universal. 

 

If these people would say they simply dont like having gameplay, and play for other reasons, that'd be very different, but I'm seeing peoples rabid attacks on anyone who claims COH is not good at gameplay and combat- when it has one of the worst combat systems in an MMO I've ever seen.

 

And that is FINE, since COH is good for OTHER REASONS. no one is asking to make it like FFXIV- we cant, it  wont work, engine too old and so forth.

[golstat2003]

7 minutes ago, ZeeHero said:

I dont know how old you are, granted some people above the age of 50 may not like gameplay oriented games anymore. but I am 33 years old and raided in savage raids with a woman old enough to be my mother. its far from universal. 

 

If these people would say they simply dont like having gameplay, and play for other reasons, that'd be very different, but I'm seeing peoples rabid attacks on anyone who claims COH is not good at gameplay and combat- when it has one of the worst combat systems in an MMO I've ever seen.

 

And that is FINE, since COH is good for OTHER REASONS. no one is asking to make it like FFXIV- we cant, it  wont work, engine too old and so forth.

I enjoy the combat in COH. I also enjoy the combat in Dark Souls when I want to play that. I didn't enjoy FFXIV.

Edited April 6, 2020 by golstat2003

[BZRKR]

I think the difficulty is just right. You can make it harder, you can take it easy. After a long day at work, you can go to the Rikti buffet in the RWZ.

 

However, one suggestion I haven't seen in this topic so far to increase difficulty in certain zones like Dark Astoria or the Hazard zones is this:

1. Make all (or some) hazard zones free for all PVP.

2. Introduce (cool sounding sexyschmexy) badges for:

Defeating 333 of each AT in any Free For All PVP zone

Defeating 1000 opponents in any Free For All PVP zone

Completing 333 missions in any Free For All PVP zone

 

Getting those badges should be pretty hard, especially if your chosen badger character isn't optimal for PVP. Maybe this kind of thing would promote dual builds?

 

[Dz131]

6 minutes ago, BZRKR said:

I think the difficulty is just right. You can make it harder, you can take it easy. After a long day at work, you can go to the Rikti buffet in the RWZ.

 

However, one suggestion I haven't seen in this topic so far to increase difficulty in certain zones like Dark Astoria or the Hazard zones is this:

1. Make all (or some) hazard zones free for all PVP.

2. Introduce (cool sounding sexyschmexy) badges for:

Defeating 333 of each AT in any Free For All PVP zone

Defeating 1000 opponents in any Free For All PVP zone

Completing 333 missions in any Free For All PVP zone

 

Getting those badges should be pretty hard, especially if your chosen badger character isn't optimal for PVP. Maybe this kind of thing would promote dual builds?

 

That would just end up with people never going to those zones.  

[Galaxy Brain]

Dark souls is an excellent rythm game, not so much a combat game. 

 

I'd actually look at the Xenoblade series for cool MMO combat, even though it is single player. In short, the way they handle buffs/debuffs/control are multiplicative. They are usually short lived and drastically alter combat while active, such as a foe when its finally (toppled/mezzed) having drastically lowered defenses or even special interactions where other moves do bonuses to mezzed targets specifically. The game let's you use a variety of tactics to spike performance, but they are all viable in efficiently dealing with enemies.