Difficulty in CoH: Community Discussion

[Galaxy Brain]

This topic comes up rather often and the opinions vary wildly from person to person. However, I don't think we have actually had a to the point talk about what we think about the game's pacing / difficulty in general! 

 

Included is a poll meant to gauge the general community's thoughts on how we feel about the difficulty curve. This should be open ended and try and hash out how we feel, or any observations, in a more relaxed or generalized setting.

 

My personal take on the difficulty is that we have the freedom of choice in how to tackle it. You can play on a variety of difficulties and even pick and choose content on top of these choices to varying degrees! However, by nature of many players simply building or playing well (not 100% optimal min/max, but just kind of going as the game guides you) you can out pace a vast majority of content, which is multiplied in a team setting. This takes away from some of the optional difficulty outside of self imposed challenges (either by Flashback settings or actually self-imposed) especially as you continue to level. This is neither bad, nor good in my opinion as I am rather neutral to it. For every steamroll team I've been on, I've also been on teams where at the 20-30 range we hit real road blocks! At max level we've run into really tough encounters as well even with incarnate / IO'd characters, but those same characters make a joke out of most anything else. There exists a definite balance to all this, but I do think the game leans more towards "easy" as we have figured out most of it and how to master our abilities. 

 

What are your thoughts?

 

 

[Without_Pause]

Too easy.  Level 50 Non-Incarnate content with Incarnates, I feel this the most on controllers as things get decimated so quickly, why control? Level 50 +4 teams can get filled super quickly because it is essentially farming without the mind-numbing repetition. Counter point, some +4 AVs can give PUGs fits to where it feels more like a slog than fun.

 

Too hard, or at least annoying. Soloing sub level 22 for the obvious reason of lack of decent slotting.

 

I think the balance overall is fairly good outside of the outliers.

[reib]

The game, after lvl 50, Is definelly too Easy.

Edited March 29, 2020 by reib

[nihilii]

"I have another opinion" - rewards should be buffed on harder content so people don't stick to easy content past the point they don't need to. When the experience of 90% of the playerbase is AE farms, radio missions, +0 TFs on full teams, the game is bound to feel too easy.

 

Appropriately buffed rewards wouldn't be a magic bullet. Homecoming opened *several* cans of worms at once, through power creep here and there but also speeding up incarnate progression and making things more available through cheap converters, level agnostic market and the like. From that point there's little way to make the game harder without resorting to (IMHO) unfun rulebreaking mechanics as seen in iTrials. Or taking A LOT of stuff away.

So, the best solution might be to accept this is an easy game by default and also gently incentivize you to crank up the slider and seek the harder content that already exists.

[@Ghost]

I think there's a surprising wide variety. I've played with people brand new who absolutely struggle (often from lack of knowledge/poor tutorializing,) I've played on teams full of veteran min-maxers, and I've played with more casual groups that fall somewhere in-between. On the whole, things might scale a little too easy and I think that's absolutely fine.

 

I would like to see higher difficulty options and rewards for "traditional" content, though. iTrials can be challenging at times, but I think that's more of a "herding sheep" thing that's inherent to raids in pretty much every MMO.

 

 

[Lines]

Older level 50 content is the weakest part of the game at the moment for me, when it could be the strongest. It's kinda been left in the dust while the ceiling has moved upwards without it, but is disproportionately rewarding for how easy it is.

 

Sub-45 older content is better balanced, but I think it largely needs something more like an interest pass than a difficulty pass. Cull a few kill alls, keep contacts and their missions in the same zone, focus the missions a bit more on the plots, that sort of thing.

 

I think there's a lot that can be done. I think that the solutions can be extrinsic to the players and not upset those who like the feeling of brutal power that having an easy game has. I also think that solutions that don't involve player nerfs are distinctly more interesting than those that do (though, there are some things I would nerf if I were king. Be glad I'm not). Incentive for harder options should be part of this.

 

One simple solution (standard code rant aside) might be to give incentive to four-man teams running at x8. The balance is a bit more on point there and different characters have more space to contribute their unique playstyles. 1.5x merit rewards, for instance.

Edited March 29, 2020 by Lines

[Blackfeather]

I can't quite comment on game 'difficulty', but I can certainly point out some observations on how it 'feels'. I generally prefer playing at the lower levels and smaller teams, as the pace of the game there feels less focused on rushing from mob to mob through sheer strength, and better allows for other means of handling enemies in a way that still feels relevant (i.e. not outpaced by just dealing a lot of damage).

 

Naturally, I'm aware there's plenty of people who like the opposite - that the lower levels are something not enjoyable because that's the case. The game draws in different people, I suppose.

[PeaceMack]

There's a wide variety of player skill. Someone who's intimately familiar with Mids, and spends a bunch of time tweaking builds and IO'ing their characters to within an inch of their lives is going to have a much easier experience than someone who either doesn't know how to do that, doesn't care to do that, or doesn't have the in-game funds to implement their build.

 

I think the question is a little broad. The experience on a team is going to be different from the experience solo, and both will differ based on level. So when we're talking difficulty, are we talking difficulty in a team? Solo? Lower level? Higher level? Sure, a team of level 50 IO'd incarnates will blow through content; though I chalk this up to the game closing early before the original devs were able to implement more challenging late-game content.

 

There's also a wide variety of difficulty for various archetypes. In my experience, brutes are pretty much easy mode from start to finish. Blasters can be amazing at higher levels with enough IOs, but might struggle until then.  Support archetypes are a great power multipliers on a team, yet depending on the power sets can struggle solo.

 

And, another complicating factor is that people play differently. If you actively avoid risk by power leveling to level 50, twink out a character with IOs, and only then tackle lower level content and task forces, of course it's going to be easier. Frostfire is a very different experience at native level 10 with training origin enhancements than it is with the extra powers, power slots, and whatever set bonuses you might have on an exemped level 50. Or take the Sutter task force, which starts at level 20: pre-SOs. Regardless of whether you know what you're doing on that one (and it can be confusing to legit newbies), it's going to be harder on DO's with fewer powers and power slots.

 

Anyway, I answered, "just right" mainly because, in my opinion, there's quite a bit of nuance to that question and someone can find a play style that will be just about right for them.

[GM Tock]

As a relativist, for me it depends on the day.  I don't think I'd have a single coherent answer.

[Redlynne]

I'm of the opinion that while Incarnate stuff is "definitely A Thing™" in terms of welcoming Power Creep Tsunami ... the effects of Incarnate Slotting really ought to be something "reserved" for specific zones of the game ... such as:

• The Hive/The Abyss
• The Rikti War Zone
• The Storm Palace
• "New" Dark Astoria
• Ouroboros Specific Stories/Missions (such as the Alpha attunement arc and so on)
• Incarnate Trials
• Task Force Missions/Strike Force Missions

Everywhere else in the open/shared world, Incarnate Slot effects should (I feel) be suppressed.  The reason for that decision is that so much of that pre-Incarnate legacy content was never designed with Incarnate power levels in mind.  LIMITING where Incarnate Slots can be "relevant" to what amounts to End Game Content ... such as:

• The Statesman/Ms Liberty Task Force
• The Lord Recluse Strike Force
• The Imperius Task Force
• The Lady Grey Task Force
• The Diabolique Task Force
• The Justin Augustine Task Force
• The Faathim the Kind Task Force

... would help "rebalance" the sense of where the End Game IS and how "relevant" Incarnate slots are to the rest of the game experience.  That way, Incarnate Slots are an End Game Add-on for End Game Content ... rather than being something that absolutely trivializes practically ANY content that is Level 47+ (of which there is quite a lot!).

 

If Incarnate Slotting became more of a "sometimes" factor, I'm thinking it would improve the overall health and diversity of the game as a whole.

As is, with Incarnate Slotting being an "always on" factor at Levels 47+ it merely succeeds in trivializing what would otherwise be compelling/challenging content that wasn't designed to account for Incarnate Slots and Level Shifting.

Edited March 29, 2020 by Redlynne

[Peacemoon]

Some thoughts:

 

At low level I think things are generally fine.
 

After level 20 player power goes up substantially in a curve and mob power doesn’t keep up any longer. Mobs are not balanced around IOs. They are still balanced around DO/SOs. I still remember those days clearly, and things were so much harder. 
 

Teams of 5 or more after 20s just steamroll everything. Particularly as high geared melees can take on a whole spawn themselves without the team supporting them. 
 

Task forces are much easier now because everyone is sidekicked/exemplered to the max level. ‘Back in the day’ it was not unusual to start a Synapse task force with half the group as level 16/17, and it made it more challenging when fighting level 20 clockwork. Now-a-days everyone is at the top of the bracket, so most enemies are same level or only +1.
 

I actually don’t have a problem with incarnates as much because by the time you get to 50 I think you’ve deserved the chance to overspec your character. They aren’t active below 45 anyway, and you can unlock them without doing incarnate trials. 

 

I think for these reasons I find myself playing a lot more solo content, or team up for low level stuff, as I find the higher end team stuff a bit boring to be honest. Things like citadel or numina can be a bit of a grind because there is little risk of failure, and the final AV fight can be an anticlimax. Sometimes it’s a case of rushing to get some powers off even though they’re not needed.

 

So suggestions and advice? Well here are some ideas:

1) For Task Forces, especially signature ones, mobs should really be at least +2 or +3. With new sidekick system they should be made higher level. Their level should be based on the team leads level and not auto set. This would instantly make them harder and more akin to the difficulty they once were. 

2) Ouroboros allows you to challenge yourself on its story arcs. Allow us to do the same for TFs. The option for no enhancements, no inspirations, mobs buffed, players debuffed are already there. However they’re never used because, why would you? Allow rewards for a TF to be substantially buffed if these options are selected. E.g. double merits for choosing a no enhancement run. (Random numbers- but the principle would be good). Pros: people can OPT IN to more challenging versions of old content, and get more rewards for doing so. For those that like it as it is, things continue as normal. 
 

3) Consider buffing mobs above 30 to take into account IOs. Yes we have to be really careful here as the variance between low geared and max geared is extreme. To be honest I’m really hesitant with this unless we...

 

4) Standardise enhancements. Get rid of SOs and let the shops sell IOs that scale. (Make crafting regular IOs cheaper than buying them). This lets shops be useful again and reduces the gap between the haves and have nots. Give the shops mission arcs that reward you with some ATO enhancements. Or random IO recipes, to encourage people to get into crafting. Put crafting stations in every shop so you don’t have to goto the university. Enhancements are a lot more complex then ever before, even I as someone who knows far too much about this game had to really study the subject to get a good understanding. It is not friendly for a new player and far too many pitfalls.

 

5) Travel - okay this is not completely related but travelling at the moment is a case of hopping everywhere via your SG base. I think that’s fine, but the /enterbasebypasscode command should only work at base portals. Occasionally I’m in a team where someone doesn’t know about this and they are seriously disadvantaged (and yes I do try help them out), but it’s another example of hidden power not available to the masses, or else it would simply be a power unlocked at low level. There is already a base teleporter power as a day job, so...

 

 

So in summary I suppose it is a range of issues from mob difficulty generally, to how things like sidekicking work now to change everyone’s levels, to fully decked out IO’d characters next to someone with DO/SOs, and hidden advantages if you know how to use them through / commands.

 

Some of these are not healthy for the game, but this is just my opinion.

 

Peace out!

Edited March 29, 2020 by Peacemoon

[Peacemoon]

Speaking again about mobs. Sometimes there is such huge variance between the new and the old. I was fighting the max level family group in a praetoria mission, and their heavy weapon gunners just tore through my controller. It was a bit of wake up as I’d been happily hopping through missions until then. But their massive damage, control resistance and perception through stealth just made me have to reduce the difficulty as just one would kill me in seconds! I was fighting each group based on wether they had a heavy gunner in it or not. 
 

So on one hand they made the game more challenging and interesting. They have new powers (based on the resistance group?) but on the other hand it was a bit of a gear change in difficulty. But maybe this shows that some of the older groups could be buffed up a bit. Like Crey, and that wouldn’t necessarily be a bad thing.

Although I realise once Homecoming starts changing stuff too much, it might turn people off the game. So not sure how much can be done?

[Troo]

Difficulty for a level 40-45 is very different from a level 50 purple/ATO build costing billions.

Difficulty for a level 45-49 is light years from a T4 purple/ATO character.

 

This game is supposed to lean toward the "less difficult w/ some challenging content" end of the spectrum.

[Heraclea]

The game overall for me is mostly just right, with a few odd difficulty spikes.  I've been running a lot of old school content on stealthy, mission-specialist characters.  Content that others would find tedious (find five glowies on a large outdoor map) is relatively easy for them.  Then all of a sudden an elite boss pops up.  And it's Nosferatu. 

 

The game is at its best when teams can just socialize rather than focus on the sort of tedious fight mechanics that other MMOs routinely serve.  Crap like the blue patches on the Battle Maiden fight on the Apex TF, or the rings business on the BAF trial.  This was the sort of crap other MMOs would routinely dish up, that sent me running back to City of Heroes.  Anything that goes 'You can't play right now' or 'Stop what you're doing and go stand over there.' 

[Troo]

What to do?

 

I agree with the post above from @Redlynne with caveats.

• Alpha slot could function similarly to purple sets & bonuses, and apply to characters for lower content.
• Judgement, Interface, Lore, Destiny, Hybrid. Genesis, ect should not apply to level 49 content and below.
• With the exception being the Flashback system where it could be optional.

[Lines]

Just now, Heraclea said:

Anything that goes ...'Stop what you're doing and go stand over there.' 

That's called dodging.

[Yomo Kimyata]

I used to think of CoX as a game of chess, but eventually realized that was a flawed analogy.  Rather, I think of CoX as a chessboard. 

 

There are a lot of games you can play on a chessboard.  You can play grandmaster level chess; you can play beginner chess.  You can play checkers.  There are a hundred other games you can play on an 8x8 board with alternating colored squares.  Heck, you can push horsies around the board and make "Freem!" noises.

 

That's all good, and I don't really care what type of game you want to play unless it personally affects me.  There are two viewpoints that come up a lot, however, that I cannot support:

 

1.  "An 8x8 grid is too big and hard and tedious!"  No, I do not support your concept of fundamentally simplifying the game.  That negatively affects everyone higher than you on the difficulty chain.

2.  "Well, you can handicap yourself to make it more challenging!"  I do this already, but playing checkers blindfolded, drunk, and left-handed doesn't make it chess.

 

 

[HelBlaiz]

I think the issue with difficulty being too low stems from IOs not being calculated into the difficulty curve. That being said, I don't think they should be. I haven't used any IO builds outside a fire farmer I copy and pasted, essentially. As an Invuln/TW tank, I can still be destroyed by Chimera (or whatever praetorian Manticore is called) and his lackeys if I'm not careful while running basic IOs. I'm fairly certain the leader had the levels adjusted upward and I was still leveling the toon at the time. I think I was level 35? I've also struggled to keep up with my IOd to the gills SG mates on the same character at fifty, again using basic IOs, no sets, against custom enemies in AE story arcs for rp events.

 

Yes, the game can be too easy if you are slotting attuned sets as you level and stick to fighting easier spawns. It's a different story if you try leveling through first and night ward on just regular SO/IOs. If people are looking for a challenge to match their IO masterpiece with T4 incarnate powers, the game currently doesn't support that. I feel for them, I do, but if all they want is A challenge, use an SO build and fight some Malta/Arachnos instead of Council. Somewhere between -1x1 to +4x8 should provide a challenge then.

Edited March 29, 2020 by HelBlaiz
damned touchscreen keyboard

[Coyotedancer]

Is the game OMG!TOOEASY?

 

I'd say the only real answer is.... It depends.

 

If you're rolling Council scanners in PI with an 8-player team made mostly of full Incarnates with MIDS-tweaked set-builds owned by focused, experienced players, then yes... The game is a total cake-walk. No challenge at all. A Master STF run would be no big deal with a team like that, much less any of the "regular" content. That's not a new thing. Quite a few of us learned how to blow a proverbial hole through the middle of the City LONG before Incarnates came along. 

 

If you're running more than Council missions... While solo, say, or in a duo or trio or small group, or in one made of characters with less-than-great builds, less skilled or experienced players, or just with people who are faffing around and "in it for the lulz" then your experience is apt to be much, much different. You'll see team wipes on Carnie maps, multiple deaths when Crimson sends you after Malta, bad pulls that result in the group being overwhelmed by... lots of things, honestly. (Yes. I've even seen it happen on Council missions. o_0) It's a very different world from running with a smash team.

 

Among those of us here on the forums, I suspect that the first example I mentioned... The wrecking-ball smash team... is the more "typical" experience. That's going to color our perceptions pretty strongly. It's going to make the game seem "too easy" across the board, because that's the way we tend to experience it. For full teams of experienced players running well-designed and equipped characters, it IS easy.

 

But not everyone is an experienced player. Or running with a full team. Or on a character with a half-billion INF+ min/maxed build. 

 

Yes. A lot of very vocal forum users are... But us forum users have NEVER been a good representation of the "average" City player. That was true back in the Live days (and mentioned pretty frequently when discussions about changing game balance came up-) and I'd be beyond shocked if it didn't still hold just as true today. Just because the game is a cake-walk for most of us doesn't necessarily mean the same is true for Joe Anybody with his first-ever Corruptor, who avoids game forums on principle, has never seen MIDS and is running on a mish-mash of SOs and what-ever-he-got-as-drops.

 

Players like that exist. 

There are a lot of them.

They have a very different experience of the game's difficulty than we do.

 

 

Edited March 29, 2020 by Coyotedancer

[jubakumbi]

In this game you can make a character as powerful as a god like Thor, or as 'normal' as a homeowner out for vigilante justice.

 

With the ability for the player to create these power level themselves using, or not using, IOs, etc., the challenge is what the individual chooses to make it, IMO.

 

If you want the game to be easy, you can make it easy, if you want it to be hard, you can make it hard.

 

IMO, just because you beat a game by creating the most powerful character using the tools available, does not mean there has to be an endless challenge for that character, they became a god.

IMO, it's just personal responsibility to find the challenge level you enjoy and this game offers many of them if you take the time to find them.

 

I think the biggest failing on the part of most players is the inability to give their (most powerful) characters actual flaws...flaws are what make real personalities in comics, flaws are what define heroes as they overcome the setbacks caused by those flaws, IMO.

[Caulderone]

1 hour ago, Troo said:

What to do?

 

I agree with the post above from @Redlynne with caveats.

• Alpha slot could function similarly to purple sets & bonuses, and apply to characters for lower content.
• Judgement, Interface, Lore, Destiny, Hybrid. Genesis, ect should not apply to level 49 content and below.
• With the exception being the Flashback system where it could be optional.

I could dig the Alpha slot working like a purple set bonus, that would actually be really cool.

 

The only other thing I'd suggest, I have already suggested at least twice in threads in the Suggestion forum.

Make an option to turn the Alpha level shift and the other two Incarnate shifts off in the Incarnate interface.  This would give us back the ability to do level 45-50 non-incarnate content at +4 difficulty instead of +3, and the solo Incarnate arcs in DA at +4 instead of +1, without having to unslot the Incarnate powers completely.

[Oubliette_Red]

3 hours ago, GM Tahquitz said:

As a relativist, for me it depends on the day.  I don't think I'd have a single coherent answer.

My answer was to check all the boxes.

 

Depending on what character I'm on or what team I'm on the content can be easy... or difficult.

 

I'm all for duplicating the Ouro flashback settings to the rest of the game for the folks that feel that everything is "too easy".

[Galaxy Brain]

31 minutes ago, jubakumbi said:

 

I think the biggest failing on the part of most players is the inability to give their (most powerful) characters actual flaws...flaws are what make real personalities in comics, flaws are what define heroes as they overcome the setbacks caused by those flaws, IMO.

 

This is something that is really, really hard to do well in a video game. Look above to where a player was downright mad that such "kryptonite" style mechanics were present in some content.

 

By nature, the game guides you into getting stronger with no real setbacks aside from how picking one power means you might not be able to pick another. There are very, very, very few cases where you actually have a real weakness in your character by design (such as a true damage type hole (the way defense works can cover such weaknesses), or a power that actually gives a drawback like a self debuff of hurts yourself). The powers that still do give you drawbacks (crashing t9s) are widely ignored due to their benefits not being worth the downsides, mostly due to the sets they are in offering what the T9 does without downside other than time to grab the powers. For example, Elude in SR sort of copy/pastes the effects of the set again on you then crashes after 2 minutes. For somebody who had played with all the sr powers till 38/32, they are most likely already 1 small purple from soft cap at all times anyways and have good movement speed boosts. Why take that power that adds relatively little then takes away?

[Bastille Boy]

We've had several threads about this already. But last June, @hastened made this excellent point:

Quote

The thing I find most important about City of Heroes that seems to be missing in many other MMOs is the difficulty adjustment.  City of Heroes is not a well balanced game.  That would be a significant problem, as it could only appeal to either very casual gamers who don't really want to ever be challenged or would drive those people away....except that they let you pick your own difficulty.  And that makes all the difference in the world.

 

And yes, it is relatively easy to hit the point where you can solo +4/x8 missions....if you pick the enemies.  It is much, much harder to hit the point where you can solo +4/x8 across the entire spectrum of mission types the game can throw at you.  There is enough of a performance ceiling to provide everyone with the amount of challenge they like for fun, and that's an amazing feature that is totally missing from many other MMOs.

At this point, several things are clear:

1. Many players would like the game to be harder, or to provide more incentives to play the challenging content that is already in the game.
2. Many players do not want the game to be harder. At least, they (rather, we) do not want to change the game in a way that makes it necessary to go through very difficult missions or a long grind to get a toon up to level 50. Some of us are looking for a casual game or a feeling of power. Some of us have altitis. Some of us are interested in PVP, which is currently only available in a real way for level 50 toons with full accolades.
3. Polling the forums is not a useful way of finding out which group of users is larger. The people who regularly read the forums are not representative of the player base.
4. We have a volunteer dev team. They've worked hard to get the game where it is. They are working hard to keep it going. They have limited time and resources.

Edited March 29, 2020 by ejworthing
URL fix

[jubakumbi]

19 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

 

This is something that is really, really hard to do well in a video game. Look above to where a player was downright mad that such "kryptonite" style mechanics were present in some content.

 

By nature, the game guides you into getting stronger with no real setbacks aside from how picking one power means you might not be able to pick another. There are very, very, very few cases where you actually have a real weakness in your character by design (such as a true damage type hole (the way defense works can cover such weaknesses), or a power that actually gives a drawback like a self debuff of hurts yourself). The powers that still do give you drawbacks (crashing t9s) are widely ignored due to their benefits not being worth the downsides, mostly due to the sets they are in offering what the T9 does without downside other than time to grab the powers. For example, Elude in SR sort of copy/pastes the effects of the set again on you then crashes after 2 minutes. For somebody who had played with all the sr powers till 38/32, they are most likely already 1 small purple from soft cap at all times anyways and have good movement speed boosts. Why take that power that adds relatively little then takes away?

It can be as easy as just not patching that Psi hole your set has, or not adding in as much defense with IOs, or making sure the character can still run out of endurance if not played well.

There are a ton of ways to still have a flaw, IMO.

 

I can agree overuse of direct 'kryptonite' is often not fun, but that is not the same thing, IME.