Discussion: Disabling XP No Longer Increases Influence

[Super Atom]

1 minute ago, Eran Rist said:

I'm deleting your statement just to @ you and not to dismiss you please don't get mad.

 

 

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LotG last 5 snapshot as of right now 03/31: 2222 EDT

+Recharge ~8,000,000 324S 2345B

Defense ~5-7,000,000 678S 763B

Def/End ~6-7,000,000 79S 743B

D/E/R ~7,000,000 208S 420B

Def/Rech ~5-6,000.000 257S 370B

End/Rech ~5-7,000,000 73S 304B

 

So, that's 1-3,000,000 difference in the cost of a +Recharge versus anything else in the set. Additionally, there's anywhere from 300-600% larger demand (2345 bids) for the global... yet a price increase of 25-70%. This is because of converters. It is still more valuable... but the price isn't even HIGHER because someone can buy one of the other ones, convert it, and hopefully get what they need. 3 converters/roll (@~100k/converter) with 1 in 5 odds of getting the one you want (it always converts to something different) - that's 300k per roll. Or, even at 7 million for the fodder, you've got 3 chances to get your desired enhancement before you've lost money. If you pick one up for 5 million? 10 rolls.

 

Converters LOWER scarcity, and LOWER prices overall. They contribute to market stability, not volatility.
 

 

Ok now go look at a lot of the other defense sets, how many are available and their prices. You will see the negative effect converters have. While i agree with you converters can help as much as they hurt, they certainly do a lot of hurt. It's not just defense either, look at any of the must have IO's, they're all out of whack because of converters. I'm also not saying it's world ending either, just that i think converters hurt more than everyone being rich.

[Errants]

14 minutes ago, Faultline said:

I think there is a misunderstanding on why Salvage, Recipes and Crafted Enhancements are grouped. The reason is to help lower level characters by moving influence from high levels to low. The core concept behind the grouping is that if you obtain a desirable recipe at level 10, it sells for exactly as much as if you'd obtained it at level 50. Level 50 characters at the main influence generators, so unless it is at least possible for low level characters to generate items that high level characters can buy, all the influence will be concentrated at the top.

 

Salvage doesn't have levels; instead, they are grouped in three bands (level 10-25, 26-40, 41-50) and so in order for the same idea to work, we need to convert low level salvage like a Mu Vestment into high level salvage like a Positronic Matrix. The fact that it enables conversion within the same rarity is a side effect, not the main goal. There is no intention to have the market automatically convert items, outside of trying to help low level characters fund themselves through their own drops without needing seed money from a high level character.

HOLY CRAP! I knew that it worked that way (salvage in pools, recipes in level band pools, crafted set IO's in leveled/attuned pool), but I never knew why... The reasoning is amazing, and thank you for sharing that! *mind blown*

 

2 minutes ago, Super Atom said:

Ok now go look at a lot of the other defense sets, how many are available and their prices. You will see the negative effect converters have. While i agree with you converters can help as much as they hurt, they certainly do a lot of hurt. It's not just defense either, look at any of the must have IO's, they're all out of whack because of converters. I'm also not saying it's world ending either, just that i think converters hurt more than everyone being rich.

Okay, Reactive Defenses - Rare set, similar level band (20-50) as LotG (25-50). has the same 5 enhancements and a global (Scaling Resist bonus). They're all going for ~2.5 million, some spikes up to 5 million, and the global is 5 million with 1 10 million sale. There's also a much lower number of both bids and listings. You can buy one of these for 1/3rd the cost of an LotG, and then use converters to roll within defense sets to get LotG, and then roll for your +Recharge. Buy a level 41 or higher and 50% of your first conversion will be LotG (only 3 pools at that level) - 200-400k inf. Then roll the LotG until you get +Recharge - 300-1,500k inf. Total cost: 3-4.5 million influence. Seems cheaper than buying an LotG outright. Oh, not attuned - catalysts are 2 million on the market, totals up to 5-6.5 million. Still cheaper than the 8 million off the market.

 

Converters are GOOD. Converters lower prices overall.

Edited April 1, 2020 by Eran Rist

[SwitchFade]

Just now, Coyotedancer said:

 

Believe that if you like, but no... that really wasn't the point. 

 

Anyway, since it's unlikely this conversation will turn into anything more productive than your continuing to harp on a point I never argued, I'm not going to reply again. Carry on and enjoy yourself.

You should reread your own words, you said what you said. No one is harping (quite insulting of you, by the way).

[Abraxus]

32 minutes ago, Zeraphia said:

Again, with the "well, there could be nothing at all, be glad for what you do have." This is a forum, this is a recent change, let people have their discussions about it and don't tell them to essentially "shut up and be grateful" for what they do have. You disagree with others, which is totally understandable, but it is unreasonable to tell others to just "sit there and be happy" with changes they don't agree with when they have a platform to discuss their discontent with it. I'm not quoting you, I'm giving emphasis toward the phrases, however, this is essentially how these types of things come across online. I too am grateful that the game exists to play it in the state that it is, however, that doesn't mean that we should worship every single decision the current devs make, nor do I believe that they want us to, they want us to give our opinions on issues we do not agree with or like.

I have said in previous posts in this thread, though one could easily be forgiven for not having seen them in this long discussion, that everybody is entitled to the opinion on these things, and free to act on them as they will.  Discussion is healthy, debate is healthy.  But, accusing them of wrecking their own economy, and that there are people out here who know better than they what is best for the game, is a tad presumptuous.  They see this stuff from the code level, and they have to make it work on a global basis.  Sometimes that runs afoul of folks established play style.  I get it.  But, one can never allow themselves the luxury of assuming that it is bad for the game, because it bad for them.  It is also not cool to assign nefarious, and ulterior motives to the actions of the folks that provide all of this to us for free, unless we choose to donate (which I do, every month).  

 

So, feel how you will, and feel free to express it.  But, do so knowing that we ARE extremely fortunate to have a group of people doing for us what they do every day, and we have apparently grown so used to the idea that it will always be this way, that we can tell them how they should do it.  If that comes across as uncomfortable, or unpleasant.  Apologies.  But, I do feel grateful for the extremely rare second chance we have been given, and refuse to fall into the temptation to take it for granted, as we did in the days of live.  

 

I have been without, and I will take whatever comes down the road, as opposed to that. 

Edited April 1, 2020 by Abraxus

[Wavicle]

6 minutes ago, Zeraphia said:

 

I didn't say it was, I said that's how those types of statements are often interpreted. 

I don't think it was necessary to attack him for something he didn't say because other people often fail at reading comprehension.

[Peerless Girl]

Just now, Abraxus said:

I have said in previous posts in this thread, though one could easily be forgiven for not having seen them in this long discussion, that everybody is entitled to the opinion on these things, and free to act on them as they will.  Discussion is healthy, debate is healthy.  But, accusing them of wrecking their own economy, and that there are people out here who know better than they what is best for the game, is a tad presumptuous.  They see this stuff from the code level, and they have to make it work on a global basis.  Sometimes that runs afoul of folks established play style.  I get it.  But, one can never allow themselves the luxury of assuming that it is bad for the game, because it bad for them.  It is also not cool to assign nefarious, and ulterior motives to the actions to the folks that provide all of this to us for free, unless we choose to donate (which I do, every month).  

 

So, feel how you will, and feel free to express it.  But, do so knowing that we ARE extremely fortunate to have a group of people doing for us what they do every day, and we have apparently grown so used to the idea that it will always be this way, that we can make tell them how they should do it.  If that comes across as uncomfortable, or unpleasant.  Apologies.  But, I do feel grateful for the extremely rare second chance we have been given, and refuse to fall into the temptation to take it for granted, as we did in the days of live.  

 

I have been without, and I will take whatever comes down the road, as opposed to that. 

I normally don't reply with stuff like "QFFT" or "This" but...uh...yes.

[Yomo Kimyata]

7 minutes ago, Grouchybeast said:

And this works brilliantly.  On live the majority of set recipes that dropped at low level were vendor trash.  On HC the majority of set recipes that drop at low level will turn a profit if crafted.  It took me a little while to get used to the change when I started playing, but once I understood it, the simplicity and cleverness of the idea behind it impressed me a lot.

In fact, most rare recipes are now vendor trash.

[Super Atom]

13 minutes ago, Eran Rist said:

HOLY CRAP! I knew that it worked that way (salvage in pools, recipes in level band pools, crafted set IO's in leveled/attuned pool), but I never knew why... The reasoning is amazing, and thank you for sharing that! *mind blown*

 

Okay, Reactive Defenses - Rare set, similar level band (20-50) as LotG (25-50). has the same 5 enhancements and a global (Scaling Resist bonus). They're all going for ~2.5 million, some spikes up to 5 million, and the global is 5 million with 1 10 million sale. There's also a much lower number of both bids and listings. You can buy one of these for 1/3rd the cost of an LotG, and then use converters to roll within defense sets to get LotG, and then roll for your +Recharge. Buy a level 41 or higher and 50% of your first conversion will be LotG (only 3 pools at that level) - 200-400k inf. Then roll the LotG until you get +Recharge - 300-1,500k inf. Total cost: 3-4.5 million influence. Seems cheaper than buying an LotG outright. Oh, not attuned - catalysts are 2 million on the market, totals up to 5-6.5 million. Still cheaper than the 8 million off the market.

 

Converters are GOOD. Converters lower prices overall.

Sorry i didn't see your edit until now

 

I play on torchbearer, and often times when i go to get reactive or lower recipes there is 1-3 available and often the little thing will show the last sold as 5-6mil but they are not 5-6 mil they are often much higher as theres less. It could entirely be I'm IO'ing at a dip or bad spot, but in my experiences there are usually tons of procs but not many of the other sets. I also don't disagree converters are a good thing. Idk why you keep typing it lol, i just find them to lower the amount of other things available and their cost being higher because of it.

[Errants]

6 minutes ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

In fact, most rare recipes are now vendor trash.

Yup! At 500k crafting (level 50), and 500k for the rare salvage, the IO needs to sell at greater than 2 million (extra fees for my time) for me to consider crafting it. Hells, I don't even sell most recipes on the market - uncommons are 100 inf/level, and rares 200 inf/level at a vendor, so the market has to beat those costs for me to craft it in the first place, if it calling for rare salvage (yes, some uncommon recipes require rare salvage, and some rare's don't).

 

Have a Vanguard Quartermaster in my base solely to expedite liquidation of non-useful merchandise.

[Super Atom]

Hmm. triple post, no bueno.

 

Not letting me edit or delete them 😞

Edited April 1, 2020 by Super Atom

[Errants]

Just now, Super Atom said:

Sorry i didn't see your edit until now

 

I play on torchbearer, and often times when i go to get reactive or lower recipes there is 1-3 available and often the little thing will show the last sold as 5-6mil but they are not 5-6 mil they are often much higher as theres less. It could entirely be I'm IO'ing at a dip or bad spot, but in my experiences there are usually tons of procs but not many of the other sets. I also don't disagree converters are a good thing. Idk why you keep typing it lol, i just find them to lower the amount of other things available and their cost being higher because of it.

All shards use the same market. The market has cycles, and paying buy it now prices would make things more expensive (higher bids are more likely to get filled, so they purchase faster - however, placing some lower bids and waiting can have surprisingly good results).

 

And I keep harping they're good, because you keep insisting that they are what causes inflation, because they make everything thing else more expensive. I'm trying to show you they lower (overall) the costs of goods, because they turn the trash into treasures. Red Fortune (25-50 Uncommon) is all about 2.5 million. Serendipity (15-40 Uncommon) is 200k-1 million... These can both be converted into LotG's. Red Fortune's I see slotted, sometimes. Serendipity? Never. It's a trash recipe... but it has value because of converters. *Note: all prices were as of writing, and for crafted IO's, you might get even better deals by looking at recipes.

[Grouchybeast]

8 minutes ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

In fact, most rare recipes are now vendor trash.

They look like vendor trash, in that the recipes themselves are worth very little.  However, you can actually make a million or so from a lot of them when the recipe is low enough level that the crafting costs are negligible.  It's small potatoes compared to doing most things on the market, but it's certainly enough to self-fund a character as they level, and the only secret market knowledge required for the hypothetical 'average player' is to look up the price of the crafted enhancement versus the ingredients.

[Super Atom]

4 minutes ago, Eran Rist said:

All shards use the same market. The market has cycles, and paying buy it now prices would make things more expensive (higher bids are more likely to get filled, so they purchase faster - however, placing some lower bids and waiting can have surprisingly good results).

 

And I keep harping they're good, because you keep insisting that they are what causes inflation, because they make everything thing else more expensive. I'm trying to show you they lower (overall) the costs of goods, because they turn the trash into treasures. Red Fortune (25-50 Uncommon) is all about 2.5 million. Serendipity (15-40 Uncommon) is 200k-1 million... These can both be converted into LotG's. Red Fortune's I see slotted, sometimes. Serendipity? Never. It's a trash recipe... but it has value because of converters. *Note: all prices were as of writing, and for crafted IO's, you might get even better deals by looking at recipes.

Markets being connected makes a lot more sense, thanks for the info 😛

 

So the basis for my point of view on it is for example, right at the start obliteration's were the money maker. People bought up all the other sets (at the time for 10-50k a pop) and then over time those become scarce and raised the price from 50k to what is usually nowe round 1-2 million. You can argue all day 1-2 million is not a lot of money and i would agree with you, but that still is an increase from the 50k they use to be. I said earlier i don't believe the problem with converters to be a world ending issue, only that it hurts the market more than people being rich ever has. If you think that position is wrong because it lowers the price of procs that's fine and again i would agree with you that it's a strong positive for builds not to cost 10 billion influence at lowest for high end builds like during live but that was not the contention here.

[Yomo Kimyata]

This is as good a time as any to invite you all to peruse the Market forum.  Like I said earlier, we're not hoarding any secrets.  You may learn something. 

 

We may be ebil bastards, but we're YOUR ebil bastards.

[Peerless Girl]

It ALSO might be worse with so many more people playing now than "normal" and even mid-week is basically weekend prices...

[Grouchybeast]

12 minutes ago, Super Atom said:

So the basis for my point of view on it is for example, right at the start obliteration's were the money maker. People bought up all the other sets (at the time for 10-50k a pop) and then over time those become scarce and raised the price from 50k to what is usually nowe round 1-2 million. You can argue all day 1-2 million is not a lot of money and i would agree with you, but that still is an increase from the 50k they use to be.

Do you ever sell anything on the market, or do you only ever buy from it?

[Super Atom]

Just now, Grouchybeast said:

Do you ever sell anything on the market, or do you only ever buy from it?

I do both, though not as fanatically as the market forum I'm sure.

 

Again converter's aren't exactly world ending or anything. It's ok for something to have a negative effect even if small. I'm not trying to tell Eran they're wrong about anything they've said only that it's decently noticeable converters are the reason there's a lot of some sets and not a lot of others. When IO'ing i almost always need to buy and convert to the set i want. It's almost never just buy recipe of the actual IO unless I'm being lazy and don't care about influence. You can't tell me that isn't a huge difference on the market than if there wasn't converters, it being a good or bad thing doesn't matter, in the same way nerfing this specific farming method slightly won't matter.

[Errants]

19 minutes ago, Super Atom said:

Markets being connected makes a lot more sense, thanks for the info 😛

 

So the basis for my point of view on it is for example, right at the start obliteration's were the money maker. People bought up all the other sets (at the time for 10-50k a pop) and then over time those become scarce and raised the price from 50k to what is usually nowe round 1-2 million. You can argue all day 1-2 million is not a lot of money and i would agree with you, but that still is an increase from the 50k they use to be. I said earlier i don't believe the problem with converters to be a world ending issue, only that it hurts the market more than people being rich ever has. If you think that position is wrong because it lowers the price of procs that's fine and again i would agree with you that it's a strong positive for builds not to cost 10 billion influence at lowest for high end builds like during live but that was not the contention here.

So, by giving useless sets value, and lowering the cost of desired sets, converters are bad? Is that it? Giving value to 50-80% of the drops (which are trash), and lowering the barrier to entry for the 10-20% of actually sought after enhancements (the remaining percentages are the middling sets - not crap, but not the best) - this is a bad thing?

 

Oblits (20-50) 3-6 million, Scirocco (30-50) 2-5 million, Multi-Strike (30-50) 1-2 million, Eradication (10-30) 2-5 million, Cleaving (10-30) 600k-1 million. Seems to be working fine... the low level drops have value, the high level ones are affordable and available. You're right that the cost of a crafted Multi went up - that was a good thing, since that level 50 enhancement cost 500k JUST TO CRAFT (Not counting salvage). Why would someone bother to craft it if it was going to sell for 50k? Converters gave it value. Other's find value in it, because they're buying them for cheap, and then converting them to the more expensive sets.

 

Converters did cause cheaper sets to sell for more. Why aren't you selling them and reaping the benefits? The overall effect, the larger picture, converters lower market and build costs overall - both by making the desired sets more popular/affordable, giving value to unwanted drops so that a toon has larger buying power, and finally giving alternative options and allowing you to get close and fudge it by converting to your desired IO.

  

Just now, Super Atom said:

I do both, though not as fanatically as the market forum I'm sure.

 

Again converter's aren't exactly world ending or anything. It's ok for something to have a negative effect even if small. I'm not trying to tell Eran they're wrong about anything they've said only that it's decently noticeable converters are the reason there's a lot of some sets and not a lot of others. When IO'ing i almost always need to buy and convert to the set i want. It's almost never just buy recipe of the actual IO unless I'm being lazy and don't care about influence. You can't tell me that isn't a huge difference on the market than if there wasn't converters, it being a good or bad thing doesn't matter, in the same way nerfing this specific farming method slightly won't matter.

 

If the converters weren't in existence, market prices would be even higher - because you wouldn't HAVE the option to buy the something and convert to what you wanted, you'd be fully reliant on RNG or merit vending. Converters HELP the market, not hinder.

Edited April 1, 2020 by Eran Rist

[Super Atom]

10 minutes ago, Eran Rist said:

So, by giving useless sets value, and lowering the cost of desired sets, converters are bad? Is that it? Giving value to 50-80% of the drops (which are trash), and lowering the barrier to entry for the 10-20% of actually sought after enhancements (the remaining percentages are the middling sets - not crap, but not the best) - this is a bad thing?

 

Oblits (20-50) 3-6 million, Scirocco (30-50) 2-5 million, Multi-Strike (30-50) 1-2 million, Eradication (10-30) 2-5 million, Cleaving (10-30) 600k-1 million. Seems to be working fine... the low level drops have value, the high level ones are affordable and available. You're right that the cost of a crafted Multi went up - that was a good thing, since that level 50 enhancement cost 500k JUST TO CRAFT (Not counting salvage). Why would someone bother to craft it if it was going to sell for 50k? Converters gave it value. Other's find value in it, because they're buying them for cheap, and then converting them to the more expensive sets.

 

Converters did cause cheaper sets to sell for more. Why aren't you selling them and reaping the benefits? The overall effect, the larger picture, converters lower market and build costs overall - both by making the desired sets more popular/affordable, giving value to unwanted drops so that a toon has larger buying power, and finally giving alternative options and allowing you to get close and fudge it by converting to your desired IO.

 

Here let me reword for you

 

Maybe i was quick to call it a "problem" when i should have said Converters have changed the market far more than having money ever will, so why the nerf? If converters are keeping it balanced why nerf influence? If more people having more money is contributing directly to converters making more things easily available than the argument of influence inflation is bull hockey. Especially since the entire stability of this market you're praising was done so with that "exploit" in place.

 

Also idk why you keep suggesting i'm saying get rid of converters, it's actually starting to get annoying. I'm not putting words in your mouth to fluff my posts, please stop doing it to me.

Edited April 1, 2020 by Super Atom

[Errants]

4 minutes ago, Super Atom said:

Here let me reword for you

 

Maybe i was quick to call it a "problem" when i should have said Converters have changed the market far more than having money ever will, so why the nerf? If converters are keeping it balanced why nerf influence? If more people having more money is contributing directly to converters making more things easily available than the argument of influence inflation is bull hockey. Especially since the entire stability of this market you're praising was done so with that "exploit" in place.

Do you remember the costs of IO's 8 years ago? Do you remember people making trades for a single PvP IO and having to log multiple toons on, since they'd sell in excess of the 2 billion influence cap? I do. The current costs of set IO's is normalized, compared to what existed on Legacy. Converters are what enabled that. Fungibility in the market has enabled that.

 

In a year's time, I've have multiple toons with top tier set builds. I didn't even finish my top build for my main on Legacy. The difference in availability and cost is that stark, and it is due to the changes that SCORE/HC has made to the market system. 50-70% less influence is not going to break the system. But leaving it in, I've seen prices creep up since Homecoming came on in April. I see more and more farm toons because "it is the only way to afford my builds..." except that the farm toons are the one contributing to the inflation issues. I'm not selling to marketeers when I flip an uncommon into a rare and list it for 10-20x what the uncommon would've gotten - that's being bought by people who see the last 5 and bid at or above it, because they want it now. And the prices creep that way. People trade inf for time: instead of placing a bid and waiting, they overbid until they get it... and then complain that their build cost 1 billion, and they have to farm to afford anything.

 

If we didn't have converters, it'd be even worse. I'm sorry you think they're evil/a problem, but economically, you're wrong. CoX let's us perform alchemy with trade goods - literal lead into gold. Yes, the lead is more expensive to buy and sell as a result, but the gold is cheaper - and I promise, the gold is devalued more than the lead is envalued.

[First Player]

Yeah, I find farming much more fun and simpler than all this market statistics stuff.

[Super Atom]

Just now, Eran Rist said:

If we didn't have converters, it'd be even worse. I'm sorry you think they're evil/a problem, but economically, you're wrong. CoX let's us perform alchemy with trade goods - literal lead into gold. Yes, the lead is more expensive to buy and sell as a result, but the gold is cheaper - and I promise, the gold is devalued more than the lead is envalued.

 

My initial complaint on converters 

Quote

Either the rest of the set is expensive because of the proc and converters or theres none left.

you

Quote

by giving useless sets value, and lowering the cost of desired sets, converters are bad?

me in every other post

Quote

Certainly, converters are/were a good idea to help people stay in the running

Quote

I'm also not saying it's world ending either, just that i think converters hurt more than everyone being rich.

Quote

I also don't disagree converters are a good thing. Idk why you keep typing it lol

Quote

only that it hurts the market more than people being rich ever has. If you think that position is wrong because it lowers the price of procs that's fine and again i would agree with you that it's a strong positive for builds not to cost 10 billion influence at lowest for high end builds like during live but that was not the contention here.

Quote

Again converter's aren't exactly world ending or anything. It's ok for something to have a negative effect even if small. I'm not trying to tell Eran they're wrong about anything they've said only that it's decently noticeable converters are the reason there's a lot of some sets and not a lot of others

 

Maybe your issue is you think I'm referring to people being rich on live? Cause I'm talking about this server not live.  People being rich on this server has basically done a huge chunk of nothing because converters. Maybe that's a good thing by your posts, and I'm inclined to agree with you after our conversation but I still don't see how this has anything to do with influence not being what's controlling the market this time around, as i initially said.

[Super Atom]

8 minutes ago, MunkiLord said:

Everything you said is correct, and I agree completely. But you are wasting your time. This has all been said to that person many times, there’s a large thread in General discussion about yellow salvage in which many of us went over this with that person and a few others.

I don't think I've ever spoken about the market until this thread. I've talked about powers, balancing, and IO's in general but never market value or salvage. you've got the wrong super or atom bub.

 

Actually, i don't know if i've ever spoken outside of Feedback or suggestion sections... so... yikes

Edited April 1, 2020 by Super Atom

[MunkiLord]

2 minutes ago, Super Atom said:

I don't think I've ever spoken about the market until this thread. I've talked about powers, balancing, and IO's in general but never market value or salvage. you've got the wrong super or atom bub.

 

Actually, i don't know if i've ever spoken outside of Feedback or suggestion sections... so... yikes

Oh shit, you’re right. My mistake. I am sorry and will get rid of the comment as I was wrong. 

[Super Atom]

The more i think about what Eran is saying the more i think I'm getting at what they're suggesting and i might have been reading their stuff wrong not the other way around. Prices being slightly higher isn't being seen as bad because the other prices aren't 100 million. If thats what you're saying, fair enough i get it.

 

I still think converters rule the market and the change to influence being to stop inflation kind of cancel each other out a little.

Edited April 1, 2020 by Super Atom