[Beta] Patch Notes for April 5th, 2020

[Wavicle]

I may have misunderstood, but I thought they were being removed from stores, not from the game entirely.

[csr]

9 hours ago, Wavicle said:

I may have misunderstood, but I thought they were being removed from stores, not from the game entirely.

All stores except Base NPC Quartermasters; based both on the patch notes and testing.  They still drop.

[Doc_Scorpion]

An idea for easing the cash crunch at lower levels:  Currently the trainers buy back SO's for 25% of their base value....  Increasing that to 50% would significantly increase the income available to low level characters trying to kit themselves out.

[CelticForce]

I transferred a level 22 toon to beta to check this out. After clicking the Upgrade button and accepting the fee, I realized that it upgraded all of my level 20 DOs to level 25 DOs lol! I guess I was expecting it to swap them to SOs. Would it be possible to add an option to upgrade from DOs to SOs as well as upgrading the level?

[Doc_Scorpion]

3 hours ago, CelticForce said:

I transferred a level 22 toon to beta to check this out. After clicking the Upgrade button and accepting the fee, I realized that it upgraded all of my level 20 DOs to level 25 DOs lol! I guess I was expecting it to swap them to SOs. Would it be possible to add an option to upgrade from DOs to SOs as well as upgrading the level?

This has been previously discussed...
 

 

[CelticForce]

On 4/22/2020 at 2:56 PM, Doc_Scorpion said:

This has been previously discussed...
 

 

Apologies, I read through this entire thread for it, but I did not go back to previous patch note threads to look.

 

Also, I wasn't asking for it to automatically upgrade from DOs to SOs, just the possibility of an option to do so, or maybe just changing the text in the popup to say "You need xxx influence to upgrade x number of Dual Origin or Single Origin enhancements." I can see others making the same mistake when this goes live which could be a frustrating waste of influence.

[Myrmidon]

I have two level 1 characters parking at Dayjobs awaiting the outcome of this patch. 

[csr]

15 hours ago, Myrmidon said:

I have two level 1 characters parking at Dayjobs awaiting the outcome of this patch. 

Only two? All of my level 19- toons (at least 20 of them) are parked at the moment.  I've been awaiting the next patch notes, but am about to give up on it and play a couple of lowbies current style (explores and arcs to get INF and go DO to IO).

[Replacement]

I am more excited (and thus concerned about them pulling the plug on) low level SOs than literally any other CoH update I can recall at this very moment.

[Myrmidon]

2 hours ago, csr said:

Only two? All of my level 19- toons (at least 20 of them) are parked at the moment.  I've been awaiting the next patch notes, but am about to give up on it and play a couple of lowbies current style (explores and arcs to get INF and go DO to IO).

After those two, my lowest is 27, so SOs no longer matter on the others. I already have the entire IO set compliment for both of those new characters, I am just waiting to see how the SOs work until the level 17 and 27 sets can be put in place.

Edited May 6, 2020 by Myrmidon

[Myrmidon]

30 minutes ago, Replacement said:

I am more excited (and thus concerned about them pulling the plug on) low level SOs than literally any other CoH update I can recall at this very moment.

Fully slotted Stamina at level 3 will definitely fall into that category. It’s almost as good as the Tanker AoE update.

Edited May 6, 2020 by Myrmidon

[csr]

10 minutes ago, Myrmidon said:

After those two, my lowest us 27, so SOs no longer matter on the others. I already have the entire IO set compliment for both of those new characters, I am just waiting to see how the SOs work until the level 17 and 27 sets can be put in place.

I currently have 29 at 19- parked for the update (and 3 others parked as name holders who might be jump-started by the update).  It's probably time to lower the parking level to 16.

Edited May 6, 2020 by csr

[Myrmidon]

3 minutes ago, csr said:

I currently have 29 at 19- parked for the update (and 3 others parked as name holders who might be jump-started by the update).  It's probably time to lower the parking level to 16.

I have two longtime SG mates that look similar and this update will benefit them tremendously when it finds its final form.

[Doc_Scorpion]

18 hours ago, Myrmidon said:

I have two level 1 characters parking at Dayjobs awaiting the outcome of this patch. 

AIUI, this is something of an experiment and may never make it to Live.

[Myrmidon]

2 hours ago, Doc_Scorpion said:

AIUI, this is something of an experiment and may never make it to Live.

I know. If it doesn’t make it live, then those two will level the usual way. I still have 31 other characters that can see playtime while they wait.

[Apparition]

Hrm, now I have to find out what day jobs, if any, are available in Precinct Five.

 

Why yes, yes I am a masochist.  Why do you ask?

[kenlon]

On 5/6/2020 at 1:21 PM, Myrmidon said:

I know. If it doesn’t make it live, then those two will level the usual way. I still have 31 other characters that can see playtime while they wait.

If it doesn't make it live, I may cry. Seriously, the idea of being able to play through Praetoria without fighting the urge to claw my eyes out the whole time? Yes please!

[Neogumbercules]

I really think that along with this change, all crafted basic IOs should basically be unleveled and essentially "attuned." I really don't see the point in keeping them. They will make zero sense pre-22, and they're 100% useless to slot between 30-47 since the cost to benefit ratio is way out of whack compared to level 25s. They're only worth crafting at level 50 if you're trying to save a slot by +5'ing two of them.

 

Right now it's just a needlessly complex waste of time to have leveled basic IOs. At worst it's a trap for new players or players that don't understand the system to even allow them to craft higher than 25 IOs. 

[csr]

12 hours ago, Neogumbercules said:

I really think that along with this change, all crafted basic IOs should basically be unleveled and essentially "attuned." I really don't see the point in keeping them. They will make zero sense pre-22, and they're 100% useless to slot between 30-47 since the cost to benefit ratio is way out of whack compared to level 25s. They're only worth crafting at level 50 if you're trying to save a slot by +5'ing two of them.

 

Right now it's just a needlessly complex waste of time to have leveled basic IOs. At worst it's a trap for new players or players that don't understand the system to even allow them to craft higher than 25 IOs. 

Alternatively, they could simply lower the cost to craft higher level IOs.  If they were attuned people would simply start crafting them at level 7 and not need anything but Common IOs until they started to slot sets.

[Neogumbercules]

11 hours ago, csr said:

Alternatively, they could simply lower the cost to craft higher level IOs.  If they were attuned people would simply start crafting them at level 7 and not need anything but Common IOs until they started to slot sets.

True. Alternatively they could put a minimum level requirement of 23 on them. Kinda makes sense then as players get used to using SO enhancements at lower levels they unlock the ability to slot "set and forget" IOs or keep trucking with SOs.

 

Actually that exposes another weakness of the system where SOs still have practically no value at all. 

 

I think we need to either delete regular enhancements from the game, or basic IOs. Or do something drastic like give SOs Hami-O style dual values with reduced effectiveness on the extra value. Like a Damage/Recharge SO would provide 33% damage and 16% Recharge.

 

Right now it makes no sense at all that SOs and basic IOs co-exist when one is unassailably better than the other. 

[Wavicle]

I think we should just leave well enough alone. The game works just fine, yes these things are a mess, but so what?

[Doc_Scorpion]

2 hours ago, Neogumbercules said:

Right now it makes no sense at all that SOs and basic IOs co-exist when one is unassailably better than the other. 

In a world in which one is "unassailably" [sic] better - that would be true.  However, we don't live in such a world.  Here in Paragon City, IO's are worse than SO's until level 25 (where they're equivalent to an even level SO).    Arguably, not until level 35, when they're equivalent to a +3 SO.

 

[Neogumbercules]

4 hours ago, Doc_Scorpion said:

In a world in which one is "unassailably" [sic] better - that would be true.  However, we don't live in such a world.  Here in Paragon City, IO's are worse than SO's until level 25 (where they're equivalent to an even level SO).    Arguably, not until level 35, when they're equivalent to a +3 SO.

 

Man if there's one thing I didn't miss during the shutdown it was this kind of smug forum warrior shit. I'm checking into the burn unit to take care of myself now. On the way there I'll respond to this. 

 

This discussion relates only to the levels in which enhancement values actually start to matter, "SO level" and up. Yes you are technically right (the most important kind of right) that low level IOs are worse than SOs. Yes there are even a few percentage points of difference between the two kinds until IO 35. This is a well known fact. 

 

However, these minimal differences are functionally meaningless in terms of actual gameplay as soon as a character hits 22. That couple of percentage points of enhancement will not have a noticeable impact on performance at all. The difference is, as you know, the IO will never expire and the money spent on it is a perfect investment because it will always work until the player chooses to replace it. 

 

So, cheap and easily available SOs from 1-22 might be great because we can actually really boost our characters but I would still argue that it would be a smarter choice to just save your influence for permanent basic IOs at 22. The only way it would make sense would be if SOs were very inexpensive.

 

I've played plenty of characters "naked" up to 22 and it is actually a decent experience especially since the payoff of saving up is so great. 

 

Even still, keeping an enhancement type in the game that is completely outclassed (I'm talking about everything taken into account, not the minuscule percentages you got hung up on) very early on in a toons career seems pointless. We could take out SOs, make basic IOs attuned and always equal to SO strength, and the spirit of this patch will be preserved and the game will be simpler and less confusing. 

 

Should we do that? Hell, probably not. I just think it would make more sense then having SOs coexist with IOs. It's also completely backwards that a huge influence sink exists for lowbies (SO upgrading) but not for mid to high levels (permanent IOs). 

 

Anyway, the ambulance just pulled up to the hospital and the nurses are rushing out to get me so I'll be seeing you. 

[Neogumbercules]

7 hours ago, Wavicle said:

I think we should just leave well enough alone. The game works just fine, yes these things are a mess, but so what?

This might actually be the best suggestion yet! 

[Doc_Scorpion]

Pondering on costs and "cold start" characters...  A radical potential solution occurred to me last night.

SO prices were set back on Live, when we weren't on permanent quadruple XP.  Money wasn't a big issue because the average player could reasonably amass sufficient capital before outleveling his current set.  So that's kind of set the stage for the current discussion, finding ways to get more money into the player's hands.[1]

What if we tried the opposite tack?  What would happen if we lowered the cost of SO's instead?

(Obviously, I have no idea how difficult that would be in terms of coding effort.)

[1] As a side note, if we're pursuing that tack, getting rid of the gap between what various flavors of vendor pay for various origin flavors would help too.