Homecoming Server Update (April 5th): Nemesis Plots, Contests and Progression

[Septipheran]

@ArchVileTerrorIf you have something to add please feel free to chime in. Your passive aggressive "confused" reactions are getting kinda old. 

[SwitchFade]

25 minutes ago, Septipheran said:

My point is that the devs are wasting precious development resources on optimizing and improving gray-con throwaway gear. It's a waste of their time and everyone else's. This is a good opportunity to implement more robust IO system tutorials, rather than doing what they're doing. My original point was that we already have a substantial portion of the playerbase who is not using IO's. This is further incentivizing them to not learn how to properly build their characters. 

That's interesting, but I would recommend that we don't know the entirety of any plan.

 

Things don't exist in a vacuum and this may be a link in a chain. Daily, I struggle with individual work package and department owners who vociferously, rabidly discuss how and why systems shouldn't be changed, or should only be changed if/in this way, have an opinion on system analysis and design, object without knowing, etc...

 

This change is a logical step and link in a chain in many scenarios and I would wager there's more to come that will then bring a enlightenment as to the why behind the what.

 

Further, think in terms of game sustainability and longevity, keep in mind that solutions must have two aspects: short and long term, because larger changes need time, there's a need for a short term patch. Now, also remember,

 

- New players don't know about ios

- New players don't have an integrated way of accessing and understanding DO/SO/IO

- New players will use SOs regularly

- New players are necessary for game longevity and healthy growth

- Many knowledgable players use SOs

 

And there's more. The change is a positive one and further improvements can now be implemented. All change must have an origin, and this is usually a key variable that unlocks a landslide. I wager this is a turning point.

 

Be patient.

 

[Septipheran]

5 minutes ago, SwitchFade said:

That's interesting, but I would recommend that we don't know the entirety of any plan.

 

Things don't exist in a vacuum and this may be a link in a chain. Daily, I struggle with individual work package and department owners who vociferously, rabidly discuss how and why systems shouldn't be changed, or should only be changed if/in this way, have an opinion on system analysis and design, object without knowing, etc...

 

This change is a logical step and link in a chain in many scenarios and I would wager there's more to come that will then bring a enlightenment as to the why behind the what.

 

Further, think in terms of game sustainability and longevity, keep in mind that solutions must have two aspects: short and long term, because larger changes need time, there's a need for a short term patch. Now, also remember,

 

- New players don't know about ios

- New players don't have an integrated way of accessing and understanding DO/SO/IO

- New players will use SOs regularly

- New players are necessary for game longevity and healthy growth

- Many knowledgable players use SOs

 

And there's more. The change is a positive one and further improvements can now be implemented. All change must have an origin, and this is usually a key variable that unlocks a landslide. I wager this is a turning point.

 

Be patient.

 

It would probably be in the best interests of the game to simply remove all non-IO's, so we don't have to continue to deal with the portion of the population who aggresively defend their right to never learn the IO system. Either the IO system is a part of the game, or it isn't. The issue is that we have a substantial chunk of the posters here who think it's okay to simply not learn the end game gearing system- In the case of COH, the end game gearing system is the IO system.

 

But the positive side of that is IO's are available as soon as level 10. They have plenty of time to learn. Maybe instead of giving them more excuses to not learn, we should be removing the barriers, ie: take non-IO's out of the game. Have generic's drop in their place.  You made a point about longevity and player retention, and I agree that should be a priority. Ignoring end-game gear is not a good way to get to that point...

Edited April 6, 2020 by Septipheran

[SwitchFade]

3 minutes ago, Septipheran said:

It would probably be in the best interests of the game to simply remove all non-IO's, so we don't have to continue to deal with the portion of the population who aggresively defend their right to never learn the IO system. Either the IO system is a part of the game, or it isn't. The issue is that we have a substantial chunk of the posters here who think it's okay to simply not learn the end game gearing system- In the case of COH, the end game gearing system is the IO system.

 

But the positive side of that is IO's are available as soon as level 10. They have plenty of time to learn. Maybe instead of giving them more excuses to not learn, we should be removing the barriers, ie: take non-IO's out of the game. Have generic's drop in their place.  You made a point about longevity and player retention, and I agree that should be a priority. Ignoring end-game gear is not a good way to get to that point...

Absolutely hard no vote on removing SOs.

 

The game architecture is not even remotely designed for it, nor should it be. SOs exist for a good reason, what should be built, and now can be, is a comprehensive progression from SO to IO and a thorough instruction system.

 

The game should not be balanced around io's.

[SwitchFade]

Also, players ignoring IOs is ok, and playing and enjoying all normal content at +0/1 should always be ok with SO's.

[Septipheran]

Just now, SwitchFade said:

Absolutely hard no vote on removing SOs.

 

The game architecture is not even remotely designed for it, nor should it be. SOs exist for a good reason, what should be built, and now can be, is a comprehensive progression from SO to IO and a thorough instruction system.

 

The game should not be balanced around io's.

Then why are IO's in the game? And more importantly, while I have you here, what is it that you don't like about IO's? Pretty much every argument I've ever heard can be translated to "lalalala I can't hear yooooU." They're too expensive. I don't like doing math. I don't want to do research. I don't want to devote the amount of time and effort necessary to maximize my character, etc. 

 

So if player retention is the goal, why should we be catering to the lowest common denominator? There are people like myself and many others who have invested hours, months, years into this game. Shouldn't we be prioritizing how these players feel, rather than those players who can't or won't even put in enough effort to learn one of the most basic, fundamental systems in the game?

[SwitchFade]

Just now, Septipheran said:

Then why are IO's in the game? And more importantly, while I have you here, what is it that you don't like about IO's? Pretty much every argument I've ever heard can be translated to "lalalala I can't hear yooooU." They're too expensive. I don't like doing math. I don't want to do research. I don't want to devote the amount of time and effort necessary to maximize my character, etc. 

 

So if player retention is the goal, why should we be catering to the lowest common denominator? There are people like myself and many others who have invested hours, months, years into this game. Shouldn't we be prioritizing how these players feel, rather than those players who can't or won't even put in enough effort to learn one of the most basic, fundamental systems in the game?

You're making assumptions. I've never stayed "I don't like io's.

 

I have plenty of fill kit toons. I use io's as early as lvl 10 and 15.

 

You're dismissing real reasons people stay with SO's, such as convenience or desire.

 

The game is architecturally built around SOs, that's a good balance point.

 

You're not being hurt by making SOs easier to understand, acquire and use. In fact this change can allow for earlier use of SOs, which then makes room to revamp io tutorials, introductions and transitions. If anything, this is good for everyone.

[Septipheran]

Just now, SwitchFade said:

You're making assumptions. I've never stayed "I don't like io's.

 

I have plenty of fill kit toons. I use io's as early as lvl 10 and 15.

 

You're dismissing real reasons people stay with SO's, such as convenience or desire.

 

The game is architecturally built around SOs, that's a good balance point.

 

You're not being hurt by making SOs easier to understand, acquire and use. In fact this change can allow for earlier use of SOs, which then makes room to revamp io tutorials, introductions and transitions. If anything, this is good for everyone.

It's encouraging people to keep slotting vendor trash, rather than encouraging people to learn how to slot and properly build their characters.

Edited April 6, 2020 by Septipheran

[SwitchFade]

2 minutes ago, Septipheran said:

It's encouraging people to keep slotting vendor trash, rather than encouraging people to learn how to slot and properly build their characters.

They're not trash, that's factually inaccurate. A lvl 30 toon with lvl 30 io's or lvl 30 SOs is functionally the same.

 

You're kind of now just arguing from your own opinion, regardless of facts.

Edited April 6, 2020 by SwitchFade

[SwitchFade]

Just now, SwitchFade said:

 

Oops

Edited April 6, 2020 by SwitchFade

[SwitchFade]

3 minutes ago, Septipheran said:

It's encouraging people to keep slotting vendor trash, rather than encouraging people to learn how to slot and properly build their characters.

Your "proper" isn't everyone's.

[Septipheran]

5 minutes ago, SwitchFade said:

They're not trash, that's factually inaccurate. A lvl 30 toon with lvl 30 io's or lvl 30 SOs is functionally the same.

 

You're kind of now just arguing from your own opinion, regardless of facts.

By level 30, you should have your LOTG's, miracle uniques, steadfast/glad armor/shield wall 3%'s slotted, etc.

 

Why would we want to create new systems that further encourage the weakest members of the playerbase to be unable to keep up with their peers?

Edited April 6, 2020 by Septipheran

[SwitchFade]

Just now, Septipheran said:

By level 30, you should have your LOTG's, miracle uniques, steadfast/glad armor/shield wall 3%'s slotted, etc. Why would we want to create new systems that further encourage the weakest members of the playerbase to be unable to keep up with their peers?

Now you're just dictating to everyone how to play. Terms like "should" and "proper" are very pointed. Be careful there, because the game is designed to allow people, within reason of game balance, to play how they wish.

 

Want 6 slot brawl? Go for it.

 

Want to take only pool powers? Have at it!

 

Want to use only SOs? Get on it!

 

Your idea of how anyone should slot is fine, but be aware it's an opinion many disagree with.

[Septipheran]

2 minutes ago, SwitchFade said:

Now you're just dictating to everyone how to play. Terms like "should" and "proper" are very pointed. Be careful there, because the game is designed to allow people, within reason of game balance, to play how they wish.

 

Want 6 slot brawl? Go for it.

 

Want to take only pool powers? Have at it!

 

Want to use only SOs? Get on it!

 

Your idea of how anyone should slot is fine, but be aware it's an opinion many disagree with.

And you've done a great job of illustrating my point. I wasn't talking about perma-hasten, I wasn't talking about softcapping anything. I was talking about the most basic IO's in the game. And the fact that it's socially acceptable in COH to act like the most fundamental IO's are anything but, is exactly the player mentality issue I'm referring to. Thank you for being such a solid unwilling guinea pig. This really worked out.

[SwitchFade]

Just now, Septipheran said:

And you've done a great job of illustrating my point. I wasn't talking about perma-hasten, I wasn't talking about softcapping anything. I was talking about the most basic IO's in the game. And the fact that it's socially acceptable in COH to act like the most fundamental IO's are anything but, is exactly the player mentality issue I'm referring to. Thank you for being such a solid unwilling guinea pig. This really worked out.

You're resigned to arguing straw men here.

 

You just made up a bunch of things, assigned them to me and then attacked them.

 

Your opinion about SOs is understood, many disagree and you've presented no facts supporting your claim.

 

You made a point that SOs should be removed, without evidence, that I refuted. If you're of a mind that being incorrect is somehow proving your point, more power to you.

[EmperorSteele]

Sep, dude...

I'm all for kiting out my builds to the max, but your elitist "everyone should learn how to use the endgame system" attitude is NOT helpful. I might spend hours and days working out how to get that extra 1% recharge or defense, but that doesn't mean everyone else has to. If someone wants to use SOs, LET them. This game is centered around player CHOICE. Do you choose to enhance your character with SOs, or IOs, or Sets? It's up to each player to decide that for themselves, it's NOT up to YOU to dictate how other people play.

 

Again, in case you're getting defensive, it's NOT up to YOU to dictate how other people play.

And also, if we start balancing things around IOs, then guess what, your 1 billion inf build is no longer all that powerful. And it would be even more punishing to casual players who can't work around getting debuffed into next week because enemies are designed to counter people with Defcap and permahasten. Though, I do kinda agree that maybe late-game balance should at least consider that basic level 50 IOs exist and are slotted by a good number of people.

And yeah, I wish more people took the game "seriously" and didn't bring down the whole team by not being able to clear a +4/x8 map by themselves (friggin noobs), but, that's not up to me, and again,  it's NOT up to YOU to dictate how other people play.

 

And before you respond, take a deep breath, count to ten, and realize that continuing this argument won't make you "right" and everyone else "wrong". If you want to be helpful, go test the changes they've proposed and give objective feedback.

[Number Six]

6 hours ago, Peerless Girl said:

I remember the old days of "Ok so, everyone take a break so we can all go level up and green out our SOs, then we'll pick this back up in say 30 minutes? Ok cool!" I do not miss those. I do worry that just having them purchaseable from the enhancement screen will make most of the game vendors pointless. (I do miss the old good feeling you got unlocking your Origin-specific store contact back in the day).

The upgrade screen only saves you from having to run back and manually buy a bunch of replacements. You do still need to visit stores to fill new slots you get at those levels, unless you're a master planner and carry around full trays for 20 levels at a time.

 

That is one advantage that generic IOs still have* -- you can buy them from just about anywhere with /ah. I almost wish Paragon had never put that in, but between that and emailable items, that ship sailed long ago.

 

* Technically you could buy SOs off the market too, but the supply isn't really there.

[Riverdusk]

1 hour ago, Septipheran said:

My point is that the devs are wasting precious development resources on optimizing and improving gray-con throwaway gear. It's a waste of their time and everyone else's. 

 

8 hours ago, Number Six said:

The biggest problems this change (which incidentally required very little developer time and is something that could be slipped in between larger updates) 

 

 

Literally said it doesn't take much at all in the way of resources and some of us very much appreciate the changes.

[Abraxus]

Still having SOs in the game allows casual players to do what they like, without the necessity of the level of planning, shopping, and spending that a kitted our toon requires.  They can play perfectly fine that way, and be happy doing so.  If they want a little more, they can do crafted enhancements for that 42% goodness.  If they wish to go beyond that, they have that choice as well.  Three levels of complexity, all perfectly valid, and satisfying to those that use them.  That kind of choice is one of the things that makes this game as special as it is.  These changes make it possible to more easily do what we have done all along.  That is a good thing.  A QoL change that adds to the others already there, which combine to make it better than it was on live IMHO.  

[Paradox Fate]

2 hours ago, Septipheran said:

By level 30, you should have your LOTG's, miracle uniques, steadfast/glad armor/shield wall 3%'s slotted, etc.

 

Why would we want to create new systems that further encourage the weakest members of the playerbase to be unable to keep up with their peers?

 

Any uniques than perhaps steadfast/zephyr -KB are optional for most AT's until 50.

Sure, they are good to have when you have the wallet to support this, but many won't commit to that until they know if the character with the power combo 'sticks' for them.

Edited April 6, 2020 by Paradox Fate

[Septipheran]

18 minutes ago, Paradox Fate said:

 

Any uniques than perhaps steadfast/zephyr -KB are optional for most AT's until 50.

Sure, they are good to have when you have the wallet to support this, but many won't commit to that until they know if the character with the power combo 'sticks' for them.

Uhh, you can unslot and email all enhancements in the game. So maybe spend 30 minutes on the market to buy level up gear that you can email to your alts.

[Paradox Fate]

8 minutes ago, Septipheran said:

Uhh, you can unslot and email all enhancements in the game. So maybe spend 30 minutes on the market to buy level up gear that you can email to your alts.

Unslotting them requires merits or money. And the enhancements/their recipes need to be bought and/or crafted, of which most players don't commit to for the reason I posted above.

 

Too much of a investment for some alt that might not survive the trip to 50. Slap a Zephyr at the travel power of your choice and be done with it.

IO's are fine starting at 22, and before that you can just use Offense/Defense/Survival Amps that cost you 1k/hour when hitting the vendor at level 1.

Edited April 6, 2020 by Paradox Fate

[Septipheran]

8 minutes ago, Paradox Fate said:

Unslotting them requires merits or money. And the enhancements/their recipes need to be bought and/or crafted, of which most players don't commit to for the reason I posted above.

 

Too much of a investment for some alt that might not survive the trip to 50. Slap a Zephyr at the travel power of your choice and be done with it.

IO's are fine starting at 22, and before that you can just use Offense/Defense/Survival Amps that cost you 1k/hour when hitting the vendor at level 1.

If I donate 100 mil inf to each of you, or whatever it is that you consider "a lot," can you all just get together and make a joint promise to stop this ridiculousness? You're squabbling over rounding errors. It's just sad at this point. 

[Greycat]

5 hours ago, Septipheran said:

IO's in COH *are* the end game gear. The game is already laughably easy, with people soloing Incarnate trials and MoTF badges.

 

The reason why the game is so easy? Forum warriors have been spouting out that "gAmE iS BaLaNcED aRoUND SO's" nonsense for years.  

 

If IO's shouldn't be in the game, just take them out. To develop content as you're implying with the idea that the best gear in the game doesn't exist, is willful ignorance. And it absolutely blows my mind that such a big portion of the playerbase advocates for never learning how to properly build characters. 

Aren't you just pleasant.

 

"Forum warriors" (see: people who have been around the game since live) have been "spouting nonsense" (see: repeating exactly what the dev team said) because it's true.

 

And nowhere did I say "IOs shouldn't be in the game." Stop setting up strawmen. As far as "properly building?" Play 1-50 with SOs to prove to me you know your powersets without capped-this, perma-that. Do it multiple times. And handle any 1-50 content in the game. I know *I* can do it. Because I have (and still do.) Playing with SOs (or common IOs, if you just want to do that and ignore the SO upgrades every few levels, functionally the same) is still "properly building" characters.

 

I find it funny that you call the content laughably easy while insisting you apparently need IOs (given your "proper build" description.) Give yourself a challenge and play without them.

[Greycat]

4 hours ago, Septipheran said:

It would probably be in the best interests of the game to simply remove all non-IO's, so we don't have to continue to deal with the portion of the population who aggresively defend their right to never learn the IO system. Either the IO system is a part of the game, or it isn't. The issue is that we have a substantial chunk of the posters here who think it's okay to simply not learn the end game gearing system- In the case of COH, the end game gearing system is the IO system.

 

But the positive side of that is IO's are available as soon as level 10. They have plenty of time to learn. Maybe instead of giving them more excuses to not learn, we should be removing the barriers, ie: take non-IO's out of the game. Have generic's drop in their place.  You made a point about longevity and player retention, and I agree that should be a priority. Ignoring end-game gear is not a good way to get to that point...

More assumptions and more assumptions.

 

People don't learn the market either, yet it's part of the game. It shouldn't be removed.

 

People don't learn the PVP system, yet it's part of the game. It shouldn't be removed.

 

IOs? Guess what, *They're not needed for anything.* They are an *optional* component. They should also not be removed - but just like the other two systems, shouldn't be required. It's a simple concept. And part of the strength of COH, part of what people love about it, is the option to play how they want.

Edited April 6, 2020 by Greycat