Flag Emblems

[ZeeHero]

I would really like basic flag emblems for common nations at least, like the UK, USA, France, and so forth.

 

My hero Black Avalon could really use a proper union jack emblem.

[RogerWilco]

I'm not sure the game engine would be able to handle what would be required.

 

Because it would need to be all flags, otherwise you're discriminating.

I think the game engine would be able to handle that, but what we've seen with Unicode, that's not really where these things stop.

How about England or Wales or Scotland?

The Soviet Union, Imperial Germany, Imperial China, Roman/Byzantine Empire, etc.

 

The same can be said about other "missing" emblems.

 

It needs a different kind of game engine, where players can upload images or make designs in game. But with the base building in this game, it would get really out of hand and become impossible to manage for the server.

 

The request sounds easy, but on a political and technical and human level, it is not.

[Solarverse]

41 minutes ago, RogerWilco said:

Because it would need to be all flags, otherwise you're discriminating.

 

 

The request sounds easy, but on a political and technical and human level, it is not.

I disagree. I do not think anyone would feel discriminated against. You would start with the major countries and start there. Over a long stretch of time, some of the smaller countries could be added until the Devs felt that they had a sufficient amount of Flags. I don't think people who live in Nauru or Gambia are going to have any fits over their flags not being represented. If they wish it so, they can request it here. Honestly, I think the only people who would be offended are the social justice warriors who like to speak for others instead of letting others speak for themselves. However, even in this case, I think the Social Justice Warriors have better sense than this. They seem to pick their battles a little better than that.

[0th Power]

Put up a poll and top 5 get added. More to follow soon(tm).

[MunkiLord]

2 hours ago, RogerWilco said:

It needs a different kind of game engine, where players can upload images or make designs in game. But with the base building in this game, it would get really out of hand and become impossible to manage for the server.

Gamers, like people in general, have demonstrated over the last few decades that this would be a terrible idea. I know this community likes to pat itself on the back, but the CoH players are no different than the players of WoW, Counter Strike, etc.

[MTeague]

I think the harder part would be flags that need three or more colors. CoH typically only does two-color costume pieces.

also, most costume pieces can be re-recolored.

 

if it's a costume piece like any other, then don't be offended if the Red, White, and Blue suddenly ends up being Pink, Cream, and Aqua for someone's chest emblem.

Because sight unseen, SOMEONE will do it. Sure as the sun will rise in the east.

Personally I wouldn't have a problem with that, but statistically speaking, there will be X many who flip at the sight of it.

[Solarverse]

15 minutes ago, MTeague said:

Personally I wouldn't have a problem with that, but statistically speaking, there will be X many who flip at the sight of it.

In a world where so many people take offense to almost anything imaginable??? Nooooo, you don't say! I would have never thought!   😄

[ShardWarrior]

14 hours ago, RogerWilco said:

I'm not sure the game engine would be able to handle what would be required.

Why?  It already has quite a lot of various symbols available.  Flags are no different.

[RogerWilco]

On 6/2/2020 at 1:32 AM, Solarverse said:

I disagree. I do not think anyone would feel discriminated against. You would start with the major countries and start there. Over a long stretch of time, some of the smaller countries could be added until the Devs felt that they had a sufficient amount of Flags.

I am from a smaller country.

I have led a World of Warcraft guild with close to 300 people, from at least 20 countries.

And few things get people riled up as much as national symbols.

Especially in the Balkans, but in Europe in general.

(trying to get people from Serbia, Macedonia and Greece to get along was interesting especially around the time Kosovo declared independence)

 

Secondly, I would not want this decided by a voting system, as the larger countries have enough advantage as it is already.

You very quickly end up with a discussion on which flags are "significant enough" to be represented. I would not want a discussion on where my small country falls on that scale.

It's like asking which US states are "significant enough" to be represented in the US senate. And does Puerto Rico count because it's the 31st largest "state" of the USA by population?

 

In other words, I would feel discriminated against, if the flag of my country was not included, but my main point is that it is a subject that can inflame tensions very easily.

 

Something like this might be an interesting read on the subject: https://blog.emojipedia.org/emoji-flags-explained/

Some of the lists of flags they mention are now up to over 3000 flags. Even for CoH standards that would be a long list to scroll through.

 

On 6/2/2020 at 2:59 AM, MunkiLord said:

Gamers, like people in general, have demonstrated over the last few decades that this would be a terrible idea. I know this community likes to pat itself on the back, but the CoH players are no different than the players of WoW, Counter Strike, etc.

Very true. You easily go into the 4chan direction.

 

This might seem a simple discussion from starts-n-stripes country, but is a sensitive subject in a lot of other places.

[Solarverse]

5 hours ago, RogerWilco said:

I am from a smaller country.

I have led a World of Warcraft guild with close to 300 people, from at least 20 countries.

And few things get people riled up as much as national symbols.

Especially in the Balkans, but in Europe in general.

(trying to get people from Serbia, Macedonia and Greece to get along was interesting especially around the time Kosovo declared independence)

 

Secondly, I would not want this decided by a voting system, as the larger countries have enough advantage as it is already.

You very quickly end up with a discussion on which flags are "significant enough" to be represented. I would not want a discussion on where my small country falls on that scale.

It's like asking which US states are "significant enough" to be represented in the US senate. And does Puerto Rico count because it's the 31st largest "state" of the USA by population?

 

In other words, I would feel discriminated against, if the flag of my country was not included, but my main point is that it is a subject that can inflame tensions very easily.

 

Something like this might be an interesting read on the subject: https://blog.emojipedia.org/emoji-flags-explained/

Some of the lists of flags they mention are now up to over 3000 flags. Even for CoH standards that would be a long list to scroll through.

 

Very true. You easily go into the 4chan direction.

 

This might seem a simple discussion from starts-n-stripes country, but is a sensitive subject in a lot of other places.

So we just don't do any flags, is that it? Like I said before, if somebody from a smaller country wanted their flag represented, they would post it here. In other words, I covered this.

[RogerWilco]

58 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

So we just don't do any flags, is that it? Like I said before, if somebody from a smaller country wanted their flag represented, they would post it here. In other words, I covered this.

I think that's too naive an approach. Will you allow all flags that get requested? Will you only allow the flags of UN members? Will you allow the flags of countries or states that are not nations?

 

You can say "I'll handle that on a case-by-case basis", but then who are you to judge this?

 

How about the flag of Taiwan, or Kosovo, or England, or Scotland, or Isle of Man, or Catalonia, or Texas, or Kurdistan, or Northern Cyprus, or Palestine, or the Soviet Union, or Nazi Germany, or the Confederate States of America ?

 

Which ones would you allow, and which ones not, and based on what criteria?

 

You might not get requests for all of these, but are almost certain to get requests for some of these.

Edited June 5, 2020 by RogerWilco

[Solarverse]

17 minutes ago, RogerWilco said:

I think that's too naive an approach. Will you allow all flags that get requested? Will you only allow the flags of UN members? Will you allow the flags of countries or states that are not nations?

 

You can say "I'll handle that on a case-by-case basis", but then who are you to judge this?

 

How about the flag of Taiwan, or Kosovo, or England, or Scotland, or Isle of Man, or Catalonia, or Texas, or Kurdistan, or Northern Cyprus, or Palestine, or the Soviet Union, or Nazi Germany, or the Confederate States of America ?

 

Which ones would you allow, and which ones not, and based on what criteria?

 

You might not get requests for all of these, but are almost certain to get requests for some of these.

Well, for starters, it would probably be extremely helpful if a Dev chimed in at some point and gave everyone an idea of how difficult or easy it would be to implement flag emblems. If it's something that would be relatively easy, then I would say that the "case by case" basis would be a realistic view point. However, if they would be difficult to implement, then obviously we would just drop the whole idea and shake on it.  🙂

[MunkiLord]

14 hours ago, RogerWilco said:

I think that's too naive an approach. Will you allow all flags that get requested? Will you only allow the flags of UN members? Will you allow the flags of countries or states that are not nations?

 

You can say "I'll handle that on a case-by-case basis", but then who are you to judge this?

 

How about the flag of Taiwan, or Kosovo, or England, or Scotland, or Isle of Man, or Catalonia, or Texas, or Kurdistan, or Northern Cyprus, or Palestine, or the Soviet Union, or Nazi Germany, or the Confederate States of America ?

 

Which ones would you allow, and which ones not, and based on what criteria?

 

You might not get requests for all of these, but are almost certain to get requests for some of these.

This is a good point, we all know some loser would want to use the confederate flag and then would cry when told no.

Edited June 6, 2020 by MunkiLord

[ImpousVileTerror]

As I understand it, the devkit tools for 3D assets are part of the whole reason Homecoming is trying to pursue the legitimacy path with ncsoft.  Unless I've been misinformed, this game uses proprietary 3D files, and reverse engineering them has been one of the most significant hurdles to OuroDev's efforts.

So . . . yeah.  This is kind of off the shelf for the time being, but discussions on the subject are, of course, certainly still valid.  I happen to agree with Wilco's assessment overall.   It's a potential can of worms that could see considerable backlash.  Maybe it would be a non-issue, and maybe people would be mature about it overall . . . but there are a lot of bits of world history which have resulted in a lot of baaaaaaad blood around the globe.

[Solarverse]

4 hours ago, ImpousVileTerror said:

As I understand it, the devkit tools for 3D assets are part of the whole reason Homecoming is trying to pursue the legitimacy path with ncsoft.  Unless I've been misinformed, this game uses proprietary 3D files, and reverse engineering them has been one of the most significant hurdles to OuroDev's efforts.

So . . . yeah.  This is kind of off the shelf for the time being, but discussions on the subject are, of course, certainly still valid.  I happen to agree with Wilco's assessment overall.   It's a potential can of worms that could see considerable backlash.  Maybe it would be a non-issue, and maybe people would be mature about it overall . . . but there are a lot of bits of world history which have resulted in a lot of baaaaaaad blood around the globe.

Most flags consist of straight lines of various colors, some have symbols in them that we pretty much already have in game. It would be great if we could use some simple tools to create our own flag emblems. If that kind of a tool could be created (if even possible or worth the time to create) that would end a lot of problems. I'm sure not every flag would be created perfectly, but even if I could create a red and white stripe flag with a blue box with a single star in the center of it, I would be happy...so as long as everyone can create a flag that is at least close to what their country has, I think everyone could be happy with that. Far fetched I'm sure, but worth tossing the idea around.

[RogerWilco]

On 6/7/2020 at 7:08 AM, Solarverse said:

Most flags consist of straight lines of various colors, some have symbols in them that we pretty much already have in game. It would be great if we could use some simple tools to create our own flag emblems. If that kind of a tool could be created (if even possible or worth the time to create) that would end a lot of problems. I'm sure not every flag would be created perfectly, but even if I could create a red and white stripe flag with a blue box with a single star in the center of it, I would be happy...so as long as everyone can create a flag that is at least close to what their country has, I think everyone could be happy with that. Far fetched I'm sure, but worth tossing the idea around.

Who needs stars? 😉

I"m fine with just three horizontal bands in colours I can pick.

I suppose you could add three vertical bands, those seem to be quite common as well.

You could add something with a cross, that seems to be somewhat popular as well.

 

Edited June 8, 2020 by RogerWilco
Smaller picture

[RogerWilco]

On 6/6/2020 at 7:56 AM, MunkiLord said:

This is a good point, we all know some loser would want to use the confederate flag and then would cry when told no.

All of the "places" I mentioned would likely get some people riled up.

 

The big question is, which countries exist in the CoH universe?

And in Preatorian Earth?

 

I am always puzzled by what both the DCU and CoH seem to to: Fictional cities (Gotham, Metropolis, Paragon City, Galaxy City) but then real countries (often only the USA, maybe Canada and the UK). I prefer the Marvel approach, which uses mostly real places and cities, with the possible exception of Wakanda and such.

 

I think the best solution in a universe such as CoH would be to also have fictional countries. e.g. the Union of States of Columbia.

(I don't mean https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_of_Colombia).

 

Then you avoid most of the flag discussions as well.

[0th Power]

12 hours ago, RogerWilco said:

All of the "places" I mentioned would likely get some people riled up.

 

The big question is, which countries exist in the CoH universe?

And in Preatorian Earth?

 

I am always puzzled by what both the DCU and CoH seem to to: Fictional cities (Gotham, Metropolis, Paragon City, Galaxy City) but then real countries (often only the USA, maybe Canada and the UK). I prefer the Marvel approach, which uses mostly real places and cities, with the possible exception of Wakanda and such.

 

I think the best solution in a universe such as CoH would be to also have fictional countries. e.g. the Union of States of Columbia.

(I don't mean https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_of_Colombia).

 

Then you avoid most of the flag discussions as well.

Wakanda isn’t real?????

[ZeeHero]

the USA is real in COH. Real flags for major countries are a no brainer. Arguing that people from less prominent nations would be upset is ridiculous.

 

I've never seen an Israeli complain of a lack of the blue and white israeli flag in games. Never seen someone from singapore complain theres no flag from there.

 

Add the most prominent nations flags first, and add more later bit by bit, over time we'll cover most of the worlds countries.

[RogerWilco]

8 hours ago, 0th Power said:

Wakanda isn’t real?????

That's what we want them to believe.

 

The bigger question is if the Arkonids from M13 are real and have been manipulating history for the past millennia.

[RogerWilco]

8 hours ago, ZeeHero said:

the USA is real in COH. Real flags for major countries are a no brainer. Arguing that people from less prominent nations would be upset is ridiculous.

 

I've never seen an Israeli complain of a lack of the blue and white israeli flag in games. Never seen someone from singapore complain theres no flag from there.

 

Add the most prominent nations flags first, and add more later bit by bit, over time we'll cover most of the worlds countries.

Sorry, but I find this comment rather rude and inconsiderate.

If this was the argument the HC developers would use, it would upset me.

 

Your comment sounds very self-centred, in a might makes right, the small guys don't matter kind of way.

It also sounds English-centred. Have you read any Hebrew or Malay forums to check your statement? Have you considered your own bias, if you only read English websites?

Have you read the discussions on the "Pan European" ships not having their nation's flags in World of Warships? Have you read any Polish, Dutch, Swedish or Austrian forums? Have you read how XCOM2 is liked for having a larger selection of nations, but also the mods that add another 166 nations to the game?

 

This is not so different from saying that a game would support "white people" and people can ask for other "non standard skin colours" to be added, and over time we'll cover most of the world's people. Having to ask to be represented, while others are the default, is what a lot of minorities feel as discrimination.

 

This topic is nowhere near as serious as the protests going on in the USA right now, but you might want to examine your attitude and bias.

Edited June 9, 2020 by RogerWilco

[Solarverse]

2 hours ago, RogerWilco said:

Sorry, but I find this comment rather rude and inconsiderate.

If this was the argument the HC developers would use, it would upset me.

 

Your comment sounds very self-centred, in a might makes right, the small guys don't matter kind of way.

It also sounds English-centred. Have you read any Hebrew or Malay forums to check your statement? Have you considered your own bias, if you only read English websites?

Have you read the discussions on the "Pan European" ships not having their nation's flags in World of Warships? Have you read any Polish, Dutch, Swedish or Austrian forums? Have you read how XCOM2 is liked for having a larger selection of nations, but also the mods that add another 166 nations to the game?

 

This is not so different from saying that a game would support "white people" and people can ask for other "non standard skin colours" to be added, and over time we'll cover most of the world's people. Having to ask to be represented, while others are the default, is what a lot of minorities feel as discrimination.

 

This topic is nowhere near as serious as the protests going on in the USA right now, but you might want to examine your attitude and bias.

If you check back some, the current conversation leads to, "perhaps if we were given a tool to design our own flags."

 

This opens the door to include anyone's flag and shuts down anything PC, anti-PC or political in general.

 

 

 

[ImpousVileTerror]

If we introduce such a tool, who curates and moderates it?  How many layers of review does it have to prevent someone from uploading something like a drawing of genitalia?

At the current server population, I could see it already being a serious pain in the ass for an unpaid position.  And considering how cagey the Homecoming Team has been to induct new members over the past year, do we expect that they'll allow such curation to fall in to the hands of just any volunteer who wants to step up?

[Solarverse]

2 minutes ago, ImpousVileTerror said:

If we introduce such a tool, who curates and moderates it?  How many layers of review does it have to prevent someone from uploading something like a drawing of genitalia?

At the current server population, I could see it already being a serious pain in the ass for an unpaid position.  And considering how cagey the Homecoming Team has been to induct new members over the past year, do we expect that they'll allow such curation to fall in to the hands of just any volunteer who wants to step up?

Like I said earlier, most flags consist of straight lines. Any symbols inside of them would be rescaled symbols of what we already have. Straight lines and symbols in game make it pretty cut and dry.

[ZacKing]

On ‎6‎/‎1‎/‎2020 at 7:32 PM, Solarverse said:

I disagree. I do not think anyone would feel discriminated against. You would start with the major countries and start there. Over a long stretch of time, some of the smaller countries could be added until the Devs felt that they had a sufficient amount of Flags. I don't think people who live in Nauru or Gambia are going to have any fits over their flags not being represented. If they wish it so, they can request it here. Honestly, I think the only people who would be offended are the social justice warriors who like to speak for others instead of letting others speak for themselves. However, even in this case, I think the Social Justice Warriors have better sense than this. They seem to pick their battles a little better than that.

agreed.  let's leave the SJW stuff at the door please.  

 

On ‎6‎/‎9‎/‎2020 at 9:13 AM, ImpousVileTerror said:

How many layers of review does it have to prevent someone from uploading something like a drawing of genitalia?

really?  Like how many legit flags of countries out there have drawing of someones genitals on it?