It's time to recognize Domination is bad.

[Galaxy Brain]

1 minute ago, tidge said:

To me, this is the feel of advancement for this AT. I don't want to be 'given' Permadom at low levels, especially not at the price of having to radically change play styles for all content in the game. I can totally understand why folks want this sooner than later, but this suggestion feels like a solution in search of a problem.

You still would not be able to get permadom at low level, but you would be able to get closer and closer to it as you level up and slot those enhancements in a much smoother scale.

 

1 minute ago, tidge said:

 

For the record: I don't like the idea of having to 'rebuild a bar' while Domination is active. It simply feels like trying to map the Fury mechanic from Brutes onto a different AT.

You already have to build up domination to start anyways, this would be no different aside from how you can no longer afk for 90 sec and still have perma dom. Filling the bar within 90 seconds of playing is something youd do by just putting your T1 immobilize on auto and still have time left over.

[Galaxy Brain]

3 minutes ago, Zeraphia said:

This sounds nice and dandy but... what about if you are traveling to a mission and lose Domination because you literally can't keep it active?

 

There are a number of instances where you're also just waiting for a team/league to fill, and now you lost domination again...

 

It sounds great in theory, but I'd still detest this in reality in a lot of realistic situations.

Then when the mission begins you gain it back in that 1st mob and steamroll again.

[tidge]

7 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

You already have to build up domination to start anyways, this would be no different aside from how you can no longer afk for 90 sec and still have perma dom. Filling the bar within 90 seconds of playing is something youd do by just putting your T1 immobilize on auto and still have time left over.

Building up to Domination is already a PITA at low levels. At high levels, it is very common to be facing large groups of opponents who utilize stuns, holds, etc.  and quite frankly the Mez protection from Domination is at least as important as the +Magnitude on controls... and more so than the Endurance refill (on some builds). In my mind that is the entire motivation to achieve permadom.

 

It's not "AFK for 90 secs", under this proposal it will crash if not "scrambling to attack everything in sight".  That is the deal-breaker for me.  I don't want to adopt a Brute style of play to be permadom, at any level. I think it might even be worse than the Brute situation, because the Domination bar only fills on making attacks and not also by being attacked (like Fury).

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

13 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Then when the mission begins you gain it back in that 1st mob and steamroll again.

Which again is way to like the brute fury mechanci, one I personally loathe and why I favor scrappers and stalkers over brutes by a large margin. How dom works is just bloody fine in my book. Like every AT a low end inf build functions but can struggle. A fine tuned bruce wayne inf build will as it rightly should utterly dominate.

 

HC has made it so very easy to deck out a build, those who continue to act like getting the inf to get 5 purple sets and all the rare sets and specials because they are too much an altaholic and cant be bothered to just perfect a toon before moving on are not going to get a lot of sympathy. High end recharge builds give up high end soft def or dmg res set focuses in a fair give and take. The less valued global recharge becomes if demands to make it not as needed to achieve the effects its favored for or neutering those effects in general mean people will just gravtitate towards those other focuses. If for example perma dom either goes away, or becomes easy to get without set bonuses then it leads to soft def being the set focus priority.

[Replacement]

11 hours ago, Greycat said:

 

And yes, I know you don't want to hear it, but a "good" dom build is one the player's enjoying. It's a game.

I'm glad you enjoy it, and I don't mind you expressing this sentiment one bit!  But consider this: what if you really liked an MMO class despite it being weak?  You would say you're having fun regardless, but I believe most players would still be happy to find it buffed.

 

Dominator is 2 classes: the weak, fun class with insanely cool flavor and abilities but the lowest survival of any AT, and the crazy powerful permadom with no true weaknesses.

 

My suggestions to the first version would only be buffs to you, and would be immensely beneficial to people who sit in the middle of the road of wanting high performance, but not at the cost of their flavor picks.

 

10 hours ago, tidge said:

I guess I was expected to get out of the thread almost immediately, 

<SNIP>

 

I understand the suggestion, but I wouldn't like it... primarily because my Dom already feels like I playing "too aggressively" with madcap clicking and circling among targets.... not because I'm trying to trigger +Recharge in attacks but because once the control slips, I'm wide open. Every once in a while I will actually pause from fighting to spawn a crafting table, travel between missions, check the AH, whatever. I like that my domination bar is sitting there ready for me to get back to business. The last thing I want is for Dominators to be more like Brutes (or Controllers).

First off, no you're not unwelcome. You don't seem to me making the point that I was outright dismissing as pride ("I like it how it is because it separates the men from the boys").

 

You are actually hitting on what I feel is the biggest - nay - only downside of my primary suggestion. It seems like you're treating Domination like a Level Up mechanism you need to partake of once per login and then you're at full strength. 

 

However, if this change were made and the binary were broken, we would become capable of discussing things like Domination bar fill/decay rate. Personally, I think it's not a bad idea to expect high end permadom builds to have to kill the first spawn of any mission without their buffs (thrive on that pain high to get yourself to the next level; whatever your fiction is). Remember also I think this would end up including a fill rate multiplier in teams to ensure you can fill it as fast as they deem balanced.

 

9 hours ago, Solarverse said:

I can't be the only player who doesn't give a shit about permadom? I play the class as it was designed. A Controller who does damage and I build that way. Dom is just a bonus. People running around with Permadom might as well have just played a Controller IMO. So honestly, I don't give a damn what they do with permadom. I don't play the class and build it around Domination.

 

Preemptive reply:

Maybe I am just "playing the class wrong" by the standards of most, but you know what? I don't give a damn. You play yours the way you want and I'll play mine the way that I want. You might think that I am playing mine wrong, but I'm not the one sacrificing the design of the class by trying to perma out my domination...

I feel like you're saying nope to my suggestion? But I can't tell because this is exactly why I want to see this changed. If you like normal Dominator, you will see huge improvements if we break this binary, and no negatives.

 

8 hours ago, Bentley Berkeley said:

But its not a uniquely huge binary. A mental 2ndary blaster with perma drain psyche vs a low recharge build is a huge gap in sustainability. a perma light form PB is hugely different then a pure SO PB. Your basically here trying to say that the baseline and the meta should not have much if any of a gap. You do not need perma domg to solo +0X1 dif. That is the baseline a AT needs to be able to solo while leveling to be viable. That is it. They dont need to be able to solo lockdown an AV, they dont need to eb able to be the single CC toon on an LGTF.  That is the perk and the reason to pursue the high end IO set builds.

 Err yes, I do think it's an unprecedented benefit. Getting permanent drain psyche is strong, but if you are one second short of it, you're still a mostly-perma drain psyche.  

 

You have no objective reason (based on your presented reasoning) to be against bringing Domination in-line.

 

Subjective reasons that may apply: 

-Don't want to rock the boat

-Not sure what the impact is on unconsidered options

 

Both of which are the Dev's job to assess. Not a reason to poo-poo the idea out of hand.

 

Quote

 If you got your way all that would lead to is making it a bigger no brainer to get soft cap def without giving up the perk of perma whatever.

It would bridge the gap, as was discussed earlier here. Those builds you're talking about sacrifice a lot of the AT, making extremely precise power purchases.

8 hours ago, Bentley Berkeley said:

stalkers ATO 

Are an abomination. A single IO to completely rebalance an AT is the subject for a different thread, however.

 

About D&D: your whole post on that was completely irrelevant. I'm glad to have a true veteran gamer among us and your credentials check out, but it has literally nothing to do with the point I was making.  The fact that you couldn't see that means I'd appreciate dropping that topic.

Edited April 16, 2020 by Replacement

[Galaxy Brain]

One thing to note @Bentley Berkeley, is that domination does not need much global recharge to become perma compared to most "needs a lot of rech" to perma powers. 

 

The fact that it only needs 123%, that every dom build can achieve this, and the benefits of doing so does lean towards ot being questionable in how there is a signficant gap between Perma and Non Perma given it's not like you actually need perma hasten to accomplish this.

 

 

@tidge, the gap in mez protection is noticable, but again that shows the gap between it being off and on all the time. I do not buy the comparison being like a brute as it is not 1:1 between "make sure you are at X meter after 90 seconds, which you build naturally by using your powers within 30 sec" and "you must ALWAYS be in combat and be the center of attention or you start losing".

Edited April 16, 2020 by Galaxy Brain

[tidge]

6 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

 

@tidge, the gap in mez protection is noticable, but again that shows the gap between it being off and on all the time. I do not buy the comparison being like a brute as it is not 1:1 between "make sure you are at X meter after 90 seconds, which you build naturally by using your powers within 30 sec" and "you must ALWAYS be in combat and be the center of attention or you start losing".

 

No matter how sincere the suggestion, I am NOT going to throw snowballs at my Fire Imps just to maintain Domination.

[Galaxy Brain]

6 minutes ago, tidge said:

No matter how sincere the suggestion, I am NOT going to throw snowballs at my Fire Imps just to maintain Domination.

I think at that point the domiantion build rate could be looked at set to set. My assumption is that as you play naturally you would be building Domination as you go and be functionally perma.

 

Not having it be "truly actually  110% perma outside of combat" is a conundrum in that it would be lost in theory too but that is sort of an X factor that should really only matter a small portion of the time (the first fight of a mission).

 

What I will say tho, is that if Domination was made more "normal" in how perma-ing it works, it opens up more tools to work with in terms of how you build and maintain it.

Edited April 16, 2020 by Galaxy Brain

[Replacement]

1 hour ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Mostly the same boat here except I do see the gap as a problem due to what I outlined in my prior post.

 

Talking about this last night, it's most comparable to end drain lol. Everyone with -End powers benefits from it sure, but the difference between sapping 7% end per hit in a fight, and being able to 1-2 punch a whole mob of their end near instantly is night and day despite being the same mechanic. 

 

What is trying to be addressed, and what should be addressed IMO, is that unlike any other power or AT you invest in the curve is not smooth and sort of coerces you into one build (recharge) to gather up massive performance shifts. 

 

I think making the curve smooth by letting you crash and rebuild Domination while active, and hell making it easier by adding a +20% rech power into secondaries or something, would go a long way towards equity for all dominators and their players.

Sigh. I really wish you had made this thread. 

18 minutes ago, tidge said:

Building up to Domination is already a PITA at low levels. At high levels, it is very common to be facing large groups of opponents who utilize stuns, holds, etc.  and quite frankly the Mez protection from Domination is at least as important as the +Magnitude on controls... and more so than the Endurance refill (on some builds). In my mind that is the entire motivation to achieve permadom.

 

It's not "AFK for 90 secs", under this proposal it will crash if not "scrambling to attack everything in sight".  That is the deal-breaker for me.  I don't want to adopt a Brute style of play to be permadom, at any level. I think it might even be worse than the Brute situation, because the Domination bar only fills on making attacks and not also by being attacked (like Fury).

I want to emphasize that if this change were made, it would add a lever for tuning performance. We could mess with the fill and decay rate, we could improve the scale of which actions contribute (like how HC recently scaled Fury generation to animation time), we could start having threads brainstorming new ways to fill the bar.  None of which is currently on the table, since any change you currently make applies to both, a very strong and a very weak version of the same AT.

[tidge]

3 minutes ago, Replacement said:

I want to emphasize that if this change were made, it would add a lever for tuning performance. We could mess with the fill and decay rate, we could improve the scale of which actions contribute (like how HC recently scaled Fury generation to animation time), we could start having threads brainstorming new ways to fill the bar.  None of which is currently on the table, since any change you currently make applies to both, a very strong and a very weak version of the same AT.

This sort of comment reinforces my opinion that the original post is looking for a problem to fix. We HAVE levers for tuning performance, but the OP implied that there was something distasteful (perhaps only in attitude) about leveraging power choices and IO slotting to achieving permadom.

 

Rather than jump immediately to "we must change the AT", why not consider alternate options. I personally don't think we need any, but if it is simply the bar you want refilled faster why not propose a new type of Inspiration that does it?

[Heraclea]

I see the OPs point.  I rolled a dominator (mind/fire), got her to level 50, and spent shedloads of merits and inf getting the character to perma-dom.  Then I almost completely lost interest.  She has never finished her incarnate unlocks.

 

My basic problem is that at max level she is nervous and distracting to play.  Perma-dom is like living on the edge of a cliff.  You can't be distracted else you get kicked back to zero, and must start over the painful process of playing very cautiously until you can hit that button once again.  Some people might enjoy that.  I do not.

 

The second problem is that the heavy reliance on specific set bonuses turns the character into a pitiful thing when exemped.  I find her seriously lacking in damage outside of perma-dom. And in weeks where the non-Shadow Shard weekly target is Synapse, she can't come. 

 

The third problem is that the control she offers isn't all that useful.  She can mass hold or confuse mobs, but that takes time, and doesn't mesh well with the favored play style.  I thought that such a character would be useful on BAFs, but everything takes too long to set up and too long to recharge.  And once she holds or controls a mob, all she can do next is plink away at them ineffectually with inadequate attacks.  Content like BAF or Hamidon also requires you to pay attention to random stuff like rings or EoE insps, all of which makes it harder to keep up permadom and actually contribute.  Games make themselves unpleasant by making you keep track of too much stuff at once, which means the dom starts with two strikes against her,  And at any rate running the BAF seems to have fallen out of fashion on Torchbearer. 

 

When I want a control heavy character I turn to an ice/plants blaster.  Three ranged single target holds, an AeE hold, and various roots and debuffs: plus blaster level damage.  This one, not the dominator, is the one I take Hami raiding.  She earns her keep; the dom does not,  I've half a mind to strip the dom and exile her to another shard.  

 

Edited April 16, 2020 by Heraclea
sp

[Seed22]

20 hours ago, Replacement said:

@Vanden Do you believe Permadom as it stands is perfect and healthy? 

(clarity edit: I mean that it exists and is unachievable without severe IOing, see below)

 

Do you think it is fine that one AT has such a huge binary in its performance, totally cut off from all but people who have mastered the system?

 

Do you think it is fine that in addition to the soft-cap struggles everyone else has, Dominators must also give up all their power and IO choices in pursuit of Global Recharge?

I've seen lots of builds cap def AND have perma dom. It's not perma dom that does it in, as the amount of recharge after hasten needed is a measly 53% through IOs to be AT perma dom. It's perma hasten that trips people up. So no, this is all kind of an overexaggeration.

[Galaxy Brain]

1 minute ago, Seed22 said:

I've seen lots of builds cap def AND have perma dom. It's not perma dom that does it in, as the amount of recharge after hasten needed is a measly 53% through IOs to be AT perma dom. It's perma hasten that trips people up. So no, this is all kind of an overexaggeration.

tbf, you need decent uptime with Hasten as well if you are using it within the 123%. 

 

[Seed22]

26 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

tbf, you need decent uptime with Hasten as well if you are using it within the 123%. 

 

That's true! but not anywhere near perma hasten. I'd say...3 slot hasten w/lv 50 rech IOs? works for me on one of my 50 doms(the others DO have perma hasten)

[KelvinKole]

Another suggestion that I can think of is to change Domination so that attacks fill the bar and controls consume the bar. Controls fired off while you have some Domination built up land as criticals. Domination would become a weaving mechanic, and as long as you're using both your primary and secondary you effectively have the same performance as permadom. 

 

Some attacks might build more than others, while some controls consume more than others, but it provides a performance reward for people who are balancing it while introducing a linear progression as your character levels up and gets more abilities. 

[tidge]

2 hours ago, Heraclea said:

I rolled a dominator (mind/fire)....

 

...The second problem is that the heavy reliance on specific set bonuses turns the character into a pitiful thing when exemped.  I find her seriously lacking in damage outside of perma-dom. And in weeks where the non-Shadow Shard weekly target is Synapse, she can't come.

 

Spoilers: The Clockwork have a special weakness that belies their origin.

[Galaxy Brain]

10 minutes ago, Seed22 said:

That's true! but not anywhere near perma hasten. I'd say...3 slot hasten w/lv 50 rech IOs? works for me on one of my 50 doms(the others DO have perma hasten)

Lets find out 🙂

 

With 3 lvl 50 IO's hasten recharges in 226s (99.08% vs 450 = 226.04). It's duration is 120s, so it's down for 106.04s. This is roughly an uptime of 53.09%.

 

The weird thing to factor in is that it also provides 70% rech for 120s, So, if I napkin math this correctly...

 

1 + .7 (Hasten) + .9908 (IOs) = 2.6908

450 / 2.6908 = 167.24s for 120s

167.24 - 120 = 47.24s remaining

226.04  / 167.24 = 1.35 difference in magnitude

47.24 * 1.35 = 63.85s remaining

 

So, with  3 IO's we should see Hasten Up for 120s, and Hasten Down for 63.85s (Uptime = 65.27%)

 

 

Domination recharges in 200s, and is up for 90s. Lets say you click them both at the same time (essentially at the same time ignoring the activation times for right now)

 

200 / 1.7 = 117.65s

117.65 - 120 = -2.35s (yay!). Domination should recharge within the time Hasten is active

 

117.65 - 90 = 27.65 (boo!). Unfortunately, you have nearly 30s downtime where you need to build up Dom and click it again.

 

So, say within the 27.65 sec you build up Meter again and click Domination as soon as it recharges. You get ~ 2.35 seconds of 70% rech, wait 63.85s, then get 70% again for the remainder.

 

200 - 63.85 = 136.15s where Hasten is applied, total

200/136.15 = 1.47

1.47 * 117.65 = 172.95 total time

172.95 - 90 = 82.95s downtime

 

At least iirc, as the alternating durations and recharge boosts are funky to work with, but you'd sorta rinse and repeat this since the two powers are uneven.

 

 

Lets add 37.5% global recharge from LotG's into the mix:

 

1 + .7 (Hasten) + .9908 (IOs) + .375 (LotG) = 3.0658

450 / 3.0658 = 146.78 for 120s

146.78 - 120 = 26.78s remaining

 

450/2.3658 = 190.21 (IO's + LotG)

190.21  / 146.78 = 1.3 difference in magnitude

26.78 * 1.3 = 34.81s remaining (uptime = 77.51%)

 

 

Click both at the same time again:

 

200 / 2.075 = 96.39s

96.39-120 = -23.61s, more uptime for Hasten while you rebuild Dom

 

96.39-90= 6.39s, just short.... but, in this case we have to rebuild Domination. Lets assume we can rebuild in the same 27.65s as before.

27.65-6.39 = 21.26s downtime before you can click Domination again. (Domination recharges 22% faster in this case, but the actual downtime is 3.33x longer than it "should" be)

 

96.39+21.26 = 117.65... which essentially brings us back up to the loop where we are wonky with recharges / etc.

 

 

Ok, one more try with 53% global recharge!

 

Hasten Downtime = 25.24s (82.62% uptime)

 

Domination recharge with Hasten = 89.69! Perma!!!! 😄 

 

89.69 - 120 = -30.31s

89.69 - 30.31 = 59.38 remaining when Hasten drops. Hasten will be down for 25.24s out of this time. 

 

200/1.53 = 130.72s

130.72/89.69 = 1.46 difference in magnitude

 

59.38*1.46 = 86.69s rech when hasten drops, at least for 25.24s

86.69 - 25.24 = 61.45s when Hasten comes back up

61.45/1.46 = 42.09s rech with hasten up again

 

So, with the second application we have:

30.31s duration when hasten drops + 25.24s of hasten being down = 55.55s into Dom's duration

 

90 - 55.55 = 34.45s remaining

 

42.09s rech - 34.45s duration = 7.64s overlap where Domination is crashed.

Assuming 27.65s build time:  27.65-7.64 = 20.01s downtime till next Domination

 

That gap where you have to rebuild Domination again makes you continue to have LARGE gaps between applications until you suddenly do not need to anymore, even with 5 LotG's + 15.5% IO bonuses.

 

It is very close here, but the gap between Hastens + Dominations + Needing to build Domination still makes this clunky 😞
 

 

[BrandX]

Why not just turn it into a toggle?  .78 End/Sec, same as Focused Accuracy.

 

Yes, you're then (likely) building for Endurance sustainability, but many ways one can go about that.  Some may even forgo some of the leadership toggles, to make room for the Domination toggle.

 

Not that I'm against how it is now, but if one wanted to change it, a toggle that one has to build towards keeping active when solo is still on them, while many would be able to keep it sustainable just by being on a team with any support that gives +END REC

[Galaxy Brain]

13 minutes ago, BrandX said:

Why not just turn it into a toggle?  .78 End/Sec, same as Focused Accuracy.

 

Yes, you're then (likely) building for Endurance sustainability, but many ways one can go about that.  Some may even forgo some of the leadership toggles, to make room for the Domination toggle.

 

Not that I'm against how it is now, but if one wanted to change it, a toggle that one has to build towards keeping active when solo is still on them, while many would be able to keep it sustainable just by being on a team with any support that gives +END REC

One of my initial thoughts, and IIRC somebody mentioned it on an earlier page, would be that Domination is a toggle that costs (DomMeter)/Sec.

 

You build DomMeter by playing normally, but it does not drain normally. It only drains if you have Domination active, in which case it drains at either a steady rate per second, or you use Meter instead of Endurance.

 

That is super-duper Cottagy tho and would make people flip.

Edited April 16, 2020 by Galaxy Brain

[BrandX]

Just now, Galaxy Brain said:

One of my initial thoughts, and IIRC somebody mentioned it on an earlier page, would be that Domination is a toggle that costs (DomMeter)/Sec.

 

You build DomMeter by playing normally, but it does not drain normally. It only drains if you have Domination active, in which case it drains at either a steady rate per second, or you use Meter instead of Endurance.

 

Yeah, I did see that, but my idea of just using END, keeps it so people would have to build for keeping it active 24/7, team with the right support to keep it active 24/7, or just not worry about keeping it active 24/7 and use it as needed.

[Infinitum]

20 hours ago, Replacement said:

 

Quotes in full if you're going to try to sensationalize me, please.

 

It was said in jest for this context but, take that entire quote and drop it into literally any situation in real life, and yes, I will back it 100%.

What if they dont deserve their lives improved at the expense of decent people who dont deserve stuff taken away?

 

Its all subjective.

[Heraclea]

1 hour ago, tidge said:

Spoilers: The Clockwork have a special weakness that belies their origin.

Still ain't going to have perma-dom at level 20, which was the one point of the build and IO strategy.  And perhaps the bigger issue is that making mobs rooted and confused has very little value in ordinary team play.,  It's still worse on a character that outputs very little direct damage on a lowbie TF full of defeat-alls. 

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

1 hour ago, Heraclea said:

Still ain't going to have perma-dom at level 20, which was the one point of the build and IO strategy.  And perhaps the bigger issue is that making mobs rooted and confused has very little value in ordinary team play.,  It's still worse on a character that outputs very little direct damage on a lowbie TF full of defeat-alls. 

Synapse exemps one to lvl 20, taht means attuned LOTGs will still work due to the 5 level grace. Purple sets work no matter how low you exemp. One can grab the recharge bonus of 20% from base empowerment to help fill any loss. I do not lose my perma drain psyche because of such things at that level and love running synapse. Not every build is good for exemping but blasters and doms ime do damn fine exemped down pretty low as do stalkers( fyi synapse is very easy to solo on all sorts of stalkers. Bring the right tool for the right job I say. Sands of mu and a staff plus plasmatic taser are all handy tools when exemping low to help augment dps. Also grenades, lots of grenades.

[ScarySai]

Going to give this one a hard no.

 

Domination is fine as a ridiculously powerful ability. People can build it to be perma and that's incredibly rewarding.

 

IOs are more accessible than they have ever been. 

 

Don't fix what isn't broken.

Edited April 16, 2020 by ScarySai

[Noyjitat]

About the only thing I could agree to would be making domination last a bit longer and even then I dont think it needs to be changed. All my doms have perma dom + soft capped ranged defense before hasten is even turned on and I was able to meet my goals for the character. 
 

control it, kick its ass.

 

and quit comparing controllers to dominators. A controller is supposed to control most, while provide buffs and debuff, support and some damage while the pet or team mates finish it off. Two entirely different characters. 
 

both when built right are able to take point for the team in most situations but they are certainly different characters.

 

in the end I dont think anything needs to

change here. You should be expected to invest in the character with more than the cheapest ios if you want perma

dom.