Buff Titan Weapons Appropriately

[Zeraphia]

So, this is not meant to be a "buff" in the way the title would probably be interpreted as, this is moreso a "buff" to make the set more user-friendly. What do I mean by this? It's no secret Titan Weapons is an outlier in terms of damage, that's very clear, I don't think I need to point to evidence that it is an over-performer in terms of damage.

 

That said, what I mean by this is that I think Titan Weapons if it was changed to deliver less damage, should be more user-friendly. This set deals with a very annoying momentum mechanic that could be drastically reworked/reduced, as to what end, I don't know. I'd be very willing to trade in the DPS for user-friendliness at this point with this set. Also, it comes with the highest end/sec pricetag of any other set, it dramatically overspends for its endurance consumptions, something that I think should be reworked and factored in. 

 

Further, I think that there should be different animations to this set. A lot of people do not like the "stabbing" motion in Rend Armor nor do they find with the set that it makes sense. I think that alternate animations for this set would be a great boon if it were nerfed in terms of damage as I predict it possibly might be. 

 

The bottom line with this is, I do agree that its damage is very high and too much honestly of an outlier to ignore. That said, if it does get nerfed, I want it to be a playable set regardless if it ends up still not being "top tier." If you're going to nerf and hit TW, throw it some good bones too. A nerf doesn't always have to be a total negative if you throw positives such as these suggestions at it too. Implementing these changes may make TW as a set just universally more appealing to a much wider audience of people than as it currently stands. 

 

Before it is commented, yes I am aware of how to work momentum, I'm very familiar with Titan Weapons, I have well over 100+ vet levels with it, I personally have prepared for the nerf, but if that nerf comes, I want the set to gain some positives as well, not just a total net negative. 

[nihilii]

Removing the Momentum mechanic entirely would improve the endurance/second consumption.

 

*ducks for cover*

[Galaxy Brain]

[Nanolathe]

I'd quite like a total rework of the momentum mechanic. A stacking buff that gives more bonuses the more stacks you receive, say. Thematically, the momentum you generate while swinging a heavy thing not only increases the speed and lessens the extra mechanical effort at which you can continue or speed up its arc, but it makes it harder to control. 

 

Powers that require control, and powers that benefit from being cycled between... but lock you into a specific "style" of attacks while you maintain the momentum? 

Switching styles resets your momentum stacks to zero.

[Galaxy Brain]

29 minutes ago, Zeraphia said:

A nerf doesn't always have to be a total negative

Thank you for saying this! So many people get hung up on the "Nerfed' part to not see whole-picture things.

 

Anyways, as for the premise of the thread the main issue with TW is not so much that it "costs" a lot of end, but rather it just spends it very fast. Lets look at Titan Sweep:

 

Slow Version = 

2.43 cast time, 10.50 endurance -> 4.32 End/Sec

 

Fast Version = 

1.00 cast time, 10.50 endurance -> 10.50 End/Sec (over 2x more)

 

If in momentum you swing as fast as possible you're simply spending end faster than other sets can. This is something that could definitely be explored

 

 

 

[SwitchFade]

I feel like I was just trolled. By all of you. I'm not paying to cross the bridge!

 

Also, nerf Regen.

[siolfir]

57 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Thank you for saying this! So many people get hung up on the "Nerfed' part to not see whole-picture things.

 

Anyways, as for the premise of the thread the main issue with TW is not so much that it "costs" a lot of end, but rather it just spends it very fast. Lets look at Titan Sweep:

 

Slow Version = 

2.43 cast time, 10.50 endurance -> 4.32 End/Sec

 

Fast Version = 

1.00 cast time, 10.50 endurance -> 10.50 End/Sec (over 2x more)

 

If in momentum you swing as fast as possible you're simply spending end faster than other sets can. This is something that could definitely be explored

 

 

 

The reason Titan Weapons goes through so much more endurance is because endurance cost and damage are directly proportional per the design formulas. All of the attacks hit hard, and under momentum, animate quickly. If you want to do that much damage that quickly, you pay for it. Titan Weapons already has endurance reduction and recharge reduction built into the powers.

 

For example, Defensive Sweep has a 10' radius, 120 degree arc that does scale 0.7288 damage. A power that does that damage scale to that area should have a recharge of 5.2 seconds and endurance cost of 6.14. It has an endurance cost of 5.356 - lower than it should for that much damage, so it's already getting a discount. This continues with Crushing Blow (scale 1.804, 8.78 endurance, 8 second recharge), which should be scale 1.64 and 8.528 endurance for the 8 second recharge, or a 9.025 second recharge with 9.38 endurance cost.

 

Now I have no actual knowledge of what's coming up, but my guess would be that the nerf that's likely to happen is that the endurance and recharge discounts are likely to go away, making it follow the formulas. That means that if they keep the recharge the same, the actual damage scales and endurance costs will look more like this (rounding to thousandths on damage scale and endurance cost):

 

Name	Scale	Rech	End	Radius	Arc	Old Scale	Old End Cost
Defensive Sweep	0.617	4	5.2	10'	120°	0.729	5.356
Crushing Blow	1.64	8	8.528			1.804	8.784
Titan Sweep	1.210	10	10.192	10'	120°	1.429	10.498
Follow Through	1.96	10	10.192			2.427	10.498
Rend Armor	2.92	16	15.184			3.212	15.640
Whirling Smash	0.8	14	13.52	15'		1.369	13.926
Arc of Destruction	2.198	20	18.512	10'	120°	2.596	19.067

 

Edited April 17, 2020 by siolfir
removing extra words that I forgot were there

[Laenan]

Is the "overperfomance" of the set based on SOs or IOs? I'm sure at 50, built with incarnate powers and IO sets titan weapons is amazing, but what about before all that and with just SOs?

[kenlon]

The overperformance is in comparison to other melee sets, regardless of how they're enhanced. Titan Weapons breaks the formulas that (AFAIK) every other attack set in the game follows. @Galaxy Brain did a really great write up of it in one of the beta patch discussion threads, but I can't seem to find it now.

[Galaxy Brain]

13 minutes ago, Laenan said:

Is the "overperfomance" of the set based on SOs or IOs? I'm sure at 50, built with incarnate powers and IO sets titan weapons is amazing, but what about before all that and with just SOs?

On SO's it stands out from all other Melee sets as well in standard gameplay when it comes to clear speed and safety, if you manage the end

 

[Yomo Kimyata]

I've always viewed the Momentum mechanism of TW as an "annoyance" tax and a trade-off for its higher damage.  I'd hate to see it go away.

[Naraka]

Define "user friendly".

 

Titan Weapons is quite simple to use.  It can even get momentum off of hitting corpses as well as a "free momentum" click that you probably want to recharge as quickly as possible.

 

Endurance costs are proportional to damage and recharge numbers unless the mechanic of a set is defined by reducing endurance or recharge costs.

[Galaxy Brain]

6 minutes ago, Naraka said:

Define "user friendly".

 

Titan Weapons is quite simple to use.  It can even get momentum off of hitting corpses as well as a "free momentum" click that you probably want to recharge as quickly as possible.

 

Endurance costs are proportional to damage and recharge numbers unless the mechanic of a set is defined by reducing endurance or recharge costs.

errrrr..... TW deals bonus damage per swing compared to what it should for the end costs

[Zeraphia]

46 minutes ago, Naraka said:

Define "user friendly".

 

Titan Weapons is quite simple to use.  It can even get momentum off of hitting corpses as well as a "free momentum" click that you probably want to recharge as quickly as possible.

 

Endurance costs are proportional to damage and recharge numbers unless the mechanic of a set is defined by reducing endurance or recharge costs.

Except if you're by yourself trying to kill one enemy and you whiff due to RNG, costing so much animation time in the process.

 

At lower levels, this set is very unfriendly to players. 

 

Look, you can argue this point at high levels with ageless and such and at full enemy settings, but at lower levels, with not as much to hit momentum with, the animations are really punishing. Yes, you hit hard, but you spend enormous endurance for that making TW horrible at exemping/lower content.

Edited April 18, 2020 by Zeraphia

[Naraka]

1 hour ago, Zeraphia said:

Except if you're by yourself trying to kill one enemy and you whiff due to RNG, costing so much animation time in the process.

 

At lower levels, this set is very unfriendly to players. 

 

Look, you can argue this point at high levels with ageless and such and at full enemy settings, but at lower levels, with not as much to hit momentum with, the animations are really punishing. Yes, you hit hard, but you spend enormous endurance for that making TW horrible at exemping/lower content.

"User friendly" implies complexity and function are easily graspable.

 

What you're describing is effectiveness and specifically effectiveness with regards to the power curve of the set.  Some sets are very good at lower levels but start to fall behind other sets after a certain point similarly to some sets having greater potential at high levels but mature slowly.

 

Are you saying Titans Weapons needs to have a smoother power curve?  I feel one of the difficulties the set has to deal with is very low levels which seems justified by its overall effective power, utility and mitigation.  Then what of powersets that are decent to great in the lower levels but have a more stunted performance overall in comparison?  Should we iron out all of these "discrepancies"?

[Zeraphia]

14 minutes ago, Naraka said:

"User friendly" implies complexity and function are easily graspable.

 

What you're describing is effectiveness and specifically effectiveness with regards to the power curve of the set.  Some sets are very good at lower levels but start to fall behind other sets after a certain point similarly to some sets having greater potential at high levels but mature slowly.

 

Are you saying Titans Weapons needs to have a smoother power curve?  I feel one of the difficulties the set has to deal with is very low levels which seems justified by its overall effective power, utility and mitigation.  Then what of powersets that are decent to great in the lower levels but have a more stunted performance overall in comparison?  Should we iron out all of these "discrepancies"?

I've said and address numerous times in the original post, that it will likely obviously get a damage nerf, IMO, even with all the tools it has, it is a huge turnoff for so many players because of the things I've mentioned. 

 

It is not user-friendly to a new player if you are literally gasping for endurance with a weapon super slow on its base animation without momentum, that can possibly whiff if there are not enough enemies. It feels terrible at low levels even as an experienced player using it. If at low levels, these are not "easily graspable" then I would not describe it as "user friendly" toward players. As such, I've seen several people swear off from never using it. I've also talked with many other veterans, and we have unanimously agreed Titan Weapons has a learning curve. 

 

Sure, Build Momentum bypasses that to some extent, I will grant that. But that isn't going to always be readily available at every level and every battle. 

 

Well, this is again, about Titan Weapons itself, not about the entirety of every single melee set and its applicability in lower levels. I agree with that principle, but I think this isn't exactly on-topic, this is made to throw boons to the set to make it tolerable should its damage get nerfed and now have people just delete their characters due to the frustration and animations that TW has/is. 

[Obitus]

I happen to agree that the set should have its damage potential turned down, and its animation times smoothed out somewhat - doesn't have to be an outright elimination of the Momentum mechanic, but we could shoot for a less drastic disparity between the two states.

 

Still, it's funny to think about how intolerably long TW's unbuffed animation times are, given that my first character was an MA Scrapper, whose average animation time was probably worse back at launch (woo, ~4 second Storm Kick!).  How far we've come.  And how far, frankly, we have yet to go, to correct the original developers' oversight with regard to the importance of activation times.

Edited April 18, 2020 by Obitus

[Naraka]

4 hours ago, Zeraphia said:

I've said and address numerous times in the original post, that it will likely obviously get a damage nerf, IMO, even with all the tools it has, it is a huge turnoff for so many players because of the things I've mentioned. 

 

It is not user-friendly to a new player if you are literally gasping for endurance with a weapon super slow on its base animation without momentum, that can possibly whiff if there are not enough enemies. It feels terrible at low levels even as an experienced player using it. If at low levels, these are not "easily graspable" then I would not describe it as "user friendly" toward players. As such, I've seen several people swear off from never using it. I've also talked with many other veterans, and we have unanimously agreed Titan Weapons has a learning curve. 

 

Sure, Build Momentum bypasses that to some extent, I will grant that. But that isn't going to always be readily available at every level and every battle. 

 

Well, this is again, about Titan Weapons itself, not about the entirety of every single melee set and its applicability in lower levels. I agree with that principle, but I think this isn't exactly on-topic, this is made to throw boons to the set to make it tolerable should its damage get nerfed and now have people just delete their characters due to the frustration and animations that TW has/is. 

I feel what makes Titans Weapons so effective isn't merely the damage, it's the AoE and part and parcel of removing the momentum mechanic, the set should feel slower for its AoE (since I doubt people are advocating for a reduction in AoE of the set).  Spines is also an AoE focused set (and an END hungry set) and it also performs highly on the scale...and it also has slow animation times with Throw Spines being one of its speediest attacks to help smooth it out.

 

I'm basically saying don't expect it to be all that "user friendly" (with regards to animation speed since that seems to be the crux being argued here) when changes roll out since it is an AoE intensive set.

[Galaxy Brain]

TW is fast 80% of the time

[SwitchFade]

The hare is 80% faster than the tortoise.

[Galaxy Brain]

Nah but for real, momentum let's you pull off 4 attacks usually.

 

The 1st attack is slow, the next 4 are fast, repeat. That means TW when you're in the groove is mostly a fast set. 

[Greycat]

Please don't buff titan weapons inappropriately. This is supposedly a family friendly game.

[SwitchFade]

Give Titan weapons a giant rubber chicken as a weapon choice.

 

Tyson chicken.

[Zeraphia]

20 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Nah but for real, momentum let's you pull off 4 attacks usually.

 

The 1st attack is slow, the next 4 are fast, repeat. That means TW when you're in the groove is mostly a fast set. 

Not necessarily...

 

From what I've observed so far is that it is not usually as simple as you described. By the first few swings, the mob is just dead, at high levels, literally one swing, and it is demolished except for decently resisted Lei's or if you turned bosses on by yourself.

 

The set can feel really slow on teams, by the time your animations finally end in off-momentum battle openings, someone possibly has already killed your enemy, leading you to travel to the next pack in less than 6 seconds to try to still keep the momentum bonus, which you won't. That's where I have an issue, the animations are so long outside of the momentum mechanic that people are disintegrating the enemy before you can even get the hits on, this set off-momentum is slower than Energy Melee sans Total Focus (even then, they're not far off.) It also has its PBAoE completely shut off from use until you gain momentum (I'd gladly accept a longer animation than have it totally shut off without momentum.)

 

This isn't me saying "TW is bad!" this is me saying, it is slow, clunky, awkward and could use revision/new animations to fine-tune it. 

[BZRKR]

On 4/18/2020 at 9:55 AM, Galaxy Brain said:

Nah but for real, momentum let's you pull off 4 attacks usually.

 

The 1st attack is slow, the next 4 are fast, repeat. That means TW when you're in the groove is mostly a fast set. 

What you say is absolutely true. However, a compelling part of Zeraphia's argument is at low levels when you don't have 4 attacks, and/or don't have the recharge to use the attacks you do have. When you are always doing a slow attack followed by a fast attack, followed by Momentum running out, followed by a slow attack... well it feelsbadman™

 

Whenever they get around to adjusting Titan Weapons, one thing I hope they look at is the Taunt animation, especially the redraw part of it. Compared to other sets, it feels like Titan Weapon takes longer to taunt, and it's such a super great animation that I wouldn't want it to go away.