Exemplaring Confusion

[tripthicket]

Starting this thread rather than continue an unintended hijack elsewhere. My persistent confusion revolves around a common thing I see in many 'level 50' builds and what happens when exemplaring with those builds. Many of these builds start assigning slots, as they come, to the first Power (T1 primary) (1, 3, 3, 5, 5, 7, for example) until it hits 6 slots or the intended # of slots for that Power. Then the process begins again with either the second Power (T2 primary) or the other first Power (T1 secondary). There are other Powers that are available to receive slots during each slot-choice level, but they don't get any slots until the others 'before' them are 'filled'. For a level 50 build that is not intended to be exemplared, this method of assigning slots earns a big ol' shrug. But what happens to the Enhancements in the slots so assigned when one does exemplar? Is this method of assigning slots detrimental to exemplaring considerations?

 

What I'm (dimly) envisioning: exemplaring down (say, via flashback) to a level 9 mission. As I understand it, this means you now only have access to all Powers you acquired up to and including level 14 (9 + 5). If you have access to the Power, you have access to the Enhancements' benefits from all of the slots in that Power, with a few caveats. For TOs/DOs/SOs, you're limited to the normal range of the Enhancement (go completely below the range of your level 25 SOs, it's like you have no Enhancements). For common IOs, you still get the benefit of that level 50 ACC, even if you're level 9 (although there may be a scaling element involved?). For set IOs, if you go below the range of a given IO (say, it's available from levels 30 to 50 only), then you lose the benefits of that Enhancement, but not the bonuses accrued from multiple Enhancements from the same set in the same Power (even if you go below its range?).

 

Now we're in that level 9 Flashback mission. I have access to all Powers up to and including level 14. However, slots weren't assigned to the secondary T1 Power until level 15 and later. The last three slots weren't assigned until past, say, level 45. BUT...is it true that, since I have access to the Power (in any given exemplaring example), I have access to ALL of the slots in the Power (and the benefits of the Enhancements in those slots, given the caveats in the paragraph above), regardless of WHEN the slots were assigned? If I have three post-level-45-assigned slots in my example, I still get the benefits at level 9, as long as I have access to the Power, and given the caveats of the enhancement?

 

I've tried to think through the implications of assigning slots as I've described above vs assigning slots more 'evenly' (spreading them around while leveling, instead of fill one, fill the next, etc). I may be making something out of nothing, as I'm unable to envision what actual differences, positive or negative, there may be. Perhaps I'm just overthinking the whole thing, which is completely in character for me.

[Greycat]

Exemplaring doesn't care about when the slots were placed, just the level you took the power at.

Edited April 19, 2020 by Greycat

[Doc_Scorpion]

28 minutes ago, tripthicket said:

But what happens to the Enhancements in the slots so assigned when one does exemplar?

Nothing.  The game knows what level you chose a particular power at - but does not know which level you assigned a particular slot at.  So you can be exemplared down to level 10 and have all of your (available) powers six-slotted.
 

31 minutes ago, tripthicket said:

is it true that, since I have access to the Power (in any given exemplaring example), I have access to ALL of the slots in the Power (and the benefits of the Enhancements in those slots, given the caveats in the paragraph above), regardless of WHEN the slots were assigned?

100% true.  What happens to enhancements in those slots...  well, that gets complicated.
 

32 minutes ago, tripthicket said:

I've tried to think through the implications of assigning slots as I've described above vs assigning slots more 'evenly' (spreading them around while leveling, instead of fill one, fill the next, etc).

Most of those lvl 50 builds you see floating about are not 'leveling' (playable) builds - it's intended that you respec into them at lvl 50.  If you're actually playing and leveling, the theory of slotting is very different.

[tripthicket]

Thanks to you both. I'd managed to throw up a huge cloud of not-really-relevant details that had my head spinning, and you really cut straight to the heart of the matter in plain and very understandable language.

Edited April 19, 2020 by tripthicket

[macskull]

Enhancements also scale down in effectiveness when you exemplar below level 32, as described in the PW article here (because the game doesn't track when you placed slots, just powers). Set bonuses will also not work more than 3 levels below the level of the IOs in question (i.e. level 50 IO set bonuses stop working below 47) unless they're attuned, PvP, or purple sets.

[Grouchybeast]

And finally, attuned IO set bonuses work down to -3 levels of the lowest possible level of the set.  So an attuned Thunderstrike set, which has a lowest possible level of 30, will provide its set bonuses down to level 27, but not lower.

[Frostweaver]

If you put 3 level 50 slots, 1 level 20 slot, and 1 level 3 slot in the tier2 power that you purchased at level 1, If you go and do the DIB and get exmplared to level 15, your power will STILL POSSESS 6 slots. If you assigned ATO's into those 6 slots, you still get the ATO set bonuses for being 6 slotted. Of course, the bonuses from those enhancements themselves would drop a good deal (to 13.6% in many cases) but the slots are still right there.

If you go below a certain level, most sets lose their set bonuses. and the actual placement value of the enhancement itself sucks too...but the slots and placements are still there.

That is why no one cares about slotting levels. It only matters if you are creating a levelling build specifically as a guide for where to put slots each level.

[tidge]

10 hours ago, Doc_Scorpion said:

Most of those lvl 50 builds you see floating about are not 'leveling' (playable) builds - it's intended that you respec into them at lvl 50.  If you're actually playing and leveling, the theory of slotting is very different.

This is an excellent point. It is very common for my characters (all of which play mission content while leveling, YMMV) to use pick powers and assign slots differently than are planned in the lvl 50 build. The most prevalant reason in my cases is that the lvl 47 and 49 picks sometime serve as 'mules' for IO choices, but I actually want those IOs way before I hit lvl 47.

 

I sometimes suspect that some fraction of 'nerf X' threads have heat generated in them because folks don't recognize the explicit difference between a levelling build and a post-50 build. For example: before level 50, there is no reason to consider slotting Purple sets. After level 50, the Purple sets drop pretty regularly (at least in solo play against a large number of mobs). The effect of post-50 builds may also be contributing to the perma-Haten threads for other powers and effects.

[Rathulfr]

@tripthicket, as I mentioned in the other thread, what you're seeing may be an artifact of how Mid's Reborn works.  It keeps track of the levels as you place slots, but then you can delete and move slots around to other powers as you're working on the build, which can rearrange at what level those slots were placed.  There's also the "Auto-Arrange All Slots" feature of Mid's, which will re-sort the slot levels underneath, so that can make the slots appear in a different order.

 

TL;DR:  when looking at Mid's builds, ignore the levels for slot placements.  They don't necessarily/accurately reflect when slots were actually placed, nor do they matter with respecs.

 

Edited April 19, 2020 by Rathulfr

[tripthicket]

Every answer has made this clearer and clearer for me; thank you all, again. One of the bigger revelations (which I really kinda knew anyway, but which had gotten lost in my confuzzlement) is 'Follow the power picks, and assign slots as you need them for the leveling journey, then respec at 50 into this finished product.' And even that is not set in concrete. I now have a pretty complete picture of what all happens to everything during exemplaring.

 

Now, if only you guys could do something about this alt-itis problem I have... I mean, I'm never gonna get anyone to 50 anyway! 😆

[Caulderone]

13 minutes ago, tripthicket said:

Now, if only you guys could do something about this alt-itis problem I have... I mean, I'm never gonna get anyone to 50 anyway! 😆

The only cure is more cowbell.

[tripthicket]

17 hours ago, Caulderone said:

The only cure is more cowbell.

You laugh, but now I wanna make one of those cow-like characters, with some version of Sonic powers, and name it 'MOAR COWBELL' O.O

 

Edited to add: Aaaaaand now Everlasting has a Poison/Sonic Defender running around, named THE COCK OF THE WALK BABY MOAR COWBELL indeed. He puts his pants on one leg at a time, but when he's done, he MAKES GOLD RECORDS hangs out on LFG waiting for any and all opportunities. Before that old gypsy woman cursed him for being bull-headed (so that he's now actually bull-headed), he may or may not have been THE Bruce Dickinson. But he sure as hell has a fever...

Edited April 20, 2020 by tripthicket

[Frostweaver]

hint. second account, nice spines or rad/fire brute, farming build.

Then, when you want someone at 50, just dual box them in comic con fire farms.

Farmer will help you pick up starting funds for building the builds.

Edited April 21, 2020 by Frostweaver

[Rathulfr]

8 hours ago, Frostweaver said:

hint. second account, nice spines or rad/fire brute, farming build.

Then, when you want someone at 50, just dual box them in comic con fire farms.

Farmer will help you pick up starting funds for building the builds.

I resisted doing this for so long, but eventually I caved in to peer pressure and made my own Spines/Fire Brutes for quick-leveling alts and generating cash for their builds.  I didn't use any IO sets (just a few of the IO procs, mostly for +defense and +recovery/regen), just common IOs.  That allowed me to actively farm at +2x8 or +3x8 without much trouble.  One or two runs of @brigg's fire farms was enough to get an alt to 22-27 and generate a few million Inf: more than enough for a complete set of 25/30 common IOs for that alt.

 

A couple of days ago, I decided to try to finish the fire farmer builds to soft-cap fire defense on a budget: no ATOs, no Winter sets.  I put together a build that leverage multiple sets of Aegis, Mocking Beratement, and Scirroco's Dervish to almost soft-cap fire defense (42.6%) for around 150M Inf.  With Agility and Support incarnates, I pushed that up to 44% fire defense.  I'm sure it's not the best build for speed clearing farms, but it works for me: I no longer have to constantly chew purples (instead, I'm chewing reds now, LOL).

 

[Frostweaver]

well, to be fair, my favorite farmer is my dp/time blaster... almost as fast as a brute, but harder than 3/8 is too much effort.

[tripthicket]

12 hours ago, Frostweaver said:

hint. second account, nice spines or rad/fire brute, farming build.

Then, when you want someone at 50, just dual box them in comic con fire farms.

Farmer will help you pick up starting funds for building the builds.

I actually do have that second acct, with that tricked-out Spines/Fire Brute. Have PLed many of my toons, and made many moolahs indeed. I was being a bit facetious, having 6 or 7 50s already, but I do have a problem with new alts and my wandering attention. I think I've created close to 30 in the past 3, 4 weeks. Also, I usually don't PL past 35; after that, I prefer to play them, so as to get a good feel for them. So, have 50s, but don't play them, so no real money coming in. Several, several more sub-50s, so lots more money not coming in. I was already a bit burnt on farming for the money for ALL those alts, and then we got the AE Inf nerf.

 

Ah well. First World Problems in Paragon City, eh? And it was about this time last year when we were all missing this game. I'm stopping to be thankful in the midst of tearing my hair out. 🙂

[Heraclea]

One other consideration is that 'procs' will always work regardless of the level of the set.  Anything that says 'chance for' is a proc.  Some things that just say 'Regeneration' or 'Recovery' also work like procs. 

 

This is why slots in Health and Stamina are that important.  Health can take three +Recovery uniques (Panacea, Miracle, Numina's) and Stamina takes the Performance Shifter 'chance for' +End and now, a chance for self-heal whose name escapes me at the moment, was added a couple weeks ago.  This is also why you do attune your Panacea. Doesn't make it work any better, but it can now be slottedat level 7, where in fact it does the most good.   At any rate, all of these Health and Stamina procs are working by level 2.