Hasten: Make it Inherent, or get rid of it?

[ABlueThingy]

11 minutes ago, kenlon said:

I wasn't disagreeing with you, merely expanding on what you posted to address the inevitable "I don't use Hasten and I'm fine, therefore Hasten doesn't do anything!" replies. 

Oh! Sorry, I wasn't trying to start anything.  Just wanted to make sure I was clear.

 

11 minutes ago, kenlon said:

I'll reiterate this until doomsday: Hasten, and things like it, are bad design. But it's not worth changing something that is as baked into the fundamental balance assumptions of CoX as Hasten is.

I like... 90% agree with this.  I don't think removing or flat nerfing it is the way to go.  But I think we can wiggle it.  Change it a bit to suit the evolving status of the game. (ideally as part of a larger initiative)

 

[kenlon]

Just now, ABlueThingy said:

I like... 90% agree with this.  I don't think removing or flat nerfing it is the way to go.  But I think we can wiggle it.  Change it a bit to suit the evolving status of the game. (ideally as part of a larger initiative)

 

If they remove it, or nerf it, then it's going to impact every build that uses Hasten. Every single AT and powerset combo, and they would all have to be considered to ensure that the Law of Unintended Consequences doesn't hit some more than others.

It's just not worth it to consider. 

[Zepp]

9 hours ago, KelvinKole said:

I looked and didn't find any. What other primary/secondary powers provide 70% global recharge to yourself or teammates?

What primary/secondary powers provide flight? superspeed? superjumping?

That being said, there are several powers that provide +30-50% recharge with other additional benefits. Accelerated Metabolism is a PBAoE team buff that also adds speed and recovery, Chrono Shift is 50% and also adds heal, recover, and endurance. The peripheral benefits make those powers far superior to Hasten (although Chrono Shift's cooldown could be cut by 25%...).

 

I'm  a pompoms from hell era user of Hasten, but now I only have it on 3 of my 23 builds. My perma-dom doesn't use it, nor does my perma-LF PB. So coming from a person who has an irrational level of attraction to the power, it is not on the same level as Tough, Weave, or Combat Jumping in terms of top tier Pool Powers.

Also, to reiterate a point I made previously, having Hasten is often a sub-optimal choice. A lot of Fenders, Trollers, Corruptors, and some Dom builds need it, but for the most part, it is not worth it. Hell, if they dropped recharge times on Control and Support sets it may not be needed in any of my builds.

[Zepp]

5 hours ago, ZacKing said:

So what?  My tanks, brutes and scrappers still aren't going to die.  My blasters are still going to 1 shot stuff and nuke mobs.  Removing hasten has zero impact.  You're all making a mountain out of an anthill.

DPS and Tank classes will have minimal effect as they are generally sub-optimal if they use Hasten. Trollers, Fenders, Corruptors, & some Doms or Khelds are the ones that would feel the hit.

[Zepp]

5 hours ago, ABlueThingy said:

 

Removing Hasten would have AN impact.  We can argue about how much of one but it would impact quite a lot of builds.  How easy is it to get Perma Dom without it?

Perma-Dom requires 122.5% Global Recharge.
Two-slot Perma-Hasten requires 192.5% Global Recharge (122.5%+Hasten).

[ShardWarrior]

4 minutes ago, Zepp said:

DPS and Tank classes will have minimal effect as they are generally sub-optimal if they use Hasten. Trollers, Fenders, Corruptors, & some Doms or Khelds are the ones that would feel the hit.

Mine would not.  I have hasten in 1 of them and to be honest, I was looking to respec out of it anyway.  I also find it funny how there are so many threads on the forums of people complaining how buffers are "useless" at higher levels, yet now people seem to be worried that Hasten will somehow break them. 

[Zepp]

2 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

Mine would not.  I have hasten in 1 of them and to be honest, I was looking to respec out of it anyway.  I also find it funny how there are so many threads on the forums of people complaining how buffers are "useless" at higher levels, yet now people seem to be worried that Hasten will somehow break them. 

Control and Support are hit hard on team high-level content. That being said, Control and Support sets tend to be the ones that need Hasten to not be lumpy in performance. That being said, some people solo with Trollers and Corruptors especially, but also some Fenders. Their ability to solo would be hit the hardest by Hasten nerfs - even lowering Hasten to 50% may have a major impact on some powersets.

[ShardWarrior]

2 minutes ago, Zepp said:

Control and Support are hit hard on team high-level content. That being said, Control and Support sets tend to be the ones that need Hasten to not be lumpy in performance. That being said, some people solo with Trollers and Corruptors especially, but also some Fenders. Their ability to solo would be hit the hardest by Hasten nerfs - even lowering Hasten to 50% may have a major impact on some powersets.

No doubt.

[tidge]

9 hours ago, Zepp said:

DPS and Tank classes will have minimal effect as they are generally sub-optimal if they use Hasten. Trollers, Fenders, Corruptors, & some Doms or Khelds are the ones that would feel the hit.

If we are simply posting anecdotes: I just used a lvl 50 respec on a scrapper to add Hasten. The attack chain did not *need* the global recharge, but with Hasten (now perma) I have the Build Up available much more often and I can alter the attack chain to improve DPS. This is pretty clearly a min-max situation (maximize D, minimize S) to improve the beating capacity of the Scrapper.

 

'Sub-optimal' may be 'Sub-jective'. I agree that the DPS and Tank classes may not need Global Recharge to 'feel' like their AT, but each of them has access to one or more long-recharge powers that can feel 'defining' to the characters.

 

I'm a little disappointed to see Crabberminds left off the list: They have access to Mental Training (the non-hasten Hasten) but (perma) Hasten is what allows them to have their full suite of pets (including a Patron pet) available every 4 minutes. It isn't fair to call this 'perma pets' because of the nature of the summons but the ability to respawn them immediately after the power expires is an extremely desirable feature of that build decision.

[ABlueThingy]

10 hours ago, Zepp said:

Control and Support are hit hard on team high-level content. That being said, Control and Support sets tend to be the ones that need Hasten to not be lumpy in performance. That being said, some people solo with Trollers and Corruptors especially, but also some Fenders. Their ability to solo would be hit the hardest by Hasten nerfs - even lowering Hasten to 50% may have a major impact on some powersets.

Frankly Controllers/Corruptors/Defenders/Dominators all need to be looked at, as a whole.  Irrespective of hasten. The baseline design of a lot of old support/control sets is really for a bygone era and they need some updating.

 

 

[Zeraphia]

11 hours ago, Zepp said:

Also, to reiterate a point I made previously, having Hasten is often a sub-optimal choice. A lot of Fenders, Trollers, Corruptors, and some Dom builds need it, but for the most part, it is not worth it. Hell, if they dropped recharge times on Control and Support sets it may not be needed in any of my builds.

 

11 hours ago, Zepp said:

DPS and Tank classes will have minimal effect as they are generally sub-optimal if they use Hasten. Trollers, Fenders, Corruptors, & some Doms or Khelds are the ones that would feel the hit.

 

I get that how you build your characters is the way you build them, but expecting everyone to build your way with your recharges, your defenses, and your slotting to adjust to a massive Hasten nerf and saying that it will have "minimal effects on DPS and Tank classes" is just ignorant. 

 

Scrappers/Blasters/Stalkers, they all have major *use* for Hasten. There are DPS improvements, some by MASSIVE degrees by the amount of recharge you possess. Many of the builds for these characters will not have access to those attack chains without Hasten or a massive amount of party buff-stacking. Even further, assuming you can get the attack chain (which you can't in most cases to reach their optimal DPS potential) without Hasten's recharge directly, you must build for high recharge in your build. That always comes at a cost, whether that be defense, resistances, or procs, it always does. Further, T9's are on a long CD as is for Blasters, hitting everyone's T9 with Hasten would be devastating, it would make that T9 recharge much slower and some may be seeing their T9 Inferno up maybe once every 40-50 seconds depending on previous recharge. That is a drastic nerf that has major consequences to DPS/Tank AT's.

 

1 hour ago, tidge said:

If we are simply posting anecdotes: I just used a lvl 50 respec on a scrapper to add Hasten. The attack chain did not *need* the global recharge, but with Hasten (now perma) I have the Build Up available much more often and I can alter the attack chain to improve DPS. This is pretty clearly a min-max situation (maximize D, minimize S) to improve the beating capacity of the Scrapper.

 

'Sub-optimal' may be 'Sub-jective'. I agree that the DPS and Tank classes may not need Global Recharge to 'feel' like their AT, but each of them has access to one or more long-recharge powers that can feel 'defining' to the characters.

 

I'm a little disappointed to see Crabberminds left off the list: They have access to Mental Training (the non-hasten Hasten) but (perma) Hasten is what allows them to have their full suite of pets (including a Patron pet) available every 4 minutes. It isn't fair to call this 'perma pets' because of the nature of the summons but the ability to respawn them immediately after the power expires is an extremely desirable feature of that build decision.

Right on the money...

[Apparition]

I'm pretty sure that Dual Blades (any AT), needs Hasten for their best attack chain.  And by pretty sure, I mean I know that they do.

Edited April 28, 2020 by Apparition

[ShardWarrior]

7 minutes ago, Apparition said:

I'm pretty sure that Dual Blades (any AT), needs Hasten for their best attack chain.  And by pretty sure, I mean I know that they do.

My DB/Nin scrapper does not have Hasten and she does just fine without it.  I do understand those who made the choice to sacrifice defense or procs for maximum DPS would be hurt by any changes. 

[Bionic_Flea]

When I get a set of +recharge inspirations (small, medium, large, dual, team) I would consider a removal, reduction, or revamp of hasten.  Until then . . . no, thank you.

[Corruption]

15 hours ago, Zepp said:

DPS and Tank classes will have minimal effect as they are generally sub-optimal if they use Hasten. Trollers, Fenders, Corruptors, & some Doms or Khelds are the ones that would feel the hit.

 

You're completely wrong about Hasten. It literally makes every single build better with very little investment.

[Infinitum]

7 minutes ago, Corruption said:

 

You're completely wrong about Hasten. It literally makes every single build better with very little investment.

So, how is that different from any power?

 

Maneuvers makes every build and every member of a teams build better also for very little investment.

[ShardWarrior]

1 hour ago, Corruption said:

 

You're completely wrong about Hasten. It literally makes every single build better with very little investment.

"Better" is entirely subjective.

[ABlueThingy]

2 hours ago, Infinitum said:

So, how is that different from any power?

 

Maneuvers makes every build and every member of a teams build better also for very little investment.

 

There is almost always a power in any given build that could be sacrificed for Hasten and have it improve the build's overall DPS, support, survivability, and/or utility.  Across all Powersets and archytypes.  That's just how good +rech is. And Hasten is a cheap and easy source of it.

 

My main from beta onward was a Kat/Regen scrapper.  Every build, no matter which way I sliced it, was always clearly better at being a scrapper with Hasten.  Even when I made stupid builds. Like the time I made a sword less attack chain using Fighting/Airsup/Jumpkick; I just kept telling people I lost my sword.  With Hasten that build was-- well it was terrible.  But it was playable, I could still solo up to 6/+2.  Albeit slowly

 

But it also worked on my endgame builds. Using nemesis as a baseline(Pre IOs) Hasten was the difference between soloing him or not.  I was able to drop an attack from my attack chain while IMPROVING my dps and squeeze in Maneuvers for the extra def.

 

When CoV came out I mained a Robot/Dark MM and Hasten absolutely made that character work above and beyond.  I think I soloed all content at max diff.  Took down multiple AVs.  It wasn't much but I was able to slot a bit for duration and rech and stack enough fear/hold/imob that I could pin down almost anything.  I would have lost that extra hold stack that actually let me pin down bosses and AVs without Hasten.  And keep the AV regen tanked.  I wouldn't have been able to fear down every entire single spawn without Hasten.  Now I would have been close, sure.  But Hasten pushed it over the top.  There was no other single power that could have improved the build as much as Hasten.

 

 

All that said... I never kept Hasten on my Scrapper very long.  And as soon as my MM got to 50 I chunked Hasten in the trash.  I hate those glowy pompoms.  It made them less fun to play having a "This is the most effective choice" power in there periodically reminding me via it's autocast that I'm min-maxing at the cost of the thematics of the character.  It wasn't fun.

 

But the point isn't that Hasten is fun or un-fun.  It's that it's just so useful, the only downside is that it costs you a pool choice and a power slot.  Seeing how it mechanically outweighs most other choices those are a small price to pay.   It's an *almost* universal build panacea. 

 

Does your build just suck?  Why not try Hasten.  Are you dying to much? A little dab of hasten will fix that right up.  Do your pets die too much? Are you doing a quirky themed build and want to up your play so you're not a total load for your team? Enemies don't stay held? Can't solo AVs? Is your build already at or near the true godhead but you just need that little push to achieve final apotheosis? Do you need more cowbell? AWW U JUST GOTTA SLAP SOME HASTEN ON THERE.  It may not get you all the way there but the only thing that could improve your build more is, like, a 4 billion inf Purple IO build.

 

[Zepp]

11 hours ago, tidge said:

If we are simply posting anecdotes: I just used a lvl 50 respec on a scrapper to add Hasten. The attack chain did not *need* the global recharge, but with Hasten (now perma) I have the Build Up available much more often and I can alter the attack chain to improve DPS. This is pretty clearly a min-max situation (maximize D, minimize S) to improve the beating capacity of the Scrapper.

 

'Sub-optimal' may be 'Sub-jective'. I agree that the DPS and Tank classes may not need Global Recharge to 'feel' like their AT, but each of them has access to one or more long-recharge powers that can feel 'defining' to the characters.

 

I'm a little disappointed to see Crabberminds left off the list: They have access to Mental Training (the non-hasten Hasten) but (perma) Hasten is what allows them to have their full suite of pets (including a Patron pet) available every 4 minutes. It isn't fair to call this 'perma pets' because of the nature of the summons but the ability to respawn them immediately after the power expires is an extremely desirable feature of that build decision.

Sorry, you are correct that Crabberminds do need hasten. And I did say that most DPS are sub-optimal with hasten, in other words, they can do more damage without it than with it. There are situations, however, where certain builds can use hasten.

[Infinitum]

2 hours ago, ABlueThingy said:

There is almost always a power in any given build that could be sacrificed for Hasten and have it improve the build's overall DPS, support, survivability, and/or utility.  Across all Powersets and archytypes.  That's just how good +rech is. And Hasten is a cheap and easy source of it.

Maneuvers = team wide stacking +defense.

 

Hasten does not increase survivability.

 

If you are relying on hasten to do that you are doing it wrong.

[Bionic_Flea]

Hasten CAN increase survivability in several ways:

1. Buffs, debuffs, and heals are available to be used more often.
2. Tier9 armors are available to be used more often.
3. Soft and hard controls are available to be used more often.
4. Attacks are available to be used more often. (Dead men tell no tales)

[Zepp]

10 hours ago, Zeraphia said:

 

 

I get that how you build your characters is the way you build them, but expecting everyone to build your way with your recharges, your defenses, and your slotting to adjust to a massive Hasten nerf and saying that it will have "minimal effects on DPS and Tank classes" is just ignorant. 

 

Scrappers/Blasters/Stalkers, they all have major *use* for Hasten. There are DPS improvements, some by MASSIVE degrees by the amount of recharge you possess. Many of the builds for these characters will not have access to those attack chains without Hasten or a massive amount of party buff-stacking. Even further, assuming you can get the attack chain (which you can't in most cases to reach their optimal DPS potential) without Hasten's recharge directly, you must build for high recharge in your build. That always comes at a cost, whether that be defense, resistances, or procs, it always does. Further, T9's are on a long CD as is for Blasters, hitting everyone's T9 with Hasten would be devastating, it would make that T9 recharge much slower and some may be seeing their T9 Inferno up maybe once every 40-50 seconds depending on previous recharge. That is a drastic nerf that has major consequences to DPS/Tank AT's.

 

Right on the money...

Not ignorant, I just ran the numbers, and most DPS toons can hit optimal DPS in attack chains with global recharge <122.5%. Furthermore, I am opposed the nerf and it would have major consequences for fenders, trollers, corruptors, crabberminds, some Doms and a small handful of DpSers...

(Inferno with 120% Global Recharge ~45s, with Hasten ~37s [you need 122.5% global recharge to two-slot hasten pre-incarnate])

[Infinitum]

15 minutes ago, Bionic_Flea said:

Hasten CAN increase survivability in several ways:

1. Buffs, debuffs, and heals are available to be used more often.
2. Tier9 armors are available to be used more often.
3. Soft and hard controls are available to be used more often.
4. Attacks are available to be used more often. (Dead men tell no tales)

Again every single bit of that is dynamic, the only sure survivability is static layered mitigation.

 

Which is any combination of soft capped defense, capped resistance, high regen.

 

Tier 9 armors should never enter a conversation for reliable survivability.

 

You can take hasten out of every one of my melee builds and they wouldn't miss a beat.  The only reason its in those builds is because the other choices are crap.  Again and again, not hastens fault.

 

It would hurt most on the ill rad.

 

As for attacking more, it isn't without a cost - you are also using more end which in turn could hurt survivability with an ill timed hasten and perhaps also a rage drop mid battle.

 

I love it how everyone pro nerf is acting like there are no associated costs to run hasten.

[KelvinKole]

32 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

Again every single bit of that is dynamic, the only sure survivability is static layered mitigation.

 

Which is any combination of soft capped defense, capped resistance, high regen.

 

Your entitled to this opinion, but it's not fact. There are many many other ways to survive. 

[AkuTenshiiZero]

Swap Hasten with Whirlwind.  Require some investment into Super Speed in order to take advantage of it.  That way it won't be an auto-pick on most characters and speedsters can keep it for their thematic purposes.  Whirlwind is way less powerful than Hasten and not a popular pick, I don't see why it should be a two-power-required pick.

 

Honestly I don't see the point of shoving inane amounts of recharge into every build.  Sure, my Savage/Elec Brute uses it but I decided that since I was already using Super Speed and he gets recharge bonuses already I might as well push his speed to hilarious levels and make that his thing.  I never use it on any of my other characters, I just don't see the need.

Edited April 29, 2020 by AkuTenshiiZero