Poison Buffs QoL

[Zeraphia]

Alkaloid... The heal is weak, and only is one target, and non-self. 

 

Envenom and Weaken... The radius is small, I can see this becoming *possibly* OP if it had its radius turned too large, but as they stands they're just too small, the enemies practically have to be huddled into a melee range get the most out of them. It would also be better if they were possibly targeted AoE so that the location's radius would be easier to engulf enemies in. 

 

Paralytic Poison... Cast time could be reduced to around 1.67s or 1.3s or something, as it stands right now it just feels slow and it only really gets taken 1. as a proc mule 2. for controllers to stack holds.

 

Antidote... should be targeted AoE ally buff. ID, Clear Mind, most other equivalents of this power are targeted AoE. Not much reason for this not to be.

 

Neurotoxic Breath... I don't know really, this power is probably the most skippable in the entire set. Long animation, not great cone, not even great with procs.

 

 

Key issues with the set:

 

 

-This set is excellent at debuffing, it is sincerely no joke, however it *needs* ways to mitigate incoming damage toward the caster (beyond just the T9), especially how you want to use your T9 in melee range to gain its debuff benefits.

-This set lacks a "real" heal. Alkaloid just doesn't cut it. It could really use something like Twilight Grasp, Healing Aura, Nullify Pain, etc. that actually heals the caster since the caster is in melee range so often due to the T9 being a PBAoE.

-The two main debuffs' radius is too short, instead of a mere 8' it should probably be somewhere like 10-15' (I'd say 15 feet, same as the aura, is "fair" without being imbalanced... we do have Radiation that gets 15', I don't think this would be "overpowered.") As it stands, a CoT Behemoth, War Walkers, many other "large" enemies can totally engulf the radius of this power and make it practically a ST debuff rather than AoE.

-Neurotoxic Breath stands in the way of this set from either getting a good powerful faster-casting debuff of itself, or a really helpful buff that would keep you alive using your T9. 

Edited May 9, 2020 by Zeraphia

[nihilii]

18 minutes ago, Zeraphia said:

Paralytic Poison... Cast time could be reduced to around 1.67s or 1.3s or something, as it stands right now it just feels slow and it only really gets taken 1. as a proc mule 2. for controllers to stack holds.

Make that every single ST hold in the game, IMHO. It's absurd the number of ST holds that are nigh useless because they have a ~2.2s cast.

[Naraka]

There have been various suggestions about improving Poison.  I think a lot would aim to give the set's "splash" mechanic to some more of its powers but overall keep the same radius, namely because if it just had 10-15ft radius AoE debuffs that remained as strong as they are, it would be a very easy set to maneuver around, especially with how fast the debuffs recharge.  Giving Alkaloid, Antidote and Elixir a small AoE splash that had reduced effect would really aid in it's team support. 

 

Here's the thread for reference:

 

As for your suggestions...

 

4 hours ago, Zeraphia said:

-This set is excellent at debuffing, it is sincerely no joke, however it *needs* ways to mitigate incoming damage toward the caster (beyond just the T9), especially how you want to use your T9 in melee range to gain its debuff benefits.

Poison is actually a very safe support set to solo.  Even on teams, you're mostly chilling dropping traps and spitting poison under the radar.  It can easily stack -30%ToHit and -50% damage, coupled with the slow, mobs just don't have the opportunity to put pressure on you unless they have mez.

 

4 hours ago, Zeraphia said:

-This set lacks a "real" heal. Alkaloid just doesn't cut it. It could really use something like Twilight Grasp, Healing Aura, Nullify Pain, etc. that actually heals the caster since the caster is in melee range so often due to the T9 being a PBAoE.

I don't really mind this as I don't feel like babysitting people with heals anyway if I'm playing a debuffer.  Sure, Dark Miasma has a nice heal but it's finnicky and requires you stand next to the one you're healing.  I like DM but I also like Poison and one aspect of that is it doesn't have a "real" heal.  If I had a real heal on my Poison character, people would expect me to use it lol.  Just use your debuffs to turn the foes into runny nosed toddlers instead.

 

4 hours ago, Zeraphia said:

-The two main debuffs' radius is too short, instead of a mere 8' it should probably be somewhere like 10-15' (I'd say 15 feet, same as the aura, is "fair" without being imbalanced... we do have Radiation that gets 15', I don't think this would be "overpowered.") As it stands, a CoT Behemoth, War Walkers, many other "large" enemies can totally engulf the radius of this power and make it practically a ST debuff rather than AoE.

This is true, but I feel the short radius is the cost for the potency.  Speaking in terms of debuff radius, stuff like Melt Armor and the various toggle debuffs have radii around 15ft but they come with their own penalties (Melt Armor is on a long recharge, the toggles can be dropped and can only be applied once at a time).  A power like Envenom is extremely potent and versatile and its shortcoming (small radius) can be overcome by slotting a rech in it so you can apply it to more targets.

 

5 hours ago, Zeraphia said:

-Neurotoxic Breath stands in the way of this set from either getting a good powerful faster-casting debuff of itself, or a really helpful buff that would keep you alive using your T9. 

Could be right.  I do like Neurotoxic Breath myself, which is why I'd like to see a bit added to this power as is.

 

My personal suggestion for the set along with the splash effect on the buffs, would be like an "incubation" mechanic that basically resets the duration of the effect of Envenom and Weaken if they are already affected by it.  Put a chance to reset their durations in Neurotoxic Breath and Poison Trap and give a 100% chance to reset the duration of Envenom/Weaken in Paralytic Poison.  

[Psyonico]

5 hours ago, Zeraphia said:

Antidote... should be targeted AoE ally buff. ID, Clear Mind, most other equivalents of this power are targeted AoE. Not much reason for this not to be.

 

No Mez protection is AoE

[Greycat]

Honestly, the only gripe I have with Poison is the heal. Especially on a mastermind, it seems to take so long to cast and "travel" that by the time it gets to the target, they've gone to the hospital, healed up,had some kids, the kids have grown up and you're finally healing that scratch on the grandkid's knee.

 

(Plus I seem to recall the END cost being kind of high, but that might just be from heavy use in some mastermind situations.)

[Zeraphia]

2 hours ago, Psyonico said:

No Mez protection is AoE

Increased Density is AoE

Faraday Cage is AoE

Sonic Dispersion is AoE

Pretty sure Clear Mind or whatever it is from Empathy is AoE too.

[Vanden]

12 minutes ago, Zeraphia said:

Increased Density is AoE

Pretty sure Clear Mind or whatever it is from Empathy is AoE too.

Only the damage resistance in Increase Density is AoE. Clear Mind is not AoE at all.

[Zeraphia]

3 minutes ago, Vanden said:

Only the damage resistance in Increase Density is AoE. Clear Mind is not AoE at all.

Well great! Then I think the Poison resistance should be AoE too! It's something.

[Greycat]

43 minutes ago, Zeraphia said:

Increased Density is AoE

Faraday Cage is AoE

Sonic Dispersion is AoE

Pretty sure Clear Mind or whatever it is from Empathy is AoE too.

Sonic Dispersion (and the FF equiuvalent) are toggles. Technically, then, PBAOE (and hope the person running it doesn't get slept, killed or run out of END. Also requires you to stay close.)

Faraday cage is a *location* PBAOE.

The others have already been touched on.

[Zeraphia]

2 minutes ago, Greycat said:

Sonic Dispersion (and the FF equiuvalent) are toggles. Technically, then, PBAOE (and hope the person running it doesn't get slept, killed or run out of END. Also requires you to stay close.)

Faraday cage is a *location* PBAOE.

The others have already been touched on.

They're still... AoE mez protection buffs. They're toggles/location, but that doesn't change the fact that they affect more than *one* person. Something that contributes a buff to teammates would add something to the set. But really, this isn't most of the core about the set, I really couldn't care less about the mez protection that much, but I would like to see that some portion of its buff being AoE. 

 

Poison needs something to stabilize itself. Yes, in *theory*:

3 hours ago, Naraka said:

Poison is actually a very safe support set to solo.  Even on teams, you're mostly chilling dropping traps and spitting poison under the radar.  It can easily stack -30%ToHit and -50% damage, coupled with the slow, mobs just don't have the opportunity to put pressure on you unless they have mez.

Reality: if you're fighting mobs at higher difficulties, those debuffs are going to be lessened. The debuffs are also not guaranteed to hit that many enemies given the fact they're not location-based nor do they have substantial enough range. You can say you'll herd them up, but you have no actual protection from the alpha of a larger or scattered group. Poison dies. Very easily. I've played a variety of support sets, and I can say that Poison itself has faceplanted more than the others due to the sheer fact its T9 forces you into melee, and the debuff likely won't hit all or sometimes even most enemies to mitigate an alpha strike. 

[SeraphimKensai]

Venomous Gas could stand to have it's end usage cut down.

 

Alkaloid, Antidote, and Elixir are easily the most likely powers to skip, as Poison is a straight up debuff set and is great at that.

 

If I was given the magic wand of changing powersets, I would likely:

1. Slightly expand the debuff splash of envenom and weaken.

2. Change Neurotic Breath to act as a wide arc ~120° catalyst which has a "caustic reaction" when it hits a target that has envenom/weakness on it. The reaction would likely be a long duration -regen/-max hp that ticks like DoT and self stacks.

 

Getting "Caustic Reaction" on as many enemies as possible would be the bread and butter of Poison play.

 

3. Elixir would be changed to essentially make the target it rezzes as "Patient Zero" in that they would have a temporary Noxious Gas pbaoe debuff aura.

 

4. Antidote would change into a pbaoe click, that neutralizes existing debuffs on the player and team/leaguemates.

 

5. Alkaloid would turn into a pbaoe click based HoT that also slightly buffs resistance to toxic.

 

[macskull]

21 minutes ago, Zeraphia said:

They're still... AoE mez protection buffs. They're toggles/location, but that doesn't change the fact that they affect more than *one* person. Something that contributes a buff to teammates would add something to the set. But really, this isn't most of the core about the set, I really couldn't care less about the mez protection that much, but I would like to see that some portion of its buff being AoE.

That they are toggle or location is an important distinction because as a result they require allies to either: 1) stay within a small radius of the person running the toggle or 2) stay within the location patch of the buff, both of which are substantially different than "90 seconds of mez protection for everyone no matter where you go or what you do." You could make the argument that Clarion exists but non-Incarnate content isn't balanced around Incarnate powers and so much of the game happens at levels other than 50. That being said I don't see why at the very least the secondary effects of Antidote shouldn't be AoE.

[gameboy1234]

9 hours ago, Zeraphia said:

-This set is excellent at debuffing, it is sincerely no joke, however it *needs* ways to mitigate incoming damage toward the caster (beyond just the T9), especially how you want to use your T9 in melee range to gain its debuff benefits.

-This set lacks a "real" heal. Alkaloid just doesn't cut it. It could really use something like Twilight Grasp, Healing Aura, Nullify Pain, etc. that actually heals the caster since the caster is in melee range so often due to the T9 being a PBAoE.

I remember giving this set a go on live as a Necro/Poison MM, and it sucked bad.  I haven't played it recently, but I'll toss some ideas around.

 

I think the heal is OKish and needs smaller tweaks.  Think O2 boost.  What I would do is leave the long cast time, but improve the healing.  I would keep the current healing per second number, but increase the recharge time and boost the healing in proportion.  Then you have a situation that decreasing the recharge would actually make a difference.  Right now the recharge time is so short and the heal itself so weak that slotting for either doesn't matter.  Increase both (maybe even increase recharge to 36 seconds and increase the heal by 3) and you'd have something that could be buffed up with slotting really easily.

 

I totally agree that radius on Envenom and Weaken are far too small.  Compared to say Darkest Night (25 ft.) or Irradiate (20 ft. and a defender *secondary*), the 8 ft is a joke.  Please please increase this.  The radius could be double to 16 ft. without even thinking about it and I'm sure even more would not be OP.

 

I think I'd advocate to change the cone Neurotoxic Breath to have a small heal over time effect if it hits a friendly (keep its debuff on enemies though).  Similar to the cone in Nature Affinity.  It would need to be able to target both friends and enemies if this change gets made.

 

And I'd like to add a buff to Anitdote, where if you hit a target with this and then within say about 10 seconds or so, you hit them with Alkaloid (the heal), the heal gets a buff and does like 1.5 times or 2 times the healing.  You'd have to adjust carefully the recharge time for Antidote for this to not be OP though.

 

Just my two Inf.  Keep on rocking in Paragon City.

 

 

Edited May 9, 2020 by gameboy1234

[gameboy1234]

9 minutes ago, SeraphimKensai said:

If I was given the magic wand of changing powersets, I would likely:

1. Slightly expand the debuff splash of envenom and weaken.

Personally I think the mechanic that gives these two powers a chance to "jump" to another target is too inconsistent and fiddly to be truly useful.  The simpler mechanic of "everybody in the radius gets hit" just like every other AoE power is more desirable.  It's just too hard to use these powers effectively.  Both Envenom and Weaken should be changed to either have a simple AoE effect, or they should work like Darkest Night and just affect every enemy in the radius of the anchor.

 

[Naraka]

56 minutes ago, Zeraphia said:

 

Reality: if you're fighting mobs at higher difficulties, those debuffs are going to be lessened. The debuffs are also not guaranteed to hit that many enemies given the fact they're not location-based nor do they have substantial enough range. You can say you'll herd them up, but you have no actual protection from the alpha of a larger or scattered group. Poison dies. Very easily. I've played a variety of support sets, and I can say that Poison itself has faceplanted more than the others due to the sheer fact its T9 forces you into melee, and the debuff likely won't hit all or sometimes even most enemies to mitigate an alpha strike. 

If you're fighting mobs of higher difficulty, then your team must be prepared to face higher difficulty mobs.  If you are getting destroyed because your build isn't situated to handle higher difficulty mobs then *lower the difficulty*.  The devs didn't put in a difficulty slider for show.

 

As for faceplanting on a given set-up or not, that's anecdotal.  I'm sure there are plenty who have played on certain builds or ATs that seemingly shouldn't be capable but managed regardless, that doesn't mean said AT/set-up is fine just like you faceplanting doesn't mean said setup is broken.

 

I personally have a Poison/Dark defender who also has the capacity to faceplant if not careful, but she can also reduce mobs to uselessness with a combo of stacked effects and control thanks to both powersets.  Dealing with alpha strikes isn't something a build is suppose to inherently be able to deal with.  That is purely on the player.  Want to help deal with an alpha strike on your Poison character?  Pick up some stealth and drop a poison trap in the center of a group.  Boom.  All the minions are pretty much controlled and the effect will persist for some time.  If you want complete safety, there's also Phase Shift or IOs.

 

EDIT: Also, if I'm not mistaken, Poison also has a debuff that decreases the amount that foes can resist their debuffs.  Weaken pretty much nerfs high difficulty foes from resisting your effects like controls, debuffs and their own buffs.  So there's also that...

Edited May 9, 2020 by Naraka

[macskull]

3 hours ago, Naraka said:

EDIT: Also, if I'm not mistaken, Poison also has a debuff that decreases the amount that foes can resist their debuffs.  Weaken pretty much nerfs high difficulty foes from resisting your effects like controls, debuffs and their own buffs.  So there's also that...

Sort of. Weaken does -special which will cause the target's own buffs and debuffs to be less effective, but it doesn't change the target's resistance to control or debuff.

[Zeraphia]

10 hours ago, Naraka said:

Dealing with alpha strikes isn't something a build is suppose to inherently be able to deal with.

Then why have the T9 at all if it forces you to take alpha strikes like this that no other set really does? There really isn't a comparable power that so strictly tries to *force* you into this range. I'm not for gutting the power, I'm for giving the set an ability to survive stay in that type of range and mitigate the incoming damage to some extent.

10 hours ago, Naraka said:

As for faceplanting on a given set-up or not, that's anecdotal.  I'm sure there are plenty who have played on certain builds or ATs that seemingly shouldn't be capable but managed regardless, that doesn't mean said AT/set-up is fine just like you faceplanting doesn't mean said setup is broken.

The way I framed it isn't purely anecdotal. Look at the powers itself. You are blatantly ignoring the fact that you *have* to be in melee range to use the T9. There is *no other support set* that so strictly enforces this. I highly doubt that anyone who is playing this will tell you that without incarnates/"god mode" powers/lots of team buffs will say "yea, my poison does just fine at what it does!" you lack any sort of buff to absorb the alpha with your T9, you lack mez protection for yourself, and you can't even heal that damage, and the radius for your aoe debuffs is too small most of the time to contain a group. That does seem like a broken set. 

You're going to list all the arguments against that, but that doesn't change the reality that it doesn't have a way to mitigate damage internally to keep itself alive to actually use its debuffs. You keep pretending like mobs aren't spread out/large enough and that it'll just always debuff the enemies and be fine, that is not reality.

"Well, that's an issue for most Defenders!" except, very few defenders have such issues staying alive, they either have range to not have to take melee strikes, are given buffs to keep themselves alive, holds to keep enemies at bay, etc. at the moment, Poison is playing like a much more dangerous and more debuffing (kind of, Poison has special effects to its debuffs that are great, I grant it that, but Rad also has the much more consistently hitting ranged target larger AoEs) version of Rad. 

Poison Trap, as lovely as it is, is not a substitute for Nature Affinity's AoE hold or Rad's AoE hold. There is indeed a night and day difference, as to how drastic, I'm unsure. Poison Trap does not cost as much endurance as the other two, that's true, but you pay the price by your holds not being as consistent -> dying more. 

10 hours ago, Naraka said:

EDIT: Also, if I'm not mistaken, Poison also has a debuff that decreases the amount that foes can resist their debuffs.  Weaken pretty much nerfs high difficulty foes from resisting your effects like controls, debuffs and their own buffs.  So there's also that...

Again, this sounds great, and if you're doing -1/x1 by yourself, Poison will feel OP, even up to +2 with low group setting. It's when you get into higher difficulties and AVs that their resistances to your debuffs climb up exponentially and start really hurting you. A +3 AV with purple patch will have your debuffs reduced to only about -20% damage debuff. A regular mob at +3 will be -40% damage debuff. Mez res on AV's is unaffected entirely by Weaken. 

[Naraka]

6 hours ago, Zeraphia said:

Then why have the T9 at all if it forces you to take alpha strikes like this that no other set really does? There really isn't a comparable power that so strictly tries to *force* you into this range. I'm not for gutting the power, I'm for giving the set an ability to survive stay in that type of range and mitigate the incoming damage to some extent.

I'm sorry?

 

Just because the tier 9 is a melee ranged debuff doesn't mean you're safe to use it without some sort of consideration of how you're using it.  It's the same thing with Force Bubble, you don't just go waltzing around with it on, you're just going to spread foes out and get ranged down.  You don't go waltzing up to a spawn and Fulcrum Shift them either unless you want those buffs to quickly disappear once you soak up the alpha.  Or try walking up to a group and casting Lightning Storm and see what happens.

 

Basically, you have to actually *think* when you're playing these types of characters.  Use tactics.  Combine your powers.  And if that's a problem for you, there are IOs so you can get around this limitation.

 

6 hours ago, Zeraphia said:

The way I framed it isn't purely anecdotal. Look at the powers itself. You are blatantly ignoring the fact that you *have* to be in melee range to use the T9.

I didn't ignore this fact when I decided to make a Poison/Dark Blast Defender.  The very reason that its debuff is melee range is why I maximized Blackstar to recharge as often as possible.  FYI, Blackstar is the Dark Blast nuke that is PBAoE, 25ft radius with 20sec of -60% ToHit.  Since Defender isn't big on damage, I decided to slot it for rech moreso than to defeat foes but Venomous Gas does help by debuffing ToHit, Res, Def and damage to make it slightly safer to cast but it still requires tactics and teamwork to use.  That's why I picked up other powers like Phase Shift, stealth, and Oppressive Gloom to stack with my other effects.  I also have Life Drain to help a bit with HP.

 

6 hours ago, Zeraphia said:

you lack any sort of buff to absorb the alpha with your T9, you lack mez protection for yourself, and you can't even heal that damage, and the radius for your aoe debuffs is too small most of the time to contain a group. That does seem like a broken set. 

If you're so concerned with alpha strikes, then pull.  As a ranged character, you're not designed to run into a group and absorb alpha strikes.  If you want to do that, play a /poison Controller.  Then you have nothing to complain about there.  That's really all I can help you with there.  Blasters, Defenders and Corruptors are *NOT* meant to absorb alpha strikes.  The End.  If that's what you want, you can create a build that maximizes your survivability.

 

I'll reiterate that: Ranged ATs are not meant to absorb alpha strikes.

6 hours ago, Zeraphia said:

You're going to list all the arguments against that, but that doesn't change the reality that it doesn't have a way to mitigate damage internally to keep itself alive to actually use its debuffs. You keep pretending like mobs aren't spread out/large enough and that it'll just always debuff the enemies and be fine, that is not reality.

"Well, that's an issue for most Defenders!" except, very few defenders have such issues staying alive, they either have range to not have to take melee strikes, are given buffs to keep themselves alive, holds to keep enemies at bay, etc. at the moment, Poison is playing like a much more dangerous and more debuffing (kind of, Poison has special effects to its debuffs that are great, I grant it that, but Rad also has the much more consistently hitting ranged target larger AoEs) version of Rad. 

Poison Trap, as lovely as it is, is not a substitute for Nature Affinity's AoE hold or Rad's AoE hold. There is indeed a night and day difference, as to how drastic, I'm unsure. Poison Trap does not cost as much endurance as the other two, that's true, but you pay the price by your holds not being as consistent -> dying more. 

 There are plenty of support sets that protect the user far less than the team.  There's Force Field, Sonic Resonance, Empathy, Pain Domination, Cold Domination, etc etc.  Like I said before, Poison is relatively safer to solo and on teams primarily because you benefit nearly as much from your powers as your team.  You get the benefit of reducing the target's ToHit, dmg, def, resistance as well as controlling them.  You only have to really focus on debuffing the harder targets because Poison Trap can mitigate the weaker ones.  You can also stack Poison Trap if you slot it for recharge.  Rad's and Nature's holds require you stick around while Poison Trap can technically have multiples set up and foes drawn into them if you really want to absorb alpha strikes.

 

I think what you're highlighting here is the differences between the sets.  You just haven't embraced any of those differences but instead hold that against the set without highlighting the advantages the set has.  For example, what happens when you get mezzed while playing Radiation Emission?  Bye bye to your debuffs.  If you get mezzed on Poison?  If you cast them, your debuffs are still there...and the mez doesn't last as long either.

Edited May 10, 2020 by Naraka