Mastermind End Penalties Discussion

[killigraphy]

I use my End to heal/buff. So while my Demons play, I pay to heal. I saw the class as yet another reason not to pick a Defender (which I have at level 50).  Honestly, that's what it felt when CoV came out....Corr's and MM's were the reason to never look at a Defender again, then CoX happened, and it cemented that ideology, all the way through. Sure I heal 20-30 points left, but with regular IO's, that doesn't matter.

 

Its not really an argument, everybody knows MM's don't use much end, and that's fine, so long as I'm getting buffed and or healed, idc about how far your blue bar retracts.

[JayboH]

On 6/17/2020 at 5:45 AM, killigraphy said:

Its not really an argument, everybody knows MM's don't use much end

Not only is that not true, if it was true then the endurance penalty is bugged

[seresibyl3]

3 hours ago, JayboH said:

Not only is that not true, if it was true then the endurance penalty is bugged

I'm sure his 16.5 endurance healing aura is really doing the job while he hopes his pets auto attack things to death for 23 dmg ^_^

[killigraphy]

5 hours ago, JayboH said:

Not only is that not true, if it was true then the endurance penalty is bugged

 

In combat....obviously to summon and buff pets takes end....but running through missions its a breeze.

 

Even if I'm healing, just with regular IO's, my end is going nowhere. Even more so, if we have Time and or Nature Corr's/Defenders. Now if we're talking about full set IO's, and Incarnates....yes, end goes nowhere, and that's just fine.

[killigraphy]

2 hours ago, seresibyl3 said:

I'm sure his 16.5 endurance healing aura is really doing the job while he hopes his pets auto attack things to death for 23 dmg ^_^

 

Natrure and time are set it and forget it heals...which take no kind of end when you're slotted....

 

but sure, lets pretend my end is running out?

[JayboH]

19 hours ago, killigraphy said:

 

Natrure and time are set it and forget it heals...which take no kind of end when you're slotted....

 

but sure, lets pretend my end is running out?

Well, let's clarify that we are talking about MMs in general and not your very narrow use case of one character with a specific combo and specific build

[killigraphy]

2 hours ago, JayboH said:

Well, let's clarify that we are talking about MMs in general and not your very narrow use case of one character with a specific combo and specific build

Move the goal post all you want...but the truth is....even with just normal IO's, your end is going nowhere depending on sets....which is  my point.

 

In general however, unslotted, yes, you will run out of end if you're intensive with your secondary powers. Do I have to post vids from YT on here? There's plenty of people who record solo content, and that endurance bar goes nowhere.

 

So yes...Unslotted, your end is gonna drain (if you're blasting/healing away)

 

Slotted...its more than fine and standing still.

Edited June 22, 2020 by killigraphy

[JayboH]

19 minutes ago, killigraphy said:

Move the goal post all you want...but the truth is....even with just normal IO's, your end is going nowhere depending on sets....which is  my point.

 

In general however, unslotted, yes, you will run out of end if you're intensive with your secondary powers. Do I have to post vids from YT on here? There's plenty of people who record solo content, and that endurance bar goes nowhere.

 

So yes...Unslotted, your end is gonna drain (if you're blasting/healing away)

 

Slotted...its more than fine and standing still.

Oh, perhaps you haven't read the thread then.  Game development is still using SOs for balance.

[Coyote]

6 hours ago, JayboH said:

Oh, perhaps you haven't read the thread then.  Game development is still using SOs for balance.

 

Is it?

 

And if so, which I would be very willing to argue against... then, what is a "balanced damage output while running missions"?

I will argue that the kind of balance using SOs also means +0/x2 or so opponents, and expecting your Endurance bar to drop and occasionally using Rest.

 

So.... having a MM with your End bar dropping is EXPECTED and BALANCED if using SO, because frankly, if you're running a Tanker with just SOs you'll also have your blue bar dropping if you don't have a good End recovery option from your armor set.

 

So the argument of "MM end usage is unbalanced because their blue bar drops when on SOs" is a non-starter with me because I see ALL of my characters having problems with Endurance when only using basic IOs (and that's usually including a Panacea plus a Performance Shifter), except for a few who specifically have +Recovery or +Endurance powers. If you want your blue bar to NOT drop, then you have to be considering IO sets on MMs, but that's the case for all ATs in general.

 

I don't really buy the other argument, either, that "your blue bar stands still" when you're actively using both your primary attacks and your secondary on IOs, unless you're running Ageless. I totally can drop the End bar of almost any MM with IO sets... but that's usually at the start of the fight when putting out all of the AoE debuffs or such. In general, when fully slotted with IO sets, most MMs can sustain their power usage as long as they're not indiscriminately firing all of the powers including AoEs, and some loaded with procs rather than slotted for effect (and for endurance discount). But a single-target attack chain plus using heals is generally sustainable... leave the AoEs out and you should be okay with most builds.

[JayboH]

12 hours ago, Coyote said:

 

Is it?

According to Captain Powerhouse, it's supposed to be.

[killigraphy]

At this point, I would suggest you guys look up some MM videos, and realize that their end is only dropping because they're either attacking or summoning Pets that die. My point however, was that the end bar barely moves if all you're doing is commanding pets and healing from time to time. Coupled with how fast end game radio missions go and even BAF....your end doesn't see much movement unless you're forcing it to, with the use of toggles and everything mentioned.

[Pherdnut]

Nobody should be struggling with END in any AT in the late game with reasonable equip, IMO. MMs can, however, be a PITA in the early to mid game if you refuse to slot -END. Some of the primaries' MM attacks in particular can be thirsty.

But if you're not cycling whips repeatedly with a demons build, you're definitely playing sub-optimally, IMO. That's almost 30% worth of -res you're leaving on the table.

[kiramon]

46 minutes ago, Pherdnut said:

Nobody should be struggling with END in any AT in the late game with reasonable equip, IMO. MMs can, however, be a PITA in the early to mid game if you refuse to slot -END. Some of the primaries' MM attacks in particular can be thirsty.

But if you're not cycling whips repeatedly with a demons build, you're definitely playing sub-optimally, IMO. That's almost 30% worth of -res you're leaving on the table.

this is just not true for most non-defense set ATs— unless you mean nobody with full ageless

[JayboH]

On 6/23/2020 at 11:55 PM, Pherdnut said:

Nobody should be struggling with END in any AT in the late game with reasonable equip, IMO. MMs can, however, be a PITA in the early to mid game if you refuse to slot -END. Some of the primaries' MM attacks in particular can be thirsty.

But if you're not cycling whips repeatedly with a demons build, you're definitely playing sub-optimally, IMO. That's almost 30% worth of -res you're leaving on the table.

That's not the only argument either; you are paying for a weaker ability level in your secondaries as it is compared to the other ATs, meaning you may have to spam them more even if you are slotting twice as much end reduction

[seresibyl3]

A sample Necro/Sonic build for end drain.. 2.73recovery with 2.04/s drain.... if you add in repulsion it goes up to 2.9s drain, lol XD

 

Spoiler

Villain Plan by Mids' Reborn : Hero Designer 2.7.2.10
https://github.com/Crytilis/mids-reborn-hero-designer

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Level 50 Science Mastermind
Primary Power Set: Necromancy
Secondary Power Set: Sonic Resonance
Power Pool: Leadership
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Fighting
Ancillary Pool: Soul Mastery

Villain Profile:
Level 1: Zombie Horde -- SprMarofS-Acc/EndRdx(A), SprMarofS-Acc/Dmg(3), SprMarofS-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(3), SlbAll-Build%(7), SlbAll-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(11), OvrFrc-Dam/KB(25)
Level 1: Sonic Siphon -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Gloom -- Thn-Acc/Dmg(A), Thn-Dmg/EndRdx(25), Thn-Dmg/Rchg(31), Thn-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(31), Thn-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(33), Thn-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(48)
Level 4: Sonic Barrier -- UnbGrd-ResDam(A), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx(5), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(5), UnbGrd-Rchg/ResDam(7)
Level 6: Enchant Undead -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 8: Sonic Haven -- UnbGrd-ResDam(A), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(9), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx(9), UnbGrd-Rchg/ResDam(11)
Level 10: Life Drain -- ThfofEss-+End%(A), Apc-Dam%(34), Apc-Dmg(34), Apc-Dmg/Rchg(36), Apc-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(36), Apc-Acc/Rchg(36)
Level 12: Grave Knight -- SprCmmoft-Acc/Dmg(A), SprCmmoft-Dmg/EndRdx(13), SprCmmoft-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(13), SprCmmoft-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(15), AchHee-ResDeb%(15), ShlBrk-%Dam(17)
Level 14: Maneuvers -- RedFrt-Def/EndRdx(A), RedFrt-Def/Rchg(43), RedFrt-EndRdx/Rchg(43), RedFrt-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(43), RedFrt-Def(45), RedFrt-EndRdx(45)
Level 16: Disruption Field -- EndRdx-I(A), EndRdx-I(17)
Level 18: Soul Extraction -- SvrRgh-PetResDam(A), EdcoftheM-PetDef(19), ExpRnf-+Res(Pets)(19), CaltoArm-+Def(Pets)(23), SprCmmoft-Rchg/PetAoEDef(37)
Level 20: Sonic Dispersion -- UnbGrd-ResDam(A), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(21), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx(21), UnbGrd-EndRdx/Rchg(23)
Level 22: Tactics -- GssSynFr--ToHit(A), GssSynFr--ToHit/Rchg(40), GssSynFr--ToHit/Rchg/EndRdx(40), GssSynFr--Rchg/EndRdx(40), GssSynFr--ToHit/EndRdx(42), GssSynFr--Build%(42)
Level 24: Combat Jumping -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A)
Level 26: Lich -- SprMarofS-Dmg(A), SprMarofS-EndRdx/+Resist/+Regen(27), SprMarofS-Dmg/EndRdx(27), CldSns-%Dam(29), SphIns-ToHitDeb(29), SphIns-Acc/ToHitDeb(31)
Level 28: Sonic Repulsion -- SuddAcc--KB/+KD(A), FrcFdb-Rechg%(33), EndRdx-I(34)
Level 30: Boxing -- Empty(A)
Level 32: Dark Empowerment -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 35: Clarity -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 38: Dark Embrace -- UnbGrd-ResDam(A), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx(39), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(39), UnbGrd-Max HP%(39)
Level 41: Tough -- StdPrt-ResDam/Def+(A), GldArm-3defTpProc(42)
Level 44: Weave -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx(45), LucoftheG-Def(46), LucoftheG-Def/Rchg(46)
Level 47: Night Fall -- CldSns-%Dam(A), JvlVll-Dam%(48), JvlVll-Acc/Dmg(48)
Level 49: Soul Storm -- UnbCns-Dam%(A), NrnSht-Dam%(50), GhsWdwEmb-Dam%(50), GldNet-Dam%(37), GldJvl-Dam%(37), GldJvl-Acc/Dmg(50)
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Dash -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Slide -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Quick -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Rush -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Surge -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Supremacy 
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 4: Ninja Run 
Level 2: Swift -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Health -- Pnc-Heal/+End(A), Mrc-Rcvry+(46)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- PrfShf-End%(A), PrfShf-EndMod(33)
Level 1: Zombie 
Level 12: Grave Knight 
Level 26: Lich 
Level 50: Musculature Radial Paragon 
------------
------------
Set Bonus Totals:

• 12.5% DamageBuff(Smashing)
• 12.5% DamageBuff(Lethal)
• 12.5% DamageBuff(Fire)
• 12.5% DamageBuff(Cold)
• 12.5% DamageBuff(Energy)
• 12.5% DamageBuff(Negative)
• 12.5% DamageBuff(Toxic)
• 12.5% DamageBuff(Psionic)
• 10% Defense
• 13.5% Defense(Smashing)
• 13.5% Defense(Lethal)
• 7.25% Defense(Fire)
• 7.25% Defense(Cold)
• 12.25% Defense(Energy)
• 12.25% Defense(Negative)
• 6% Defense(Psionic)
• 21% Defense(Melee)
• 14.75% Defense(Ranged)
• 23.5% Defense(AoE)
• 60% Enhancement(RechargeTime)
• 46% Enhancement(Accuracy)
• 10% Enhancement(Max EnduranceDiscount)
• 27% SpeedFlying
• 132.5 HP (16.5%) HitPoints
• 27% JumpHeight
• 27% SpeedJumping
• MezResist(Confused) 20%
• MezResist(Held) 20%
• MezResist(Immobilized) 20%
• MezResist(Sleep) 20%
• MezResist(Stunned) 20%
• MezResist(Terrorized) 20%
• MezResist(Teleport) 100% (20% chance)
• 9% (0.15 End/sec) Recovery
• 192% (6.42 HP/sec) Regeneration
• 36.5% Resistance(Smashing)
• 36.5% Resistance(Lethal)
• 36.5% Resistance(Fire)
• 36.5% Resistance(Cold)
• 44% Resistance(Energy)
• 44% Resistance(Negative)
• 35% Resistance(Toxic)
• 35% Resistance(Psionic)
• 27% SpeedRunning
  

 

[Pherdnut]

11 hours ago, JayboH said:

That's not the only argument either; you are paying for a weaker ability level in your secondaries as it is compared to the other ATs, meaning you may have to spam them more even if you are slotting twice as much end reduction

Like compared to corruptors? Not sure what you mean. Defenders getting better support set stats makes a lot of sense. Do MMs actually cast support at a lower level?

[Pherdnut]

On 6/24/2020 at 12:42 AM, kiramon said:

this is just not true for most non-defense set ATs— unless you mean nobody with full ageless

2-3 slots in each of health and stamina + a few global -endurance set bonuses is all I've ever needed. The only ATs I don't play much of are Defenders and the hero-villain aligned ATs . I think most ATs are reasonable about end and that if there was never an END issue at any level, it would be pointless to even have END. But it's a needless PITA for MMs to struggle with their attacks for as long as they have to IMO. Too much for new players to trip on.

End-game though, never had problems. If you have a super-thirsty build, I'd be happy to help you out with it.

[kiramon]

53 minutes ago, Pherdnut said:

2-3 slots in each of health and stamina + a few global -endurance set bonuses is all I've ever needed. The only ATs I don't play much of are Defenders and the hero-villain aligned ATs . I think most ATs are reasonable about end and that if there was never an END issue at any level, it would be pointless to even have END. But it's a needless PITA for MMs to struggle with their attacks for as long as they have to IMO. Too much for new players to trip on.

End-game though, never had problems. If you have a super-thirsty build, I'd be happy to help you out with it.

Nah, I specifically build against end-problems in everything - and will not play a character that has them. I just don’t enjoy running out lol

[plainguy]

Assuming the endurance pool is the same for every AT. Wouldn't Masterminds run out of endurance sooner since they pay more for powers endurance wise then other AT of the same powers. 
You can just open up 2 instances of MIDS and look and the endurance cost numbers.. 

Further for some powers Masterminds are paying more for something much less inferior.. EG  Dual Pistol Attacks. 



 

[JayboH]

4 hours ago, Pherdnut said:

Like compared to corruptors? Not sure what you mean. Defenders getting better support set stats makes a lot of sense. Do MMs actually cast support at a lower level?

Well yes and no, I mean they can slot less end reduction and slot more of whatever boosts the main purpose of the power

[kiramon]

2 hours ago, plainguy said:

Assuming the endurance pool is the same for every AT. Wouldn't Masterminds run out of endurance sooner since they pay more for powers endurance wise then other AT of the same powers. 
You can just open up 2 instances of MIDS and look and the endurance cost numbers.. 

Further for some powers Masterminds are paying more for something much less inferior.. EG  Dual Pistol Attacks. 



 

Yes, that’s the point. People refute it cuz they slowly click powers so they get end ticks instead of being scrapper locked 🥳🥳🥳 jk

[Coyote]

10 hours ago, plainguy said:

Assuming the endurance pool is the same for every AT. Wouldn't Masterminds run out of endurance sooner since they pay more for powers endurance wise then other AT of the same powers. 

 

When acting the same way, correct.

When designing them, it was considered that MMs could save on End by not having to spend End on an attack to finish off the last stragglers, as the pets would generally do it. So you pay more per attack, but you attack less.

They also generally don't have full attack chains... Dark is the only one with a full single-target attack chain unless you fill it in with a pool attack. So again, you attack less.

 

It's certainly true that a MM attacking at a rate comparable to other ATs will bottom out its Endurance faster.

[Hopestar]

On 6/22/2020 at 3:36 AM, killigraphy said:

Move the goal post all you want...but the truth is....even with just normal IO's, your end is going nowhere depending on sets....which is  my point.

 

In general however, unslotted, yes, you will run out of end if you're intensive with your secondary powers. Do I have to post vids from YT on here? There's plenty of people who record solo content, and that endurance bar goes nowhere.

 

So yes...Unslotted, your end is gonna drain (if you're blasting/healing away)

 

Slotted...its more than fine and standing still.

Even with a full set IO'd out build, both my Demons/Elec and Beasts/Dark use a TON of endurance that I have to be super careful about. For Demons/Elec, before even using whip attacks, the End cost for keeping everyone healed, absorbed, and moving my shield with the group is just barely not made up for by the +45-55% (depending on if Perf Shifter procs) endurance I get from a super min-maxed Energizing Circuit, so I often have to slow my buffing. If I want to use Whip? Well the team better hope they don't break through the absorbs I'm spamming because I can't afford to heal AND attack. Thus I only attack hard targets like Elite Bosses and above.
For Beasts/Dark, it's the same, Call Hawk + everything in Dark is unsustainable because it not only lost it's +recovery power for MM's crappy Hold, but increased the cost of everything and just having the toggles for dark on alone (with ~ 59% end reduction!) still costs 0.9 end/s not to mention summoning my servant or using howling twilight STILL costs 22 endurance EACH with tons of end reduction in them, so goodbye chunks of endurance while I wait 21 seconds (not an exaggeration, that's literally how long it takes, with Panacea, Perf Shift, Miracle) to get that back, not counting using any other powers or any other toggles like Maneuvers or Tough.

Sorry but "even with just normal IO's, your end is going nowhere depending on sets" is not my experience and I like to believe I know how to make a half decent build. You must be standing around using passive abilities or using a Time or Kinetic both of which can recover vast amounts of endurance and shouldn't really be considered for that reason alone.

[Coyote]

2 hours ago, Hopestar said:

For Demons/Elec, before even using whip attacks, the End cost for keeping everyone healed, absorbed, and moving my shield with the group is just barely not made up for by the +45-55% (depending on if Perf Shifter procs) endurance I get from a super min-maxed Energizing Circuit, so I often have to slow my buffing.

 

I don't understand this.

Yes, I can see a /Dark MM having issues with Endurance, they have multiple toggles and no +Recovery or +Endurance.

But a slotted Energizing Circuit, if spammed, brings back over 2.5 EPS. Thats more than doubling the base endurance recovered for a character. If a Demon/EA MM can't manage Endurance burn with a power that returns better than 2 EPS, even with increased End costs for powers, how are other characters managing on a mere 3.5 EPS of recovery?

My Bots/EA recovers about 5.6 EPS if I'm spamming Energizing Circuit... since it's not a top priority to use over other powers, I still manage well over 4 EPS, and I can push it up to 5.6 or so if Endurance is really a problem. Most characters don't get that kind of recovery.

[Hopestar]

For me, using Discharge -> Rejuvenating -> Insulating -> Empowering -> Shock -> Energizing is 6.1 EPS, and while you don't spam Empowering or Shock and only need to use Discharge twice per group, substitute those for Crack and Lash and you spend about the same amount. And this is without having to spend 10 on moving the shield (bringing it up to 6.5 EPS) when your team moves. IF you have a slow team that can already take a beating, then yes, you don't have to worry about endurance.