Summaries of Henchmen pros/cons?

[TheSpiritFox]

7 hours ago, Frostweaver said:

Exactly, I used to LOVE Triage beacon, but now? with my thugs/traps it is an absolute waste of a slot. Rebirth core is incredibly useful, does it a thousand times better, and what kind of crazy person would exemplar into something that their pets cannot survive easily?
 

 

This is uninformed. The only time you turn up non-ae content is to prove a challenge. You NEVER turn up exemplar content unless you are an idiot, youtuber, challenge farmer, or farming debt badges. High level content is a breeze with rebirth core.

Traps is a non-heal set post proc changes. I wish that were otherwise, but to be fair, a better heal would make an already-incredible set brutally overpowered and a nerf magnet...in fact, it was one of the reasons proc firing was nerfed.
The only time triage beacon is even remotely useful is when
A. You screw up badly, lost all your pets, all your teammates, and the only one beating on +4 romulus is the stone tanker while you try to clear up a party wipe.

B. You are specifically in a rikti invasion or mothership raid. (meanwhile a quarter of the raid is popping everyone to full health every 1.2 seconds)
C. You are soloing an AV (instead of an EB) and you aren't using the rest of your set to make the fight go faster, you have a crappy build, AND you don't have a clue what MM commands actually do.
D. you are trying to do a Crazy challenge, and your build is specially tuned for that purpose. You succeed in the challenge, but your build is almost useless for general utility or playing for anyone else. Not many people are trying to do a MOITF with a petless mastermind solo at boosted mob mez within 1 hour 45 minutes. Your build can do it with triage beacon and double gang war. great. No one else can do it right now, or they simply don't care enough to try. Hold that medal proudly (I actually have that medal) you will be unchallenged for a LONG time.

Nope, not going to pick a power that is only useful for those three situations that never happen.
EVERY set has a few crap powers... even Time. Be happy that a set with the godlike strength of Traps has only two.

Note: You seriously should reconsider the personal insults. No one here cares about the size of your e-peen

lol the personal insults. "Do not listen to this man" is a personal insult. I'm not the one concerned about the size of my e-peen here I was just making a dramatic statement. 

 

Triage beacon is awesome and the fact that you relegated it to a few circumstances that you personally find useful because you spend your entire time at 50 and use rebirth instead doesn't change that. What kind of crazy person would exemplar into something pets can't survive easily? You do realize that people DO turn up exemp content plenty, right? Like I go on +1 to +3 non 50 TFs all the time. You're talking about personal insults while talking about situations that triage beacon is useful in like those situations do not exist and you'd have to be "crazy" to get yourself into a situation like that. 

 

But let me tell you, when you're the only support on a SBB? Triage beacon can make alot of difference and lets not forget that it lasts two goddamn minutes. Yes, it has specific uses, it's not the just like default "heal things now!" of time's heal, traps is not a set with a heal, but that doesn't mean triage beacon is a waste or useless. There are plenty of circumstances where Triage is useful, especially solo in any kind of higher level content, and pretending otherwise is not about the power itself but at this point about the fact that you just don't like it and build around it, and that's fine. 

 

You however are taking it personally that I disagree with you and acting like *I'm* uninformed because I find uses for a power you don't like. I'll repeat, I'm not the one here thinking about e-peens. You're the one talking about how people never do the things that make triage beacon useful. Meanwhile, it's helped me carry ITFs set to +4 with multiple SKs on the team. Not everything in this game is a steamroll, you just choose to only play it as a steamroll. That's fine. That's your playstyle. Do you not see the arrogance of assuming that your playstyle is the only one that exists, especially when we're talking about like... did you REALLY say no one turns up non ae content? That one statement invalidated your entire opinion on the subject. 

 

 Oh and I said it CAN fire absorb procs on anyone who's taken damage in it's radius not that it fires on all targets. At the same time, I see absorb procs up very regularly on pets who have taken damage on my thugs/traps, enough to say that if you've got the slot to spare, it's useful and I've seen that proc save pets who otherwise would have gone down, saving me resummon time, plenty. 

Edited June 4, 2020 by TheSpiritFox

[Coyote]

7 hours ago, TheSpiritFox said:

did you REALLY say no one turns up non ae content? That one statement invalidated your entire opinion on the subject. 

 

Hehe, there are posters who DON'T turn up the content at Level 1? 😉

[TheSpiritFox]

48 minutes ago, Coyote said:

 

Hehe, there are posters who DON'T turn up the content at Level 1? 😉

I literally ran Posi 1 and 2 last night at +2, I was not the lead who set the difficulty. Triage beacon in Posi 2 is fucking great, considering how bad circle mage bubbles can be for dragging out fights due to accuracy issues at low levels. Like ok, It is absolutely useless on a steamroll team. That's fair. I genuinely do not have a power that would be more actually useful to put in it's place in that situation. 

 

Also, the dude above said traps has only two useless powers. If triage beacon is one, and detonater is undoubtedly the other, that means this dude actually thinks MM trip mine is a good power outside of entertaining yourself nuking half an AV's health in a pull because you can. 

[Dixa]

1 hour ago, TheSpiritFox said:

I literally ran Posi 1 and 2 last night at +2, I was not the lead who set the difficulty. Triage beacon in Posi 2 is fucking great, considering how bad circle mage bubbles can be for dragging out fights due to accuracy issues at low levels. Like ok, It is absolutely useless on a steamroll team. That's fair. I genuinely do not have a power that would be more actually useful to put in it's place in that situation. 

 

Also, the dude above said traps has only two useless powers. If triage beacon is one, and detonater is undoubtedly the other, that means this dude actually thinks MM trip mine is a good power outside of entertaining yourself nuking half an AV's health in a pull because you can. 

traps isn't as great as you are making out to be, and with the p2w vendor now offering status protection by there is no reason not to go time if you want a generalist set.

 

triage beacon is actually trash for your pets outside of the tier 3. your tier 1 and tier 2 have too little health for it to be noticeable. 

 

there is a really good version of traps out there that is actually godmode as it turned triage beacon into a pulsing pbaoe regen that heals more per 2s pulse than any rank 1 pbaoe heal in the game, has unlimited duration and a 4s cooldown. detonator was replaced with auto turret from blasters. trip mine and caltrops are one power. web nade is aoe. ffg has unlimited duration. stuff like that. but it's not here. 

[TheSpiritFox]

2 hours ago, Dixa said:

traps isn't as great as you are making out to be, and with the p2w vendor now offering status protection by there is no reason not to go time if you want a generalist set.

 

triage beacon is actually trash for your pets outside of the tier 3. your tier 1 and tier 2 have too little health for it to be noticeable. 

 

there is a really good version of traps out there that is actually godmode as it turned triage beacon into a pulsing pbaoe regen that heals more per 2s pulse than any rank 1 pbaoe heal in the game, has unlimited duration and a 4s cooldown. detonator was replaced with auto turret from blasters. trip mine and caltrops are one power. web nade is aoe. ffg has unlimited duration. stuff like that. but it's not here. 

It's definitely noticeable if you slot it out and especially if you have the superior mark of supremacy regen aura stacked on top of it. While lower pets regen less, a higher regen rate speeds up ticks, doesn't just increase the size of them. Adding triage beacon to any fight means you can straight up ignore damage done to your pets unless it drops them below half health, they'll be back up to full before the next attack gets through the softcap. 

 

Keep in mind, that while pets with lower HP regen lower health numbers, all pets under regen go from x percent damage to full in the same time. Triage beacon decreases that time significantly, double stacked my bruiser hits like 33 hp/sec regen which is not at all insignificant. The fact that that's permanent, always on regen not like a heal I have to fire, spend further cast time and endurance on, makes it valuable. But like, I've watched my pets regen during fights and watched triage beacon be the difference between spamming heals from aid pool, and spamming powers with the occasional aid pool heal when someone takes a big hit. It supports your build from the bottom up, making you baseline more survivable and keeping your pets healthier. Saying that it's trash is looking for instant return on your investment like you get with time's heal instead of looking at it mathematically and seeing what it actually provides to your pets and how it stacks up, and the way I tend to play the game, it's useful often. Is it the best power in traps? Of course not. It's competing against the best defense power in the game, the best defense and resist debuffing power in the game, and the best AV killing power in the game, plus caltrops. But is it a solid power that benefits both teams and pets and while it does not make traps a healing set, it is absolutely good enough to be worth taking and slotting in your average MM build. It is absolutely something that, depending on how you play, can end up seeing heavy use and being very useful. It is adding a new layer of damage mitigation to your pets who already lack lots of damage mitigation. 

Edited June 5, 2020 by TheSpiritFox

[Hjarki]

On 6/3/2020 at 8:40 PM, Dixa said:

While I believe EA would be tougher, EA does not have the offensive punch that thermal does through it's debuffs.

The long recharge/duration on the debuffs tends to mean that they're only useful on AV/GM fights. For chewing through trash, EA is going to move at the same speed or faster. Even on a boss, there's a reasonable argument to be made that the recharge can be more valuable than the -resist in many situations.

 

I think the larger issues:

• EA is significantly 'tankier' than Thermal for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is that all of its abilities can also apply to the user.
• EA requires more discipline than Thermal. When your demons run amuck all over the place with Thermal, they retain their resists. When they do so with EA, they don't. However, since your demons-run-amuck also lose all their def/resist buffs from uniques/Supremacy (albeit at a slightly longer range), I'm not sure how much of a disadvantage this really is.

On 6/3/2020 at 8:08 PM, Dixa said:

status protection shouldn't even be considered anymore. you can buy it for an hour at a time on these servers. 

I don't really agree with this approach, since it's an effectively an 'everything is all the same anyway' type of argument. The 2.5M/hour cost also adds up quickly when you're talking covering a weakness that you need to cover 100% of the time. In addition, I don't believe amplifiers affect pets.

[Redlynne]

On 6/3/2020 at 7:08 PM, Dixa said:

status protection shouldn't even be considered anymore. you can buy it for an hour at a time on these servers. 

2.5 million INF may be a pittance for a Level 50 sugar daddy ... but it's a pretty steep cost for anyone who is leveling up and doesn't already have a Level 50 to "hand me down" plenty of INF from.

[tidge]

Oh, Triage Beacon;

A spinning aura of what?

Not Health but Regen.

 

I definitely don't think Triage Beacon is even in the bottom three of Homecoming MM /Traps powers. It is not a good choice for fast-moving teams, but if a fight is going to stay in one place for a while, I find that shortening the time between healing tics is quite helpful. I have Preventive Medicine %Absorb slotted in Triage Beacon, but I never noticed a pet getting an Absorb layer from it.

 

As I wrote elsewhere: I skipped Triage Beacon for the Medicine pool while leveling. While leveling I felt that the on-demand Healing was more useful than +Regen; but I reversed the decision at the level 50 respec. The only time I can say that I really missed not having Triage Beacon was on the Positron TF parts 1 & 2.

[Riverdusk]

I'd still like to see triage beacon (and spirit tree) have their recharge cut in half (could also cut duration in half to keep it "balanced").  That alone would make it much more useful as you could get it out more often.  Most of the time a team moves on way before the duration expires anyway.  Seems like an easy fix.

[Dixa]

16 hours ago, Hjarki said:

The long recharge/duration on the debuffs tends to mean that they're only useful on AV/GM fights. For chewing through trash, EA is going to move at the same speed or faster. Even on a boss, there's a reasonable argument to be made that the recharge can be more valuable than the -resist in many situations.

 

I think the larger issues:

• EA is significantly 'tankier' than Thermal for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is that all of its abilities can also apply to the user.
• EA requires more discipline than Thermal. When your demons run amuck all over the place with Thermal, they retain their resists. When they do so with EA, they don't. However, since your demons-run-amuck also lose all their def/resist buffs from uniques/Supremacy (albeit at a slightly longer range), I'm not sure how much of a disadvantage this really is.

I don't really agree with this approach, since it's an effectively an 'everything is all the same anyway' type of argument. The 2.5M/hour cost also adds up quickly when you're talking covering a weakness that you need to cover 100% of the time. In addition, I don't believe amplifiers affect pets.

the -recharge is very minor depending on how far down the chain you are when it hits you and only affects you, not the pets. 

 

besides, bosses and av/gm is all that matters. if killing packs is your priority, then your choice of primary would also be different. 

 

Do not forget that thermal also has -500% regen, -37% dmg, and -22% def that lasts for 40s and both powers that drops these debuffs are easy to make perma.

Edited June 5, 2020 by Dixa

[Hjarki]

2 hours ago, Dixa said:

the -recharge is very minor depending on how far down the chain you are when it hits you and only affects you, not the pets. 

 

besides, bosses and av/gm is all that matters. if killing packs is your priority, then your choice of primary would also be different. 

 

Do not forget that thermal also has -500% regen, -37% dmg, and -22% def that lasts for 40s and both powers that drops these debuffs are easy to make perma.

The +recharge is 62.5% no matter how far down the chain you are. The first hit is full strength, all other hits are half strength.

 

Shock/Discharge can stack similar performance to Heat Exhaustion in terms of -regen/-damage if you so choose. You rarely would (because these aren't actually all that useful these days), but you potentially could. The -defense is irrelevant since you're already hitting 95% of the time in almost any reasonable build.

 

In terms of the importance of AV/GM, speed is rarely the issue. Survival is the issue - and EA has the advantage there.

[Dixa]

1 hour ago, Hjarki said:

The +recharge is 62.5% no matter how far down the chain you are. The first hit is full strength, all other hits are half strength.

 

Shock/Discharge can stack similar performance to Heat Exhaustion in terms of -regen/-damage if you so choose. You rarely would (because these aren't actually all that useful these days), but you potentially could. The -defense is irrelevant since you're already hitting 95% of the time in almost any reasonable build.

 

In terms of the importance of AV/GM, speed is rarely the issue. Survival is the issue - and EA has the advantage there.

I have yet to see any proof that the -regen in ea stacks with itself 

[Hjarki]

5 hours ago, Dixa said:

I have yet to see any proof that the -regen in ea stacks with itself 

Go onto the test server and roll up a character with Electrical Affinity. Buy a Power Analyzer from the P2W Vendor. Go find some random Hellion, use the Power Analyzer and then hit it with Shock multiple times. You'll notice the effect stacking (until you floor their regen).

[Dixa]

11 hours ago, Hjarki said:

Go onto the test server and roll up a character with Electrical Affinity. Buy a Power Analyzer from the P2W Vendor. Go find some random Hellion, use the Power Analyzer and then hit it with Shock multiple times. You'll notice the effect stacking (until you floor their regen).

I don't have time for that but if true that would give a huge edge for EA offensively, because I can tell you that from experience not many powers will do that. 

[Riverdusk]

45 minutes ago, Dixa said:

I don't have time for that but if true that would give a huge edge for EA offensively, because I can tell you that from experience not many powers will do that. 

Yeah, it is very inconsistent.  I had people swear /time's -regen debuffs stacked, but went on to test server to confirm they do NOT.  Then I was surprised when testing /dark's twilight grasp and finding it did stack.

[kiramon]

I built up my necro/thermal fully iod and for the most part they become super survivable!! But they were still too slow to be enjoyable on a team 😞

 

maybe I’ll try wolves ...

Edited June 6, 2020 by kiramon

[Force Redux]

Wolves are fast. Far cry from the zombies. Sometimes too fast, Make sure to keep them on Defensive if you aren't sure about aggroing nearby groups. When they get /kin buffs, they are capable of breaking the sound barrier 😛

[JayboH]

On 6/5/2020 at 3:13 PM, Riverdusk said:

I'd still like to see triage beacon (and spirit tree) have their recharge cut in half (could also cut duration in half to keep it "balanced").  That alone would make it much more useful as you could get it out more often.  Most of the time a team moves on way before the duration expires anyway.  Seems like an easy fix.

Yep.  Limit it to 1 summon at a time but make the recharge vastly shorter.  300% regen DOES affect tier 1 pets.

 

Change the time bomb in other ATs to gun drone and keep trip mine.

[JayboH]

On 5/30/2020 at 10:39 AM, Force Redux said:

Thugs - top performer (tied with Demons) - also tanky due to Enforcer buffs, but these do not affect the MM (unlike Bots, which will buff the MM). High damage, both ST and AoE (much of the AoE is tied to Arsonist, so you have to keep him alive -easier with the improved pet AI. The damage is more spread out between all the pets, so easier to level up than Bots. Can take more procs in the Enforcers than some sets (-resist, damage procs). Bruiser gets fury as a mini-brute. Arsonist is a mini-Corruptor with scourge. Brute is melee, rest are ranged. Again, new pet AI makes this much more manageable as Brute doesn't wander off too far. Works best IMO with sets that boost defense, but again, they are so good they benefit from almost anything.  Comes with Gang War, which is an excellent power as well as a MM proc mule. KEY WORDS: DAMAGE, AOE, COOL

 

Thugs Secondary Pairings: Recommend with Time, Dark, Thermal, Pain or Cold.

I know you had a disclaimer at the bottom but I think you might be sleeping on Thugs/Traps.  That combo is ridiculous.

[kiramon]

1 hour ago, Force Redux said:

Wolves are fast. Far cry from the zombies. Sometimes too fast, Make sure to keep them on Defensive if you aren't sure about aggroing nearby groups. When they get /kin buffs, they are capable of breaking the sound barrier 😛

I’m thinking beast/sonic... or time lol

[Force Redux]

26 minutes ago, JayboH said:

I know you had a disclaimer at the bottom but I think you might be sleeping on Thugs/Traps.  That combo is ridiculous.

I'm sure it is! 😀

[Force Redux]

18 minutes ago, kiramon said:

I’m thinking beast/sonic... or time lol

My Beast/Time is awesome, fun, and chews up things. Easy to level, too.

[kiramon]

4 minutes ago, Force Redux said:

My Beast/Time is awesome, fun, and chews up things. Easy to level, too.

Well, I only play at 50 and just powerlevel everything to use a full build these days... so there's that... lol

[JayboH]

1 minute ago, Force Redux said:

I'm sure it is! 😀

I mean, it softcaps your men, it's got massive -regen, Acid Mortar fires 10 times each summon and can be loaded up with 5 procs and a purple for acc/rech, Poison Trap can slot at least 4 procs, grab web envelope to keep mobs in the pyro patches, etc.

 

I was messing around with this before shutdown:

 

Villain Plan by Mids' Reborn : Hero Designer 2.6.0.7
https://github.com/Crytilis/mids-reborn-hero-designer

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Super Punx: Level 50 Technology Mastermind
Primary Power Set: Thugs
Secondary Power Set: Traps
Power Pool: Leadership
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Medicine
Power Pool: Speed
Ancillary Pool: Mace Mastery

Villain Profile:
Level 1: Call Thugs -- SprMarofS-Dmg(A), SprMarofS-Dmg/EndRdx(3), SprMarofS-Acc/Dmg(3), SprMarofS-Acc/EndRdx(5), SprMarofS-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(5), SprMarofS-EndRdx/+Resist/+Regen(7)
Level 1: Web Grenade -- EnfOpr-Acc/Rchg(A)
Level 2: Caltrops -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 4: Triage Beacon -- DctWnd-Heal/Rchg(A), Pnc-Heal/+End(7), Pnc-Heal/EndRedux/Rchg(9), Pnc-Heal/Rchg(9), Pnc-EndRdx/Rchg(11), Pnc-Heal/EndRedux(11)
Level 6: Equip Thugs -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 8: Maneuvers -- LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx(A), LucoftheG-Def(17), RedFrt-Def/EndRdx(17), LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(19)
Level 10: Acid Mortar -- JvlVll-Dam%(A), AchHee-ResDeb%(19), Rgn-Acc/Rchg(21), ShlBrk-%Dam(21), TchofLadG-%Dam(23), PstBls-Dam%(23)
Level 12: Call Enforcer -- BldMnd-Acc/Dmg(A), DefBuff-I(27), BldMnd-Dmg/EndRdx(25), BldMnd-Acc/EndRdx(25), BldMnd-Dmg(15), DefBuff-I(27)
Level 14: Super Jump -- Jump-I(A)
Level 16: Force Field Generator -- LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(A), LucoftheG-Def/Rchg(29), LucoftheG-Def(31), LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(31)
Level 18: Gang War -- RechRdx-I(A), SprCmmoft-Rchg/PetAoEDef(31), CaltoArm-+Def(Pets)(39), EdcoftheM-PetDef(43), SvrRgh-PetResDam(45), ExpRnf-+Res(Pets)(50)
Level 20: Poison Trap -- RechRdx-I(A), Lck-Rchg/Hold(33), NrnSht-Dam%(33), Lck-%Hold(33), GhsWdwEmb-Dam%(34), UnbCns-Dam%(34)
Level 22: Tactics -- AdjTrg-ToHit(A), AdjTrg-ToHit/Rchg(34), AdjTrg-ToHit/EndRdx/Rchg(36), AdjTrg-EndRdx/Rchg(36), AdjTrg-ToHit/EndRdx(36)
Level 24: Aid Other -- DctWnd-Rchg(A), DctWnd-Heal/EndRdx(37), DctWnd-EndRdx/Rchg(37), DctWnd-Heal/Rchg(37), DctWnd-Heal/EndRdx/Rchg(39)
Level 26: Call Bruiser -- SprCmmoft-Acc/Dmg(A), SprCmmoft-Dmg/EndRdx(29), SprCmmoft-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(39), SprCmmoft-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(40), SprCmmoft-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(40), SlbAll-Build%(42)
Level 28: Seeker Drones -- CldSns-Acc/ToHitDeb(A), CldSns-Acc/Rchg(42), CldSns-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(42), CldSns-%Dam(43)
Level 30: Assault -- EndRdx-I(A), EndRdx-I(40)
Level 32: Upgrade Equipment -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 35: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(43), RechRdx-I(50)
Level 38: Scorpion Shield -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), RedFrt-Def(45), RedFrt-Def/EndRdx(45), RedFrt-EndRdx/Rchg(46), RedFrt-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(46)
Level 41: Web Envelope -- GrvAnc-Acc/Immob/Rchg(A), GrvAnc-Acc/Rchg(46), GrvAnc-Immob/Rchg(48), GrvAnc-Hold%(48), GrvAnc-Immob/EndRdx(50)
Level 44: Vengeance -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A)
Level 47: Combat Jumping -- Krm-ResKB(A), LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(48)
Level 49: Trip Mine -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Dash -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Slide -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Quick -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Rush -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Surge -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Supremacy
Level 2: Rest -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 4: Ninja Run
Level 4: Swift -- Run-I(A)
Level 4: Health -- NmnCnv-Regen/Rcvry+(A), Mrc-Rcvry+(13)
Level 4: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A)
Level 4: Stamina -- EndMod-I(A), EndMod-I(13), PrfShf-End%(15)
Level 50: Agility Core Paragon
Level 50: Spectral Radial Flawless Interface
Level 50: Robotic Drones Core Superior Ally
Level 50: Barrier Core Epiphany
Level 1: Punk
Level 1: Arsonist
Level 26: Bruiser
Level 12: Enforcer
------------

 

 

[Coyote]

On 6/5/2020 at 10:30 PM, Dixa said:

I have yet to see any proof that the -regen in ea stacks with itself 

 

Just confirmed it for Shock, didn't test Discharge. The -Regen and -Recovery stacked at least 3 times. Unfortunately I didn't think to test the -Damage, though I assume if one aspect of the debuff stacks, then so would the others.