omg War Mace + Energy Aura so strong!

[Swiftmage]

https://web.archive.org/web/20120906164029/http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=124689

 

I loved this thread.

[Rylas]

Lookin' so pretty and STRONG.

[Gobbledygook]

https://web.archive.org/web/20120906164029/http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=124689

 

I loved this thread.

 

You're making my altitis worse!

I think I have to roll one now, damn it!

[Erratic1]

Sad thing is I saw the title of this thread and had an immediate sense of déjà vu.

[subbacultchas]

This makes me so happy still.

 

Mr Playskool we could use your humor if you're still out there.

[Generator]

Somehow, an EM/EA Brute was my first level-cap villain.  It was like a bumblebee, I flew before anyone told me I was supposed to crash.  I might have to make another one, try taking her out for a spin.

[Frostweaver]

 

Looks like my sins come back to haunt me.

[Ramsen]

It's actually a solid setup now ;o

[Auroxis]

Yep, can get pretty crazy

 

[Brutal Justice]

You were able to cap resistance, have that much recharge, way over soft cap defense, and have that much regen just from set bonuses?  Or is there a temp power running that is boosting some of those numbers?

 

I don’t have pines  and haven’t gotten back into IO’s yet but if those numbers are purely from pool powers and set bonuses then IO’s have truly gotten out of control.

 

[marcussmythe]

DEF is being driven by (I think) deep set bonuses and Agility alpha Slot multiplying already high defense values.

 

Id guess the RES and REGEN numbers are from a target saturated melee hybrid.

 

Impressive.

[Brutal Justice]

I can understand all the def from the set bonuses.  It’s the ability to pick up somewhere around 70 resistance to all damage and actually hit the hard cap for smash and lethal.  So it’s incarnate stuff that’s driving the resist and regen?  I never really got into the incarnate system before shut down.

[marcussmythe]

Incarnate stuff is so crazy that it can overshadow the underlying character entirely.

 

Consider a Tier 4 Barrier.  Though its benefit fades over its 2 minute duration, when first activated, it is, all by its lonesome, something like 90% Resist and 90% DEF to every category, for you and your friends.

 

Now consider a team of 8 incarnates - each firing barrier 15 seconds after the one before them...

[Auroxis]

Well even without any incarnate buffs to resists it's still at 65% S/L res. Here's the latest revision of the build so you can check it yourself:

 

Villain Plan by Mids' Villain Designer 1.962

http://www.cohplanner.com/

 

Click this DataLink to open the build!

 

Strong and Pretty: Level 50 Magic Brute

Primary Power Set: War Mace

Secondary Power Set: Energy Aura

Power Pool: Speed

Power Pool: Fighting

Power Pool: Leaping

Ancillary Pool: Mu Mastery

 

Villain Profile:

Level 1: Pulverize -- KntCmb-Acc/Dmg(A), KntCmb-Dmg/EndRdx(3), KntCmb-Dmg/Rchg(3), KntCmb-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(5)

Level 1: Kinetic Shield -- Rct-ResDam%(A), Rct-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(13), Rct-EndRdx/Rchg(15), Rct-Def/Rchg(15), Rct-Def(17), Rct-Def/EndRdx(40)

Level 2: Jawbreaker -- SprBrtFur-Acc/Dmg(A), SprBrtFur-Dmg/Rchg(5), SprBrtFur-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(7), SprBrtFur-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(7), SprBrtFur-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(25), SprBrtFur-Rech/Fury(37)

Level 4: Power Shield -- LucoftheG-Rchg+(A), LucoftheG-Def(40), LucoftheG-Def/Rchg(42), LucoftheG-EndRdx/Rchg(42), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(42), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx(43)

Level 6: Dampening Field -- StdPrt-ResDam/Def+(A), GldArm-3defTpProc(23)

Level 8: Clobber -- Hct-Dam%(A), Hct-Dmg/EndRdx(9), Hct-Acc/Rchg(9), Hct-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(11), Hct-Dmg/Rchg(11), Hct-Dmg(13)

Level 10: Entropic Aura -- EndRdx-I(A)

Level 12: Super Speed -- WntGif-ResSlow(A)

Level 14: Boxing -- Acc-I(A)

Level 16: Tough -- Ags-Psi/Status(A), Ags-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(17), Ags-ResDam/EndRdx(39), Ags-ResDam(39)

Level 18: Whirling Mace -- Arm-Dam%(A), Arm-Dmg/EndRdx(19), Arm-Acc/Rchg(19), Arm-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(21), Arm-Dmg/Rchg(21), Arm-Dmg(23)

Level 20: Energy Cloak -- ShlWal-ResDam/Re TP(A), ShlWal-Def(31), ShlWal-Def/EndRdx(40), ShlWal-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(43)

Level 22: Weave -- LucoftheG-Rchg+(A), LucoftheG-Def(25), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx(27), LucoftheG-Def/Rchg(29), LucoftheG-EndRdx/Rchg(43), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(45)

Level 24: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(39)

Level 26: Shatter -- Erd-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(A), Erd-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(27), Erd-Dmg/Rchg(31), Erd-Dmg(31), FuroftheG-ResDeb%(34)

Level 28: Energy Drain -- LucoftheG-Rchg+(A), LucoftheG-Def(29)

Level 30: Combat Jumping -- LucoftheG-Rchg+(A)

Level 32: Crowd Control -- SprUnrFur-Acc/Dmg(A), SprUnrFur-Dmg/Rchg(33), SprUnrFur-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(33), SprUnrFur-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(33), SprUnrFur-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(34), SprUnrFur-Rchg/+Regen/+End(34)

Level 35: Energize -- Prv-Absorb%(A), Prv-Heal/Rchg/EndRdx(36), Prv-Heal/Rchg(36), Prv-EndRdx/Rchg(36), Prv-Heal/EndRdx(37), Prv-Heal(37)

Level 38: Electrifying Fences -- Acc-I(A)

Level 41: Ball Lightning -- Rgn-Knock%(A), Rgn-Dmg/EndRdx(45), Rgn-Acc/Rchg(45), Rgn-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(46), Rgn-Dmg/Rchg(46), Rgn-Dmg(46)

Level 44: Taunt -- MckBrt-Taunt(A), MckBrt-Taunt/Rchg(48), MckBrt-Taunt/Rchg/Rng(48), MckBrt-Acc/Rchg(48), MckBrt-Taunt/Rng(50), MckBrt-Rchg(50)

Level 47: Energy Protection -- UnbGrd-Max HP%(A)

Level 49: Overload -- LucoftheG-Rchg+(A)

Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)

Level 1: Prestige Power Dash -- Empty(A)

Level 1: Prestige Power Slide -- Empty(A)

Level 1: Prestige Power Quick -- Empty(A)

Level 1: Prestige Power Rush -- Empty(A)

Level 1: Prestige Power Surge -- Empty(A)

Level 1: Fury

Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)

Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)

Level 4: Ninja Run

Level 2: Swift -- Run-I(A)

Level 2: Health -- NmnCnv-Regen/Rcvry+(A)

Level 2: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A)

Level 2: Stamina -- EndMod-I(A), EndMod-I(50)

Level 50: Agility Core Paragon

Level 0: Born In Battle

Level 0: High Pain Threshold

Level 0: Invader

Level 0: Marshal

Level 50: Melee Core Embodiment

------------

 

 

 

 

[marcussmythe]

Im not surprised.  Its a solid DEF Base with some additional resist.  Im starting to think that in an IO world, such sets are going to show very well indeed, as you will at the worst inadvertently buff the res while driving the def up to desired levels.

 

Its kinda odd how EA and Invuln start to look alike after you IO them.

[Brutal Justice]

It looks like once you’re into the incarnate stuff that brutes completely trivialize tanks even more than they already did with IO’s.  That’s unfortunate.

[marcussmythe]

Yes and no?  Frankly, with Incarnates anyone can do much of anything (as discussed, Barrier alone means everyone on the team is resist and defense capped and overcapped all at once).

 

But, assuming all things are equal (same sets, and as close as possible to equivalent slotting:)

 

The Tank will have more hit points, unless the Brute can force its way to cap (this is not easy)

 

The Tank will have more defense and res than a similar brute.  Even if they get to the same resist caps, the Tank will have more DEF, and expend less build resources getting there.

 

The Tank will always have better aggro control.

 

The Brute will always do more damage.

 

Therefore, the question is 'are you willing to give up damage for more HP, more DEF, an easier trip to the DEF and RES cap, and better aggro management'.  If Y, then Tank, if N, then Brute.

 

A more compelling question is 'does the tanks advantage in survivability bring anything of real value to the table, given how tough a brute can get' - And thats a question worth asking.  Frankly, though the Tank ends up meaningfully tougher, Im not sure the extra toughness brings much value at IO-Purple-Incarnate Endgame. 

 

However, the aggro management advantage never goes away, and the additional survivability may be important for when Things Go Wrong.  (Sooner or Later - things always go wrong)

 

Therefore, while for an 'I just wanna play CoH and take whatever comes along', Brute is arguably a better choice, (being able to easily solo at high speed through challenging content and also an entirely worthwhile tank for almost any content), if ones focus is on -being a tank- first, then one should be a Tank, as one -will- be, all things being equal, better at aggro control and tougher.

 

 

[Brutal Justice]

An invulnerable brute can be mere points within as tanky as an invulnerable tank.  Hitting defense soft cap is pretty easy, perma dull pain is not too difficult at the same time which brings your hp into the 3200 range. This thread also shows how easily incarnates can hit the 90% res cap as well.  A brute that can hit the same caps as a tank on its own is just as tanky. 

 

Gauntlet doesn’t provide any more Aggro control than a brute can have.  At low levels it does but not once the brute starts throwing aoes.  If a tank and a brute are both punching the same target the brute will take the aggro.  If the tank taunts, the brute taunts, same tools, brute takes the aggro.  If the tank can keep the aggro off the brute, who is he keeping it off of?  Only the brute, who doesn’t need the tanker.  The brute will far outdamage the tank.

 

Sure a tank might hit 75% def instead of 64% in the build above, but that extra defense doesn’t do anything.  90% resistance is a hard cap. The tank can do it easier but the 15% difference in base resistance is nothing for that incarnate power.  That energy aura build had in the 60’s resistance to everything.  A tank version might have 3 more points of resistance and 500 more hp?  Trivial.  I love tanks, but that build showed me there is nothing a tank can do a brute can’t do with more damage.

[marcussmythe]

An invulnerable brute can be mere points within as tanky as an invulnerable tank.  Hitting defense soft cap is pretty easy, perma dull pain is not too difficult at the same time which brings your hp into the 3200 range. This thread also shows how easily incarnates can hit the 90% res cap as well.  A brute that can hit the same caps as a tank on its own is just as tanky. 

 

Gauntlet doesn’t provide any more Aggro control than a brute can have.  At low levels it does but not once the brute starts throwing aoes.  If a tank and a brute are both punching the same target the brute will take the aggro.  If the tank taunts, the brute taunts, same tools, brute takes the aggro.  If the tank can keep the aggro off the brute, who is he keeping it off of?  Only the brute, who doesn’t need the tanker.  The brute will far outdamage the tank.

 

Sure a tank might hit 75% def instead of 64% in the build above, but that extra defense doesn’t do anything.  90% resistance is a hard cap. The tank can do it easier but the 15% difference in base resistance is nothing for that incarnate power.  That energy aura build had in the 60’s resistance to everything.  A tank version might have 3 more points of resistance and 500 more hp?  Trivial.  I love tanks, but that build showed me there is nothing a tank can do a brute can’t do with more damage.

 

Well, Id not argue against a further tank buff, to be honest, but Im not sure where you put it.  If you give them Brute damage, the Brutes just lost _THEIR_ role. (I think brutes are a damn near perfect AT, at the moment - as are Scrappers and Stalkers - Stalkers may be a bit over-tuned, TBH).

 

Perhaps proliferating Bruising to all the tanker's attacks, and allowing it to stack up to a point, would fix matters?  Im curious as to what you would suggest.

[Auroxis]

I like buffing Leadership to Defender levels and increasing their aggro cap.

[marcussmythe]

Maybe?  Idk if it would be enough to make a difference in AT choice - Im almost never aggro capped in TF play on my tanks.  Couldnt hurt.

 

Im likely to remain a proponent of a buff to bruising - because tbh, a 20% res debuff on one AT compared to an up to 200% (and for my brute usually at least 160%) Dambuff on the one next door is a bit out of whack.

[Brutal Justice]

I have never really thought about it because I never really knew the current state of brutes.  I don’t think taking anything away from brutes would be right.  I don’t think tanks need any of their personal stats buffed. That would leave me with some sort of benefit to the team, which I feel would be in line with a tanker mentality.  Inherent leadership of some sort.  A smaller inherent vengeance type power if somebody dies on your team.  Something team oriented. They can solo just fine already so I wouldn’t be too worried about it not doing anything there. Gauntlet is already useless solo so no big deal.