Blaster Primary Comparison: Standard Environment Testing

[Galaxy Brain]

Tbh, I'd much rather combine Ignite and Flamethrower now where FT is the same, but creates Ignite on the targeted enemy you select for FT.

[Galaxy Brain]

On 1/18/2021 at 7:43 PM, Haijinx said:

Thanks, I think Energy Torrent an underrated power.  Nice wide cone and quick animation. 

 

But yeah without KB->KD enhancements Energy Blast scatters baddies around 

Actually ended up redoing Energy Blast since I could easily replace some enhancements with the infinite endurance you get while invincible in AE, making sure to keep the same Rech/Dam/Acc values as before and well....

 

Energy Blast Knockback = 8:51 avg

Energy Blast Knockdown = 7:47 avg

 

Also did the same with AR:

 

AR KB = 10:27

AR KD = 9:01

[Haijinx]

Sad that AR does so badly since its hallmarked as a AOE set

[Galaxy Brain]

Actually, realized the "Radial" KB of explosive arrow may have issues too, as well as Umbral Torrent on Dark with the different cone lengths.

Archery KB = 8:40

Archery KD = 7:50

 

Dark KB = 9:35

Dark KD = 8:39

 

Oh, and Sonic's Shockwave...

 

Sonic KB = 11:27

Sonic KD = 10:12

 

These all make sense tbh... over the course of 10 encounters in the mission sim, having KB make you have to take say 2-3 extra shots per fight would easily take up about a minute. Lets compare:

 

  

 

 

Wow, KD makes a HUGE difference when you look side by side! This is the same test as before (0/8 invincible with SO values, sets like Energy and AR had to emulate values with Tactics/etc but the hit chances between +0/+1 enemies were identical in the end while fitting in Sudden Acceleration/Overwhelming force) with the only real difference being that enemy scatter was greatly mitigated. Of note is Energy Blast which legit SKYROCKETED to 2nd place overall behind fire with it's KB mitigated.

 

Just for giggles too, lets compare the Scrapper results in the same test with their (few) KD-ified sets:

 

 

Nice to see Blasters take the cake still with clearing mobs 😉

 

 

Edited January 25, 2021 by Galaxy Brain

[Haijinx]

The more I see on these, the better and better War Mace looks as an overall Attack Set 

[Hjarki]

I'm not sure if you included it, but you might include Force Feedback in your KB adjustments. On single target attacks, it's nice enough - but on AE attacks, it dramatically increases the cyclic rate.

[Galaxy Brain]

13 hours ago, Hjarki said:

I'm not sure if you included it, but you might include Force Feedback in your KB adjustments. On single target attacks, it's nice enough - but on AE attacks, it dramatically increases the cyclic rate.

Ok, so that opens the door to all IO's then? 

[Erratic1]

27 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Ok, so that opens the door to all IO's then? 

Forced Feedback is as fundamental a shift to function as KB->KD. Moreover Force Feedback is dirt cheap on the AH. 

 

I cannot think of any other IOs which stand to do so much for so little investment.

[Galaxy Brain]

12 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

Forced Feedback is as fundamental a shift to function as KB->KD. Moreover Force Feedback is dirt cheap on the AH. 

 

I cannot think of any other IOs which stand to do so much for so little investment.

The difference is that FF adds power directly while Sudden Acceleration is sort of a side-grade, if that makes sense. You can slap FF over a Recharge enhancement and odds are it is straight up far better, whereas you need to give something up slot-wise to fit in SA unless it's Overwhelming Force. 

 

If I open the door to FF, then Achille's Heel, Damage Procs, etc are on the table too.

[Erratic1]

1 minute ago, Galaxy Brain said:

The difference is that FF adds power directly while Sudden Acceleration is sort of a side-grade, if that makes sense. You can slap FF over a Recharge enhancement and odds are it is straight up far better, whereas you need to give something up slot-wise to fit in SA unless it's Overwhelming Force. 

 

If I open the door to FF, then Achille's Heel, Damage Procs, etc are on the table too.

 Fair point.

 

I think part of what troubles me is that eve with all of the qualification on what the ranking of powers is meant to indicate some chunk of the populace is simply going to hop to the last pages and walk away with, "X good, Y bad".  KB->KD took Energy Blast from 9th to 2nd. But perhaps its okay to stop there and leave it to players willing to go beyond the simple take away to see if they can push Energy Blast (or any of the KB sets) further up the list by milking Force Feedback. 

[Nemu]

You might want to hide those results. The KB lovers, they are coming....

[Galaxy Brain]

25 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

 Fair point.

 

I think part of what troubles me is that eve with all of the qualification on what the ranking of powers is meant to indicate some chunk of the populace is simply going to hop to the last pages and walk away with, "X good, Y bad".  KB->KD took Energy Blast from 9th to 2nd. But perhaps its okay to stop there and leave it to players willing to go beyond the simple take away to see if they can push Energy Blast (or any of the KB sets) further up the list by milking Force Feedback. 

The highlight is really my goal here with how I start these at SO-level, the performance-floor if you will lol. 

 

However, the point with Energy is solid as it made an EXTREME jump, but it also had SA slotted literally everywhere compared to the other sets which had at most 2 powers slotted so it's kind of an outlier there. 

[Hjarki]

54 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

The difference is that FF adds power directly while Sudden Acceleration is sort of a side-grade, if that makes sense. You can slap FF over a Recharge enhancement and odds are it is straight up far better, whereas you need to give something up slot-wise to fit in SA unless it's Overwhelming Force. 

 

If I open the door to FF, then Achille's Heel, Damage Procs, etc are on the table too.

I think there's definitely an issue with deciding on a limiting principle.

 

In terms of Achilles' Heel, my suspicion is that if you did try it, it wouldn't significantly alter your results. AH is primarily of use on long, ST fights (AV/GM), so it's not going to substantially alter the speed you can do mixed AE/ST content like your tests.

 

Damage procs are also probably outside of your concern. While 'proc monsters' are common with Defenders and other low damage AT, they just don't have the payoff over straight slotting for Blasters due to the relatively high base damage. If you look at the best Blaster builds, you'd be hard-pressed to find the kind of ridiculous franken-slotting you see with Defender builds. Given this, it's reasonable to argue that Radiation being able to slot 2 more procs/power than Fire isn't a meaningful distinction since they'll be both be straight-slotting those powers and just getting whatever procs naturally come with that approach. The cost of being a 'proc monster' as a Blaster is simply too high, so we can ignore the complexities it might bring to your analysis.

 

But Knockback is different.

 

As you noticed, powers like Energy Torrent are wildly different in character from their native versions and the knockback-suppressed versions. Likewise, Force Feedback is a core justification for many sets because it doesn't just make one power better but has an impact across your entire build. Consider Fireball vs. Explosive Arrow. They're virtually the same power, except that Fireball does 35% more damage and Explosive Arrow does KB (that needs to be suppressed to make it useable). But on a perma-Hasten build, simply having Explosive Arrow in your arsenal with SA/FF means your entire build is running 25% faster (if you can find enough targets to regularly blow up).

 

Ask yourself this question: "Which does better AE damage - Fire Blast or Archery?". If you just look at the base numbers or SO builds, the answer is easy: Fire. I don't even need to go through a blizzard of math to convince you Fire is better AE than Archery because you already know it - and you probably knew it long before you ran your tests. But if I ask the same question in the context of FF/SA, the answer is probably reversed. The massive recharge bonus doesn't just make Explosive Arrow better, it makes the entire rotation better as well as lowering the recharge on abilities like Aim/Build Up.

 

Almost no one chooses Radiation Blast due to Achilles' Heel and the +2 procs/power. But the FF/SA possibilities are central to why players choose certain sets.

 

[Lancek]

My God, Fire is disgusting

Edited February 1, 2021 by Lancek

[Galaxy Brain]

38 minutes ago, Hjarki said:

I think there's definitely an issue with deciding on a limiting principle.

 

In terms of Achilles' Heel, my suspicion is that if you did try it, it wouldn't significantly alter your results. AH is primarily of use on long, ST fights (AV/GM), so it's not going to substantially alter the speed you can do mixed AE/ST content like your tests.

 

Damage procs are also probably outside of your concern. While 'proc monsters' are common with Defenders and other low damage AT, they just don't have the payoff over straight slotting for Blasters due to the relatively high base damage. If you look at the best Blaster builds, you'd be hard-pressed to find the kind of ridiculous franken-slotting you see with Defender builds. Given this, it's reasonable to argue that Radiation being able to slot 2 more procs/power than Fire isn't a meaningful distinction since they'll be both be straight-slotting those powers and just getting whatever procs naturally come with that approach. The cost of being a 'proc monster' as a Blaster is simply too high, so we can ignore the complexities it might bring to your analysis.

I think AH may actually have a bigger factor than we may give credit for given there are several mandatory boss fights + an EB fight in the test mission. With several sets that ended up being where they slowed down.

 

For damage procs, I didn't plan on proc-monstering but more looking at the comparison of who can slot what. As a Blaster, end redux could be replaced by an extra proc on some powers if they can take it with all  the recovery we have, and then you start eyeballing 1 damage proc on Rad Blast + normal slotting vs Fire Blast which cannot take any "extra" procs.  Not only can certain sets take different procs, but the chances of them firing differ for many powers set to set.

 

38 minutes ago, Hjarki said:

 

But Knockback is different.

 

As you noticed, powers like Energy Torrent are wildly different in character from their native versions and the knockback-suppressed versions. Likewise, Force Feedback is a core justification for many sets because it doesn't just make one power better but has an impact across your entire build. Consider Fireball vs. Explosive Arrow. They're virtually the same power, except that Fireball does 35% more damage and Explosive Arrow does KB (that needs to be suppressed to make it useable). But on a perma-Hasten build, simply having Explosive Arrow in your arsenal with SA/FF means your entire build is running 25% faster (if you can find enough targets to regularly blow up).

 

Ask yourself this question: "Which does better AE damage - Fire Blast or Archery?". If you just look at the base numbers or SO builds, the answer is easy: Fire. I don't even need to go through a blizzard of math to convince you Fire is better AE than Archery because you already know it - and you probably knew it long before you ran your tests. But if I ask the same question in the context of FF/SA, the answer is probably reversed. The massive recharge bonus doesn't just make Explosive Arrow better, it makes the entire rotation better as well as lowering the recharge on abilities like Aim/Build Up.

 

Almost no one chooses Radiation Blast due to Achilles' Heel and the +2 procs/power. But the FF/SA possibilities are central to why players choose certain sets.

 

The question for me is not so much who is better, but rather how much is X better over Y. For example, if you could proc out your Rad Blast character a bit + normal slotting, and it is like within 15% of the top builds then I'd say "oh cool, this isn't the best but it's in the ballpark". If it's like, 50% worse then we have issues.

 

[Haijinx]

The FF thing only benefits some sets.

 

Like Energy.  But by the time you've slotted KB to KD AND FF you only have 4 slots in those AOEs for set bonuses.  

 

 

[SuperPlyx]

eh, we need a new incarnate  that gives across the board KB to KD

[PainX]

30 minutes ago, SuperPlyx said:

eh, we need a new incarnate  that gives across the board KB to KD

would prefer another solution lots of below lvl 50 content maybe just a toggle to make every KB effect 0,67 or what ever finaly putting the player in control simple on off switch would be nice though retain the IO's people may have weird builds which there is no need to mess with might want to mix KB and KD best to retain what is there and instead add on to it if possible imo

[Erratic1]

1 hour ago, Haijinx said:

The FF thing only benefits some sets.

 

Like Energy.  But by the time you've slotted KB to KD AND FF you only have 4 slots in those AOEs for set bonuses.  

 

 

True but only meaningful if needing the 5 or 6 slot bonuses from the available sets. Bonuses to Recharge and Toxic/Psi Resistance look to be the most common and desirable bonuses on those slots which might be hard to get elsewhere (not to say there are not other desirable things in those slots).

[GetRidOfWires]

Is there any benefit in looking at enemy resists in this topic? I’m actually surprised that Archery is so high given that a lot of its damage is Lethal, which is more resisted by later game enemies. You would predict that AR would just get worse than it already is at higher levels.

 

And I agree that AoE is a big factor in success, and is arguably a strong reason to play a given set. Chaining ranged AoE also helps: Fire Breath followed by Fireball is pretty amazing. Converting Energy KB to KD makes it a much better set, even if you don’t add the +recharge IOS, because it makes consecutive AoE use viable: Energy Torrent followed by Explosive Blast is very effective if you can hit the same group with both attacks. It’s part of why Electric, Sonic and Psy are lower tier: lack of effective chained ranged AoE attacks. It’s just my opinion, but when Elec finally gets access to Static Discharge, it becomes more effective as a set because it has two ranged AoE attacks it can chain.

 

I’d be interested in a ranking based on time to deliver full damage. Both Rad and Dark have some long animations and some attacks use DoT, both mechanics that reduce effectiveness in terms of quick defeats. Archery’s nuke is DoT as well.

 

This is a great discussion, thanks Galaxy Brain for doing the work!

[Haijinx]

On 2/2/2021 at 9:18 AM, PainX said:

would prefer another solution lots of below lvl 50 content maybe just a toggle to make every KB effect 0,67 or what ever finaly putting the player in control simple on off switch would be nice though retain the IO's people may have weird builds which there is no need to mess with might want to mix KB and KD best to retain what is there and instead add on to it if possible imo

Can think of a few ideas 

 

Global unique IO 

Null The Gull choice 

A Targeted AOE purple set with purple set like bonuses that includes a KB to KD 

[Haijinx]

While its cool Energy does so well due to its "Standard Set Configuration" Layout, it can't really get the same level of AOE Set Bonuses that some other sets do due to the KB to KD thing.  

 

The standard purple set is okay,  but the Winter Purple set adds a lot of defense at the 6th slot. 

 

That and of course you want the Status protect ATO in a AOE probably

 

Edited February 17, 2021 by Haijinx

[PainX]

On 2/18/2021 at 12:46 AM, Haijinx said:

Can think of a few ideas 

 

Global unique IO 

Null The Gull choice 

A Targeted AOE purple set with purple set like bonuses that includes a KB to KD 

all good options really well dont like the idea with the IO unless it is universal so you could just say dump it in rest or what ever to me every IO solution is undesirable since it just becomes the -1 slot AT or gets shoe horned into a specific build to counter it

 

also the status protection IO you mean the blaster set? that thing is quite garbage frankly mag is far to low to make any difference no you want that set for bonuses as for energy i tried to build it i really did i decided it was no good on blaster energy is for doms i want much more def on blasters dom is good with just S&L holds have alot of mitigation

Edited February 19, 2021 by PainX

[Haijinx]

6 hours ago, PainX said:

all good options really well dont like the idea with the IO unless it is universal so you could just say dump it in rest or what ever to me every IO solution is undesirable since it just becomes the -1 slot AT or gets shoe horned into a specific build to counter it

 

also the status protection IO you mean the blaster set? that thing is quite garbage frankly mag is far to low to make any difference no you want that set for bonuses as for energy i tried to build it i really did i decided it was no good on blaster energy is for doms i want much more def on blasters dom is good with just S&L holds have alot of mitigation

I put it in fireball and was pretty happy with it.   But it does need paired with high def.

[PainX]

2 hours ago, Haijinx said:

I put it in fireball and was pretty happy with it.   But it does need paired with high def.

well im ranged and S&L soft capped and finding it very underwhelming it's okay when it is 3 stacked useless when it is not