"Open zones to any alignment." But... ?

[Greycat]

I've seen this mentioned in a couple of threads and figured I'd put some thoughts here for discussion so as not to derail them.

 

So. Picture this. You're running between missions in Talos. Suddenly, on the street you see Murderbot 9k, wanted for at least that many murders, still steaming from all the weapons they set off in an office. They're hanging out on the street chatting with Canniballer, who's idly chewing on what was someone's arm and wearing a T-shirt saying "Donner throws the best parties." You've stopped council and COT plots, brought in Frostfire, Protean, Countess Crey... but you can't touch them.

 

Why? Because those are villain players, not NPCs.

 

Or, you're cutting through Nerva because there's a macguffin that would really advance your power when you see Shiny Justice and Lighthearted off to... do whatever heroes do. Probably save a kitten from a tree. They'll likely interfere with your plans somehow, and even if not, beating them down would really make your rep. Only... you can't. Those are hero players, not NPCs. You sigh and move on.

 

(Should any of these be someone's character... made up the names on the spot, so 'scuse me.)

 

A few times in the last day I've seen "Open all the zones to any alignment" mentioned in different threads by different people. Given open world PVP is unlikely to ever happen (or be embraced by the community if it were turned on,) how would you deal with seeing "enemy" players in opposite-aligned zones?

 

(Edit: As an aside, no, I'm not making the suggestion - due in large part to what I'm mentioning here, among other things.)

Edited September 12, 2020 by Greycat

[Lines]

I mean I already ignore like 99% of the enemies on the street as it is.

 

I'd just forgive it, for the benefit of a more condensed and lively game world. It's a CoH2 sorta idea, though.

[Sunrunner]

They aren't acknowledged as existing from an in-character perspective; same as all the other ambient hostiles that I don't care to spend that play-session dealing with.

[FoulVileTerror]

Damnit @Greycat!   You beat me to it.

Oh well.  Here's my proposal:

https://forums.homecomingservers.com/topic/22335-consideration-of-report-incursion-feature-in-theoretical-unrestricted-access-by-alignment-game/

[McJigg]

Don't worry, Canniballer spent 20 missions changing alignment (Or spoke to an omnipotent seagull) and everything is forgiven. Not to mention when he was a villain you saved Cimerora together, and you saw him dancing with Paladin Phil McLightgood in Pocket D.

 

Alignment is pretty meaningless, outside of the the three PVP zones and one holiday event it serves no purpose other than to limit what zones/content one could enjoy.

 

Plus, I see heroes that are essentially Canniballer on blue side all the time anyway.

[Coyotedancer]

Given that I'd probably be jetting through Talos on a character who's a fifteen-thousand year-old body-snatching magical ghost that 99% of the other Heroes *and* Villains would want to beat the stuffings out of on General Principles the instant they saw the glowing eyes and spikey Oranbegan armor were the City any kind of even vaguely realistic setting.... I can't really say I'd be bothered.  

 

If I can team with Ebul the Badinator in the War Zone, and bust Romans with Noble MacSobright and not get too tied in moral knots, it's not so much of a stretch to accept crossing paths with them in Peregrine or Saint Martial.

 

 

Edited September 12, 2020 by Coyotedancer

[Greycat]

1 hour ago, Krimson said:

In actual comic books and related media, you do in fact see costumed villains in the open world doing things that costumed villains do. In CoX, they mostly appear in instances as a boss or something, while in the open world we just get gangs who wear coordinated outfits. 

Yes, but unless they've got their own country and are doing their thing there, they're rarely *allowed* to just be out in the open doing their thing, which is kind of the point - someone calls it in, or they're reported on the news, and SuperPerson goes out to stop them, rescue their victims/hostages/stray cats, etc.

 

In game? That would generally be PVP. Which, again... open world PVP is not generally desired.

 

Plus, of course, we're not in a comic book or movie. We don't have someone writing a plot where bad guy must get away with something for so long while good guy has to learn about it, get the clues and stop them. We're in a game with a comic book theme. If this were a single player game, the whole thing would be moot (well, for more reason than just being single player.)

 

2 hours ago, McJigg said:

Alignment is pretty meaningless

... perhaps to you, but there are people who care about their characters and actions to the point that they won't go grey or switch sides for anything *because* the alignment does, indeed, mean something to them. There's a whole range, from "mechanics and numbers wrapped in graphics" who just click through the annoying mission text to get the XPs and merits so they can tweak every tenth of a point of DPS or get ONE last set bonus,  to those who put a lot of thought into the *character* and their motivations, who don't care about the numbers and pick missions - even where they'd go - specifically on that, and of course every point in between.

 

(Edit: For me, I'm in between. I don't really care a *great* deal about numbers, and on most characters it doesn't "break" them for me to, say, go redside to join a patron arc if the powers would fit them - I've got a scrapper who has a beach theme and backstory that Mako fit perfectly for - but there are times there are story or alignment based things that make me just go "eh... no.")

Edited September 12, 2020 by Greycat

[FoulVileTerror]

I know you and I don't see eye-to-eye on quite a few things, @Greycat, but . . . it absolutely can not be emphasized enough that:  Yes.  Alignment DOES matter, because it matters to some players.

People may be able to argue about the degree to which it matters comparably, but it's a significant part of the narrative in this game.  And while I won't try to take the game away from anyone who just wants to watch numbers, I do hope those same players will extend to us the opportunity to add greater depth to the narrative aspect of this setting, and how we interact with it.

[Greycat]

1 minute ago, Krimson said:

We're in a game with a comic book theme, but I have yet to see any comics where the gangs get to run amok in the streets in their coordinated outfits while costumed villains are stuck indoors, watching the action through a window. Look at the Halloween events, you could have Eochai or Jack in Irons just appear in the Peregrine parking lot. Anyone in zone can fight them. Anyone in zone can avoid fighting them ridiclously easy. How would it be any different if say Black Scorpion appeared in front of the Peregrine Bank and started rampaging? You would still be able to just jump in and join the fight or.... You could bravely run away. 

Most comic books don't require their characters to gain XP. 🙂 Thus the piles of random gangs (with enough members on the street they could just go found their own city at any time.)

 

And I don't mind *this* idea because... you'd be fighting NPCs. (there's have to be good reason for Black Scorpion to be there instead of a lesser villain, but you get the point.) Mentioned that in the other thread when you brought this sort of idea up, which I wouldn't mind seeing implemented.  I'm talking specifically about player characters.

[McJigg]

I'm an RPer myself, but I just don't think the game as it is offers enough mechanically for the divide we have. It's fine to play a Hero who is only a Hero and never even looks at the vigilante option of a tip mission.

 

That doesn't stop Canniballer from speaking to a seagull and being in Kings Row anyway. The exact thing you're afraid of already happens. You already can't tell if someone else is a Hero, Vigilante or Rogue when out in the world. Opening up the zones will only change one thing. Canniballer won't talk to a seagull before you see him. That's it.

 

Now if Homecoming had never added that option to Null the Gull, this would be a different argument. But in many ways, that's a Pandora's Box that can't be shut.

 

At the end of the day, the alignment exclusion of zones just doesn't add anything. If xX-Murder-Hobo-GodXx can just swing by Pocked D, talk to Null and hang out in Atlas anyway, what is it accomplishing?

[FoulVileTerror]

 . . . honestly . . . "xX-Hunter-Hobo-GodXx" was probably Blueside to begin with . . . 

 

But, yeah.  

The thing is . . . a Rogue isn't QUITE a Villain mechanically speaking, and definitely isn't narratively speaking.

So, while many of us make concessions right now as players to hand-wave away that player-characters who are self-described as truly villainous can play as any of the four Alignments without any substantial impact to the gameplay, and we're all just playing make-believe . . . there IS something to be said about the appeal for some to be playing within a narratively cohesive setting.

I like me some narrative cohesion, boy howdy!  I wouldn't want that to take away other players' option to just hit up Null, of course.

 

And so, within the context of a true-red dyed-in-the-wool Villain player-character, narratively and gameplay-mechanic-approved, walking around in Kings Row . . . well, that's what this thread and my own are attempting to address.

The possibility of having Heroes and Villains (not Vigilantes and Rogues) crossing over.  And yes, we get it that for a lot of the players out there, there's no functional difference to them.  But there is to other players, and it's enough to be one of the core aspects of the entire game experience for these players.

 

There are, of course, other methods to try and achieve this same objective.  Such as making a narrative justification in the form of forged FBSA heroing license / Arachnos registration; but the game itself is still ludonarratively dissonant in that respect.  Hell, the game is ludonarratively dissonant in a LOT of respects.  As I said in the other thread, I personally wouldn't be too bothered if we -did- just open the floodgates and let everyone go wherever they please.  Hell, getting rid of the Level Gates is one of my number one desires for this game!

But I'm definitely going to do my best to respect that it's not quite good enough for other players.   I would like to see if we can't find a way to make those players content, if not outright happy, while also not stepping on the toes of others.

[McJigg]

A rogue isn't quite a villain but you already don't know if someone is a rogue. If you join a Rikti War Zone, Cimerora, First/Night Ward team, are you personally asking the alignment of each person to make sure you're not with any villains? That name is the same color, whether Hero or Villain.

 

What about the people blueside who DO rp as villains? Does the fact that Canniballer and xXMurder-Hobo-GodXx are mechanically designated as Heroes overtake their very violent and crime ridden bios?

 

The issue with trying to place any additional hurdles to enforce alignment is that Null the Gull still exists. Anything incorporated has to be weighed against how easy it would be to opt out with Null the Gull. And if the answer is that the majority of the player base will opt out through Null, is it worth the developmental resources.

 

There's also the question of WHY a villain character would be in Paragon. Like a rogue, it's not like they have contacts there. There's just more blue side teams. I'm not saying there's NO red side teams, there's just more blue. I've already come across a few red folk who make their way through Pocket D to see Null and come blue just because there was nothing going on Red side at that time.

 

Now, what Alignment IS good for, is personal rp, badge variation and titles. You'll never hear me say alignment should be ripped out all together. I just this alignment exclusion in zones and/or teams isn't solving anything. You want to save the day and do Citidel's Taskforce? There could already be a villain on your team who wanted a badge,

[FoulVileTerror]

Yeah, but this idea usually comes up explicitly because people WANT to do villainous content in Blueside zones.  Probably some people want to do heroic content in Redside zones too, but . . . welllllll . . . those people are less vocal, if they even exist.

 

The point is that if/when we DO get the opportunity to be "bad guys" in the "good place," it pays to have hashed out the mechanical and narrative functionality of it all.  Just straight up removing the Alignment barriers is a valid possibility, but there are players who would feel that would be too much of a betrayal/departure from the established norm.  So, if we're looking to avoid running roughshod over those players (again) when/if there -is- some reason to allow Villains Blueside, it's a good idea to talk it through.

[McJigg]

So let's say they add a villain contact/story arc in Steel Canyon. A bunch of red players come and do that story. They do some minor street sweeping and enter doors to interior missions out of sight. You, blue side, start a mission team. You pass by the group at one point. Can you even tell it's the red team? Later they finish and one of their members joins your team. Do you even know it's a villain? Or care?

 

I get the 'gut feeling' that a villain standing in a blue side feels wrong. The game is from 2004, villains released as a separate game at first. The game is currently run by volunteers with no full time dev team. The history of the game and the cards we have now are what they are.

 

If the game was remade today, or if it was still in active development with a team, I'd ask for more. We could have had an expansion that expanded on Going Rogue and brought red content to Paragon and blue content to the Rogue Isles.

 

This is what we have though.

[FoulVileTerror]

The question of "are player-Villains in Blueside zones going to be apparent to Heroes in any way" is an excellent one to pose!  It would fundamentally shape what sorts of problems we would face, and which solutions would address it.  Conversely, it might end up being the other way around.  We might establish the expectations and parameters, and then decide "ok, Villains in Bluezones should have a purple border if they're selected, but otherwise Hero players won't know"  OR  "any time a Villain player enters the zone, all Heroes receive a warning!"   Figuring that sort of thing out is part of the design and development process.

Likewise for whether or not Villains would be able to join teams.  In the proposal I wrote up for the massive Redside Weekly Discussion a few months back, I suggested:  No.  But that doesn't mean that's ultimately the decision that would be made in the end.

 

In a lot of ways, now more than ever, this game has the potential for -more.-  If the Homecoming Team took on the position of directors, rather than mere codemonkeys (apologies for the term, but just trying to use some shorthand here), and delegate the work to the talented and dedicated fans of this game, then I think these sorts of things could be tackled in record time!  Not at first, of course.  We'd need to start small, get the kinks worked out, get some proof-of-concept going . . . but eventually?  Having seen what opensource projects are capable of, and what player-made mods are like for other games?  The potential is real!  We just need the focus to tap in to it.  The talent IS there, even if it's largely raw still.

[cranebump]

I like the alignment system the way it is, personally. Unless someone can illuminate for me what is gained by this idea (because I would not truly know).

Edited September 13, 2020 by cranebump

[EmmySky]

I have seen so many threads about trying to draw/trick/bribe/beg people to play redside.  I also think it makes zero sense not to have heroes fighting crime in the rogue isles an villains perpetrating crime in paragon city.

 

I am most certainly not advocating any kind of full world PvP or self flagging or anything of the sort.

 

I think the point about how do you even know if someone is a villain or hero if you see them standing around on the street is a very good one.  With people naming their characters any and every thing under the sun, honestly that is very little indication.

 

Going from mission to mission, I certainly don't stop to fight every mugger I see.  It would be no different if that person were a player rather than an NPC (again talking about intent and the feeling of I must stop the foul villain and not talking about PvP).

 

I would like villains to have their contacts and arcs and heroes to have their contacts and arcs and they happen to be able to be going on in the same zone.  This would put more people redside, probably, or give people the opportunity to still be villainous but in a more populated area.  I am not an RPer but that seems more immersive to me.

 

As for heroes and villains teaming up, it works in the abyss, in Kallisti wharf, why cant it work everywhere?  I can see if you want to limit that, I mean would a cold blooded villain want to join a Posi to save Atlas park or would they say let it burn?  Whoever is in charge of such things, I am happy to let someone else decide the mechanics of that.  

 

I think the main things this would solve is the population disparity of the zones (you being relegated to empty zones if you enjoy villainy) and the common sense issue of heroes heroing in RI and villains villaining in PC.

[The Pyn]

why not go gold? you can murder both protesters and cops every time the mission spawns in nova praetoria.

[McJigg]

If the game was made today, I think Goldside would have been the norm. The player knows their character and the alignment. The player can take missions and join teams accordingly.