Most powerful MM for roleplay purposes

[Force Redux]

4 hours ago, kelika2 said:

On a literal game mechanical level, masterminds are weaker than the other archetypes.  As much as I love the AT from live and kinda sorta now, I know their limitations.  There is nothing to challenge when it is a cold hard fact and folks anecdotal rebuttals will not change my mind.  And if I can open up their accounts like a book, I bet most will have more brutes and blasters over masterminds.  While they still claim to like masterminds, of course.

 

This game is easy enough to have fun, but if I wanna min/max, I wont go mastermind.

The absolute irony of these two statements did not escape me. 

Edited October 11, 2020 by Force Redux

[Hopestar]

You can edit your post and include it all in one neat post FYI.

Also MMs are nice, but there's very few Primaries to play with so having more brutes and blasters would only make sense because they have way more combinations.

[kelika2]

I am not reading all of that.  You read this however.

[TheSpiritFox]

9 hours ago, kelika2 said:

On a literal game mechanical level, masterminds are weaker than the other archetypes.  As much as I love the AT from live and kinda sorta now, I know their limitations.  There is nothing to challenge when it is a cold hard fact and folks anecdotal rebuttals will not change my mind.  And if I can open up their accounts like a book, I bet most will have more brutes and blasters over masterminds.  While they still claim to like masterminds, of course.

 

This game is easy enough to have fun, but if I wanna min/max, I wont go mastermind.

I can literally kill a pylon faster than most other archetypes and powerset combinations with a number of mastermind builds without using lore pets, they can achieve over a thousand single target DPS with a number of builds, and at the same time can solo +4x8 more effectively and throw out more aoe dps than a significant number of ATs and powersets. My thugs/traps is tankier than anything that is not a brute, tank, or Khledian built to use dwarf well. Yesterday on my thugs/traps we did a banners event in steel. I killed my banner alone faster than a brute, scrapper, dom, and two controllers took down their banner together all attacking it. We each had one lore pet out at the banner. 

 

Masterminds have the widest variance in top performance of powersets. A mercs/trick arrow is a nightmare to play even if you spend a billion influence on it or as close to it as you can manage. By comparison, a thugs/traps can solo most TFs in the game at +0 if it's slotted out with an effective attuned IO build, perhaps with the help of prestige or temp attacks in lower levels to make up for missing pets. 

 

But my first post in reply to you was trying to communicate that based on how you advised slotting your thugs, you do not understand the IO system in this game at all and what a difference those IO sets make in the power of a mastermind. They are absolutely  not "weaker" than other archetypes and if you think so you do genuinely do not know how to build or play MMs. I can solo content most other ATs can't on a number of my MMs. They can be built to be a combination of insanely tanky, solid team support, and solid damage. MMs are some of the most effective jack of all trades because we can also be master of a few. But you have no clue how to IO out an MM to actually squeeze the top end performance out of them. 

[Force Redux]

Here we go, from @kiramon:

 

Gaussian will proc on whatever has the proc equipped. The cool thing is that it has a chance to proc for You based on # of targets affected by your tactics, but it will only proc you for the Build Up BuFF. if you have a pet with a to-hit buff, it has a chance to proc when they use it. If the pet has their own Version of tacticS, then they have a chance proc it only for themselvesbut the chance is increased Based on # of targets (source: This thread here).

 

There were a few other references, but this one was quite succinct with how it operates with Enforcer Tactics. I think they are the only pet in the game that really benefits from it even when solo due to the MM basically carrying their own pocket team with them. And each Enforcer has their own opportunity to proc it.

 

The proc only benefits the Enforcer, but has a high chance of going off.

 

Honestly, if I didn't have a Thugs/Time already I'd probably roll up a Thugs/Traps, seems like a solid combo. Loses some healing and recharge, but all the extra damage...! 😳

Edited October 11, 2020 by Force Redux

[Force Redux]

5 hours ago, Hopestar said:

You can edit your post and include it all in one neat post FYI.

Also MMs are nice, but there's very few Primaries to play with so having more brutes and blasters would only make sense because they have way more combinations.

Yeah I apologise, I'm a wreck with organizing things sometimes particularly without my coffee. 

 

Agreed. And as popular as MMs are, could you imagine if we had several more primaries?

 

[TheSpiritFox]

41 minutes ago, Force Redux said:

Here we go, from @kiramon:

 

Gaussian will proc on whatever has the proc equipped. The cool thing is that it has a chance to proc for You based on # of targets affected by your tactics, but it will only proc you for the Build Up BuFF. if you have a pet with a to-hit buff, it has a chance to proc when they use it. If the pet has their own Version of tacticS, then they have a chance proc it only for themselvesbut the chance is increased Based on # of targets (source: This thread here).

 

There were a few other references, but this one was quite succinct with how it operates with Enforcer Tactics. I think they are the only pet in the game that really benefits from it even when solo due to the MM basically carrying their own pocket team with them. And each Enforcer has their own opportunity to proc it.

 

The proc only benefits the Enforcer, but has a high chance of going off.

 

Honestly, if I didn't have a Thugs/Time already I'd probably roll up a Thugs/Traps, seems like a solid combo. Loses some healing and recharge, but all the extra damage...! 😳

Hmmmmm ok. I get it. Its only gonna boost enforcer damage but with 6 pets being effected by each of their tactics including themselves the proc chances are high and they can build up quite alot, boosting the base damage they do frequently and if there are other MMs on the team or pets which can be affected by enforcers the chances only go higher up to 90% chance to pop every time it ticks which is the cap. 

 

Yeah I can see that sounds like I might replace the proc that's lethal damage cause that's highly resisted anyway with gaussians. 

 

And I highly, highly recommend thugs/traps. Like, Bots/traps used to be my main, but without an easy way to mule pet auras and also needing at least a sudden acceleration in the assault bot to really get max DPS out of them in the first place bots/traps actually ends up being surprisingly fragile compared to like a bots/time. Protector bots having to individually rebubble is a real weakness of the bots and I think protector bots should get to bubble themselves. 

 

But thugs/traps isn't like that. Lose an enforcer or minion, resummon, and they are immediately at softcap as soon as they exist. Enforcers provide maneuvers as a baseline so if one dies you call him right back and his defense comes right back. Once your minions are softcapped they stay that way and cascading is harder than a bots/traps by far. At the same time  you can fit all the auras so you've got 35% resists to everything. Triage beacon is actually helpful in this because what will really get you is the chip damage over time. The pet regen aura is not enough they can and will slowly die and healing them all individually is a pain, but high ass defenses, a bit of resist, and a triage beacon can keep your team alive and stacked triage beacons are actually a shitload of regen like I've seen my brute hit 35hp/sec regen. Triage helps mitigate attracting attention to yourself. Like if your pets are fighting and you use seekers to attract the attention of a new group, they're all gonna come after you. If the pets are in bodyguard then your damage gets split and triage beacon takes it away until the pets start aggroing on the new enemies and chewing them down too. 

 

It's kinda almost a passive tankermind style where you take hits not because you're keeping aggro but because you're fighting so much shit that some of its gonna be aiming at you and triage beacon and bodyguard mode let you defray that damage until your pets eventually murder everything capable of damaging you. 

 

I am toying with removing the purple set from acid mortar and just proccing it out but I really, really like having it on a sub 30 second recharge. The damage multiplier of being able to have two of them out potentially proccing achilles on everything... I'll put it this way the longer I am in a group the faster things seem to die until suddenly the fires burn out and I am just surrounded by corpses to make any warshade jealous. I focused on recharge and defenses over damage but in the process I also went as heavy debuff as I thought I could manage with a good bit of control. Bonfire and stacked caltrops often means just nothing can stand up, even AVs. Its truly the most mastermindy build I have played. You have so many tools to deal with things and thugs burnout double gangwar synergizes perfectly with traps long recharge letting you stack EVEN MOAR traps in a pinch.

 

This is my main MM now for a reason. I took super jump and super speed and like I can keep up with Speed Miss Liberties and stuff. My traps come up so fast that like I'm walking up to AVs in speed runs always having a poison trap to drop and super speed lets me move so fast the pets have to teleport to catch up so as long as I am not taking the alpha my pets arrive in seconds and we burn the AV down and move on. 

 

My fastest pylon run was 55 seconds without lore pets. Slowest was like 1:25, but I had some bad luck with knockback that round. Its such a great combo I highly recommend it, once you fully IO it out its a goddamn monster and it has alot of sidegrade room to like choose some damage powers or focus hard on defenses and buffs and move slots around accordingly. Your patron power pick is pretty open, though I really think bonfire is of far more benefit than anything else being a new layered mitigation. 

 

Also, bind web grenade to shift+left click. Doo eeeettttt. I never realized how much I should be web grenading things until I did that and now its like ha who needs aggro control I can just immobilize everything thats not a damn council wolf. 

Edited October 11, 2020 by TheSpiritFox

[Force Redux]

Yeah, the Protector Bot rebubbling also takes away from their already mediocre DPS. I do get that their bubbles do affect the Mastermind, so that's a perk, but I'd like to see QoL in them just having mini-dispersion bubbles that do not require casting all the time. 

 

I'll try out the web grenade bind, I think I can web spam with the best of them if given the chance! 😛

[Riverdusk]

12 hours ago, kelika2 said:

On a literal game mechanical level, masterminds are weaker than the other archetypes.  As much as I love the AT from live and kinda sorta now, I know their limitations.  There is nothing to challenge when it is a cold hard fact and folks anecdotal rebuttals will not change my mind.  And if I can open up their accounts like a book, I bet most will have more brutes and blasters over masterminds.  While they still claim to like masterminds, of course.

 

This game is easy enough to have fun, but if I wanna min/max, I wont go mastermind.

MM's may not be the #1 min/max choice (but what is except maybe specific kinds of brutes? Or a TW/Bio scrapper maybe?), but I still feel they are easy street leveling up compared to a lot of other AT's.  My MM's level up easier and faster than my corrupters, defenders, controllers, and dominators at the least.  So far from "weakest" in my experience.   Seem pretty middle of the road at worst.   

 

And actually most of the charts of the population brackets have them...also around the middle, both overall (#6 out of 15) and at level 50 (#7 out of 15) for "played time".  I'm not sure where you are getting the "lowest population brackets" from.

 

By the way, you'd be dead wrong about my brute and blaster vs mastermind ratio.  I have more controllers than anything, MM's second, stalkers third.  Stalkers especially a much less popular class than MM, constantly at the bottom of the popularity lists even.  Stalkers must be by far the weakest AT out there except VEATS and HEATS by your criteria.

[Yomo Kimyata]

I’m a little confused on the Gaussian proc.  It *sounds* like it’s better used in your own Tactics than in your enforcer?  I’m not sure if I’m reading that right.

 

Also, I just slotted the Universal Damage proc in Gang War, and the results are predictably hysterical after very brief usage.

[kelika2]

14 hours ago, TheSpiritFox said:

I can literally kill a pylon f-

This is not world of warcraft with all the little rogues beating up a test dummy.  Most of this game will not stand still waiting for you to kill it.  Most of this game has travel time between enemies and at high levels pets will have a hard time catching up.

 

Pylons are for bragging rights, not the meter stick on how everyone is judged.

[TheSpiritFox]

20 minutes ago, kelika2 said:

This is not world of warcraft with all the little rogues beating up a test dummy.  Most of this game will not stand still waiting for you to kill it.  Most of this game has travel time between enemies and at high levels pets will have a hard time catching up.

 

Pylons are for bragging rights, not the meter stick on how everyone is judged.

Lmao you're ignoring the amount of DPS I have to throw around to kill a pylon in 55 seconds. It means I can kill any AV I can tank in the game (which is most AVs)

[Force Redux]

5 hours ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

I’m a little confused on the Gaussian proc.  It *sounds* like it’s better used in your own Tactics than in your enforcer?  I’m not sure if I’m reading that right.

 

Also, I just slotted the Universal Damage proc in Gang War, and the results are predictably hysterical after very brief usage.

We might need to page the proc gods to get help with that.

 

Yes, OF KD of fun in GW. 😅

[Force Redux]

2 minutes ago, Force Redux said:

We might need to page the proc gods to get help with that.

 

Yes, OF KD of fun in GW. 😅

@Sir MyshkinMyshkin would you be able to help regarding Gaussian in Enforcers in terms of viability? Thank you.

[Hopestar]

It's 200% better in your enforcer; why? Because:

1. Your Enforcer likely does more damage than any of your personal attacks, since most "strong" attacks by MM use procs to do the majority of the damage which would be unaffected by buildup.
2. You have 2 Enforcers with Tactics, that's twice the chance of it proccing than on your single Tactics.

[Yomo Kimyata]

21 minutes ago, Hopestar said:

It's 200% better in your enforcer; why? Because:

1. Your Enforcer likely does more damage than any of your personal attacks, since most "strong" attacks by MM use procs to do the majority of the damage which would be unaffected by buildup.
2. You have 2 Enforcers with Tactics, that's twice the chance of it proccing than on your single Tactics.

I had overlooked that I will have two enforcers (only in low 20s at the moment) so that may  be the deciding element.  

 

But I am wondering:  a proc in my mastermind's tactics has a chance to trigger for him, each of his pets, and each of his teammates.  I was wondering if enforcer tactics applies to other players if I team, or if it only applies to my mastermind and his team.  

 

 

[kelika2]

4 hours ago, TheSpiritFox said:

Lmao you're ignoring the amount of DPS I have to throw around to kill a pylon in 55 seconds. It means I can kill any AV I can tank in the game (which is most AVs)

And the amount of time fighting AVs (and pylons) is probably less than 1% of the game.  Its not City of Pylons.

Its City of Running around wiping out hoards of minions and leaping from group to group.  What you are doing is like a Fire Brute coming up to you saying how fast he can kill off a firefarm and you should take whatever he says as fact without question.

[Force Redux]

4 hours ago, Hopestar said:

It's 200% better in your enforcer; why? Because:

1. Your Enforcer likely does more damage than any of your personal attacks, since most "strong" attacks by MM use procs to do the majority of the damage which would be unaffected by buildup.
2. You have 2 Enforcers with Tactics, that's twice the chance of it proccing than on your single Tactics.

Thank you Hopestar

[Sir Myshkin]

Some points:

• Tactics on MMs does have a pretty solid fire-off rate with Gaussian, but unless there is intentional focus on attacking the added boost has very little value and is unlikely to support DPS effectively given the random nature of the proc v. combat. Given this, I’d personally say slotting the Gaussian proc on the MM itself is a waste.
• Any pet that can take the proc and can be slotted towards an ability with an effective trigger chance, then this is acceptable. Enforcers get the same benefit triggers out of Tactics multiplying against all the other summoned pets and are going to be actively cycling in other attacks actively giving them the most benefit for a Thugs MM. To boot there are two of them which is even better.
• For those talking about “Pylon Times” with their MMs, take those assaults with a grain of salt. Pylons are classed objects and anything attacking them is considered equivalent level meaning pet levels shifts are negated, thus damage scaling isn’t active meaning it’s not exactly a fair scale to compare against an AV for MMS.

 

Towards the original topic, Thugs do make the most obvious practical choice, but the secondary could easily be waived to any number of things. As a consideration of the character being someone who “worked their way up” is there a connected “original” version of the character and do any of those power sets have carry over as a MM secondary, even stretched?

 

Back on retail I had a series of characters that were the same person as they evolved through their encounters. Started out as a weapon smith (BR/Traps Corr), following the Incarnate storylines they got consumed by Mot and became imbued with the lingering darkness that overwhelmed them (became a Dark/Sonic Cont), eventually regained control of their mind and learned to harness the darkness and retooled their weapons to Melee combat (Night Widow/Fort). Eventually the character found a way to purify the darkness and turn the power into world-altering energy (Beast/Nature MM), there’s still machinery involved in each detailed explanation of each form, but it was transitionally the same character, keeping color toning and appearance at each stage. Just about anything can be written to make sense

[Yomo Kimyata]

I think I see my misconception about slotting Gaussian proc in Tactics.  When I read that it has a higher chance to prove based on team size, I thought the build up proc would trigger for other people on the team, be that minions or other characters.

 

so my current understanding is that the proc in a MM’s tactics will trigger more often based on team size, but will only provide build up for the MM alone, not any of his pets.  Likewise, the proc in enforcers when triggered will only provide build up for that particular enforcer.  Is this correct?

 

i also solved an alpha problem I have been having with my thugs/time.  I only use the three default command buttons (so sue me, that got me through max difficulty for my beasts/traps!). For beasts, I target my sucker, hit attack button, beasts go grr and wipe out target quickly then spread attacks to nearby enemies.  For zombies, I target my sucker, zombies go nnngh and wipe out target quickly.  For thugs, I target my sucker, thugs go yes boss, then attack anything else nearby except my sucker.  And then everything attacked notices my debuff aura, ignores my thugs, and comes after me.

 

today I realized the problem.  My ranged thugs have too sensitive/too large of a perception radius.  So I edited the default attack macro and changed the stance from offensive to defensive.  Mischief managed.  Now they (mostly) go after my target until it’s defeated.

[Sir Myshkin]

1 hour ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

Is this correct?

Yes.

 

Side note about commands, I too tend to keep my bar void of a lot of complicated macros and such, but the two things I personally found the most useful was having just “Defensive” mode and then a macro specifically telling my pets to attack my specific target, and only that target while staying in Defensive mode. A third option would be one that puts the T3 into Aggressive and lets them “loose”. Having the specific-targeting method might be a tad tedious, the ultimate goal is to get a spawn initiated, and then let natural aggro fuel the AI’s functionality in Defensive mode.