Enhancement Sets Question

[larrywhart2020]

Do the enhancement sets get diminishing returns, example 3 or more IO's, or do sets get everything that each of the 3 to 6 enhancements in the set state it delivers?

 

[cohRock]

Sets are limited by the same diminishing returns as regular enhancements (aka Enhancement Diversification, or ED).  If you look at the elements of a set and add up its various characteristics, you can see that this was taken into account in the design.  For example, a set might contain 4 enhancements with damage:

1. damage only
2. damage/accuracy
3. damage/accuracy/endurance
4. damage/recharge/endurance

If you add up the damage components of each, you will see that they don't push the ED limits.

 

That all said, set bonuses are fully additive.  For example, if a set bonus offers 3% damage, that is a true 3% more base damage to all your attacks, bypassing ED limitations.  If an element of the set is a damage proc (5% extra fire damage, for example), that also bypasses ED and adds 5% to the base damage of the power, in this case expressed as fire.

Edited October 8, 2020 by cohRock
clarification

[Sakai]

1 minute ago, cohRock said:

 

 

That all said, set bonuses are fully additive.  For example, if a set bonus offers 3% damage, that is a true 3% more base damage to all your attacks, bypassing ED limitations.

Huh. Did not know that. TYVM. 

[cohRock]

10 minutes ago, Sakai said:

Huh. Did not know that. TYVM. 

You are welcome.  Keep in mind I am referring to base (unslotted) damage.  So an attack may do 60 points of damage with no enhancements and 115 when slotted.  A 3% bonus would be 1.8 (60 * 3%) more damage, not 3.45 (115 * 3%).

Edited October 8, 2020 by cohRock

[larrywhart2020]

20 hours ago, cohRock said:

Sets are limited by the same diminishing returns as regular enhancements (aka Enhancement Diversification, or ED).  If you look at the elements of a set and add up its various characteristics, you can see that this was taken into account in the design.  For example, a set might contain 4 enhancements with damage:

1. damage only
2. damage/accuracy
3. damage/accuracy/endurance
4. damage/recharge/endurance

If you add up the damage components of each, you will see that they don't push the ED limits.

 

That all said, set bonuses are fully additive.  For example, if a set bonus offers 3% damage, that is a true 3% more base damage to all your attacks, bypassing ED limitations.  If an element of the set is a damage proc (5% extra fire damage, for example), that also bypasses ED and adds 5% to the base damage of the power, in this case expressed as fire.

So it might matter how you order the enhancement set, if you want maximize damage, you might want to arrange the damage containing enhancements from larger to smaller, if you are worried about endurance organize endurance from larger to smaller. 

[cohRock]

@PatriotMusic, I have never heard that slotting order would make a difference.  My assumption has always been that the various components are added together, with ED being applied to the sum.  I do not know if this assumption is correct, however.

[Omega-202]

1 hour ago, PatriotMusic said:

So it might matter how you order the enhancement set, if you want maximize damage, you might want to arrange the damage containing enhancements from larger to smaller, if you are worried about endurance organize endurance from larger to smaller. 

This is completely incorrect.  The order does not matter.  When you exemplar you get all of the slots.  Please don't spread misinformation.

[Troo]

hmmm,

I understood it as a power taken at lvl 28 with its one slot would be available at lvl 25.

If I had leveled high enough to slot that that power with an additional 5 slots, these additional slots would not count at lvl 25.

For this reason it may be beneficial to slot the proc or Acc/Dam or EndRed in that initial slot to ensure it is available if the power is available.

Exception: If the IO set bonuses from those slots were ATO, Purple or PVP they could still be active. These set bonuses are available whether the power is available or not regardless of level explared to. Uniques may also function, I can't remember.

 

Maybe we are all saying the same thing? It's also possible I am very mistaken. (confirmed 🤪)

Disclaimer: This advice is worth what you paid for it.

Edited October 9, 2020 by Troo
inaccurate

[Greycat]

32 minutes ago, cohRock said:

@PatriotMusic, I have never heard that slotting order would make a difference.  My assumption has always been that the various components are added together, with ED being applied to the sum.  I do not know if this assumption is correct, however.

Your assumption is, Patriot's is not.

[Greycat]

1 minute ago, Troo said:

hmmm,

I understood it as a power taken at lvl 28 with its one slot would be available at lvl 25.

If I had leveled high enough to slot that that power with an additional 5 slots, these additional slots would not count at lvl 25.

 

Slots do not get "exemped below." They are all or nothing. If you have the power, you have all the slots that you put in that power. (The IO/enhancement levels *do* matter, but - say - if you had six level 15 IOs in a power you took at 18, but put six slots in in the 40s, you'd still have all those IOs available when you ran, say, a posi 2.)

Edited October 9, 2020 by Greycat

[cohRock]

1 minute ago, Greycat said:

Slots do not get "exemped below." They are all or nothing. If you have the power, you have all the slots in that power.

This is best demonstrated during a respec.  The process allows you to slot any power in any order, which would make it impossible to somehow backtrack exemplarred stats to match "exactly" what they would have been if you were say, 19, again.  I will admit, though, for a long time on Live I believed the backtrack theory.  But as Greycat says, it is all or nothing.  If you have a power active, you have all of its slots.

 

That said, the enhancements might well be weaker that what you actually have slotted.  For example, if you are a level 44 character exemplarred to 19, the enhancements will be about as strong as DOs.  You will still have any set bonuses in available powers however, and, I'm pretty sure at their full strength.

[Omega-202]

15 minutes ago, cohRock said:

That said, the enhancements might well be weaker that what you actually have slotted.  For example, if you are a level 44 character exemplarred to 19, the enhancements will be about as strong as DOs.  You will still have any set bonuses in available powers however, and, I'm pretty sure at their full strength.

Generally, that's a decent way to think about how single aspect enhancements work, but it's actually way more complicated for multi-aspect enhancements. 

 

https://hcwiki.cityofheroes.dev/wiki/Exemplar_Effects_on_Enhancements

[Troo]

The things I learned from this are:

It is the enhancement level not the slot level that is possibly important.

Procs are not effected by the 3 level rule. (it only matters if the power is available) (I have always unnecessarily tried to get procs at the lowest level available)

[Omega-202]

1 minute ago, Troo said:

Procs are not effected by the 3 level rule. (it only matters if the power is available) (I have always unnecessarily tried to get procs at the lowest level available)

The proc levels don't matter for them having their individual effects, but they do matter for set bonuses.  A lvl 50 proc with 2 other atttuned pieces of it's set will only give the 3-slot bonus at 47 and above.  

 

The best scenario is to always attune your procs if feasible, just so you can definitely get any set bonuses.  

[Troo]

Yep, but we'd need to attune the other IOs in the set as well.

 

As someone who lived in Sirens Call, making sure that enhancements were maximized for the desired level was important. (this mind set carried over to IOs)

 

I seem to remember lower level Luck of the Gambler: Defense/+7.5% Recharge costing more that higher level ones. Maybe this was due to availability and falsely reinforced my misunderstanding.

[Omega-202]

19 minutes ago, Troo said:

Yep, but we'd need to attune the other IOs in the set as well.

 

As someone who lived in Sirens Call, making sure that enhancements were maximized for the desired level was important. (this mind set carried over to IOs)

 

I seem to remember lower level Luck of the Gambler: Defense/+7.5% Recharge costing more that higher level ones. Maybe this was due to availability and falsely reinforced my misunderstanding.

For absolutely maximum performance in Siren's Call, yes, you'd want lvl 33+5 standard IOs or lvl 50+5 PVP/Purples.  But that's a real niche scenario. 

 

Regarding cost, all IOs of the same name are bucketed on the Auction House on Homecoming.  A lvl 50 Gamblers and a lvl 30 Gamblers cost the same because once posted, the AH converts one to the other.  Same for attuned vs non attuned.  A lvl50 posted IO can be purchased as an attuned IO by someone else, saving the need for a Catalyst.  

 

Back in the day, especially before attuning, lower level Gambler's +Rech were more expensive because it's not a proc.  It behaves like a single IO set bonus, so you only get the benefit of it down to lvl - 3.  

[Troo]

Interesting.

I would have thought it was a global.. but I guess now that I am thinking about it, it's not a global unique since we can have 5.

 

Thanks for the explanations. There are so many subtleties it is bound to confuse folks. (honestly I'm a bit embarrassed I had some of it wrong)

 

 

Edited October 9, 2020 by Troo

[Twisted Toon]

The Luck of the Gambler Def/+7.5 Rech enhancement enhances Defense just like any other Defense enhancement would. It just adds a global +7.5 recharge bonus as well.

There are a few other enhancements that are similar, or just have the global bonus (of some sort).

Synapse's Shock: End Mod/+Run speed and Impervium Armor: Psionic Resistance are other examples.

Although, Synapse's Shock is a unique and Impervium Armor is not.

[srmalloy]

9 hours ago, Omega-202 said:

The best scenario is to always attune your procs if feasible, just so you can definitely get any set bonuses.

Or to get the unattuned proc at the minimum level for the set, which gets you the same result. Depends on what's available to you.

[Riverdusk]

8 hours ago, Troo said:

Interesting.

I would have thought it was a global.. but I guess now that I am thinking about it, it's not a global unique since we can have 5.

 

Thanks for the explanations. There are so many subtleties it is bound to confuse folks. (honestly I'm a bit embarrassed I had some of it wrong)

 

 

Different terms being used makes it confusing as well and I had this same conversation the other day in help chat.  I said LoTG acted as a set bonus and the other person was insisting no, it acted as a "global".  It confused me what they even meant by that.  To me, it is both.  It IS global as in the +7.5% recharge bonus is global because it affects your global recharge of your entire character and not just of one power.  I'm guessing they were using the term "global" when they meant proc.  And how it exemps basically comes down to just whether it is a set bonus or proc, it has nothing to do with it being "global" in my mind.

 

An easy way to see if something is a set bonus and will act that way is Menu-Personal Info-Powers tab.  It will list what active set bonuses you have there.  LoTG shows up there as a set bonus.

 

 

[larrywhart2020]

On 10/9/2020 at 4:34 PM, srmalloy said:

Or to get the unattuned proc at the minimum level for the set, which gets you the same result. Depends on what's available to you.

Maybe Frankensteining enhancement sets may reduce diminishing returns, will experiment and report back. 

[Doomguide2005]

Not sure what you mean @PatriotMusic.  Diminishing returns (specifically 'ED' aka Enhancement Diversification) of enhancements is based on the sum of the enhancement values present in a power and their schedule.  In that respect diminishing returns in a power doesn't care how those values are generated whether by frankkenslotting different sets, an actual set, HOs, Hydra, or any combination of them.