Focused Feedback: Energy Melee Revamp

[Hew]

Does pgb + insight (which is an EXTREMELY finicky thing to compare to... when the moon is blue and two rabbits are at the feet of the hill wearing an orange raincoat each) do more than 1200 damage? Just curious. Because that is 1200 damage right there, the vast majority of which is energy damage.

[Replacement]

18 minutes ago, M3z said:

Yeah I never mentioned ET, why doesn't TF fully crit, when something like greater psi blade+insight crits? This set doesn't do the burst of psi melee and probably doesn't do half the DPS of katana, so why doesn't TF crit lol.

TF crits for around 40% of damage, iirc, but it gives you an additional stack of Focus.

 

Captain Powerhouse outlined why this is the case earlier in the thread.  Personally, I prefer this -- a crit TF is usually going to overkill something even at +40% damage.  Instead of wasting that additional, I get to carry it over into the rest of my attack routine.

[M3z]

1 minute ago, Hew said:

Does pgb + insight (which is an EXTREMELY finicky thing to compare to... when the moon is blue and two rabbits are at the feet of the hill wearing an orange raincoat each) do more than 1200 damage? Just curious. Because that is 1200 damage right there, the vast majority of which is energy damage.

How is gpb+insight finicky, what does that mean lol. That it's not easy to generate insight? Because it definitely is and it definitely does way more than 1200 lmao.

 

Rad melee's devastating blow 222 base damage (20 more than total focus) and fully crits, greater psi blade+insight is 300+ base damage and fully crits.

 

I'm just trying to find the logic here. Didn't someone just pylon test this set and it ranks 18 out of 20? lol

[Golden Azrael]

On 10/25/2020 at 2:01 AM, Infinitum said:

Try switching the build up ATO to EP I was able to average 1:40s and that was with agility as the alpha.

 

Also had body mastery.

 

Best time was 1:11

 

Oh just noticed something else, switch assault radial to core.  It favors the big dmg hits of EM more.

I had the Assault Core on my Beta EM/Bio.

 

I found it helped with the damage.  ie.  The big hits.

 

BOOM!

 

Azrael.

 

A crit ET?  😮

Edited October 26, 2020 by Golden Azrael

[Golden Azrael]

1 hour ago, LQT said:

They roll particularly well across the floor after ET'ing themselves when MoG is running! Always handy when a scrapper is kind enough to come along as Vengbait for the team 😛
 

So the set melts under slight heat? You might have your metaphor backwards there if you are meaning to say it "cuts through butter [like a hot knife]".
 

A lot of your posts come off as extremely superfluous with little to no actual substance to them, however this makes me think you're just flat out trolling at this point. ET, as mentioned by a lot of others in this thread, was known for being a ST boss killing machine on Tanks originally in the early issues and continued to be a ST focused set after CoV launched. It was entirely based around doing ST damage [bar the limited options where WH was available] so calling it "slow on bosses" is flat out wrong and suggests you didn't actually play it on live since your description is the complete opposite of what people used it for - and I say this as someone who played since i4 and did use the set because of that ST focus on Tanks, Brutes, and Stalkers.
 

 

The Page 5 update with several of the new enhancement sets.

The Artillery set didn't even exist at first as the original set known as Shrapnel was determined in subsequent builds to be too powerful to grant both various set buffs AND work as a tAoE "Thunderstrike" IO set for Ranged Def bonuses. So it was split in 2 and renamed to Bombardment while keeping slightly nerfed set numbers to not make the PosiBlast set obsolete, and the Artillery set was created with the Ranged Def bonuses.

This was in March of this year.

The nerfs to Shrapnel actually caused quite a few players/testers to voice their annoyance as they'd really liked what the original Shrapnel set effects were, although likely because of how OP it was in it's original state.

 

 

This is how stalkers work currently in game with Stalkers Focus as a chance on attack to generate, not a guaranteed proc on every non-AS 1' attack. That said it would make such a mechanic possibly even worse were 2 such systems in effect on the same set/toon for EM stalkers trying to not only generate an out-of-Hide [OOH] AS crit, but also trying to generate EF for FET.

Although given how other 1' sets differ on Stalkers compared with other ATs [Kin melee BU/t9 for example] there is precedence for slightly different mechanics across ATs with the same powersets due to the more evasive nature of the Stalker AT compared to things that can be more upfront about their damage intake like Brutes and Scrappers.

 

Wait, what's wrong with Stone Melee >.>

 

EM wise tried remaking my old i6 EM/Nin but that's just going to get binned as I still detest click mez shields. Ended up with an EM/EA as have run EA on enough brutes and stalkers so can see how the 1' changes work around what the 2' needs done. In a similar boat as those who would have considered TF become a Thunder Strike-like PBAoE however also very much against all powersets becoming too homogenised so maybe giving EM a clone of another PBAoE would have been the wrong choice there in the end.

In general the new EM covers a lot more than I would have taken from any powerset previously, not to a point it feels bloated as a set but both the Nin and EA stalkers didn't really need an epic pool in the end as EM had more than enough to fill out a suitable number of powers that covered ST and AoE when needed. The obvious lack of a ranged option is really more player preference so negligible here. Additionally with picking EA as the 2' set there didn't seem to be as much of a need to focus on Body Mastery to improve Recovery as quite a few posts earlier suggest due to EndCost changes. EndDrain and similar powers can open up more power choices so there's a degree of flexibility in player choice depending on other sets picked..

 

Stalkers managed a very smooth attack chain flowing from [FET]-EP-TF-3SFAS+Hide-FET-repeat on ST with AoE likely similar however ST testing is far easier with pylons and VG base dummies [when they bother to spawn that is]. Recharges seemed to off some good options on damage proc IOs too. Had originally gone with a proc monster AS but after testing something else the proc rates on other powers meant there were also options to move some things around.

 

Brute encountered some of the issues brought up by some about Tanks regarding some AoE bloat and whether WH and PC might become an either/or situation. Will take another stab at testing that when able to look through the builder and get some more time tweeking things.

 

So far the rework is interesting, although vacuum testing á la Patchwerk is never going to give a great measure of how AoE situations turn out or encounters with any movement.

One thing that does stick out is whether the new TF animation is meant to be missing the connect sound on strikes. Might be a result of the faster animation, however even attacks that hit make no connect sound so knowing whether TF actually hit either requires a HP bar short enough to see changes on or looking at the combat log mid fight. EF occurring regardless of a hit or miss isn't exactly helpful in that matter.

Lots of superfluous stuff in there.  I kinda of switched off under the barrage of words.

 

I guess you didn't like the substance of what I had to say.  😛

 

We 'know' it was the 'big hitter' (in its day) but the hype of the whole set didn't match the dull, plodding reality.  It was a grind fest.  And dull to play.

 

The Tier attacks.  Very light on damage.  Attack chain very repeat-itive.  Sure the TF was ok and ET hit big.  Pre-nerf.  But it's very dated now.  Post nerf.  All very?  Slow to animate 'big' hitters had you levitating in air whistling a tune whilst the rest of the team had killed it and moved on.

 

You played since 4, eh?  

 

I played since before that.  Issue 4 wasn't that hot for a few reasons.

 

Trolling?  Don't feed the trolls, remember? 😛

 

I love the new EM.  Faster.  Bigger damage.  More versatile.  Stronger.  More powerful.  Just MOAR!  We have more AoE that can stack.  And a choice of three big hitters now with the TF inciting Energy focus.  I like the new stuff.

 

Less monotonous.  Adds an extra dimension that the old EM just didn't have.  It's old.  The nerf only added window dressing to the ET with a cool animation.  Which I like, ofc.

 

Azrael.

 

PS.  Nothing wrong with Stone Melee that I can see.  Great set.  Fun to play.  Rocks.   It's aged far better than EM.

Edited October 26, 2020 by Golden Azrael

[Neogumbercules]

15 hours ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

Hey everyone
 
Thank you for the feedback so far.
 
I completely understand that some players ardently dislike conditional mechanics, many of the early iterations to Energy Melee changes tried their best to avoid them, but in the end, Energy Transfer is a special mechanic power that is ridiculously hard to balance without a more elaborate approach.
 
For those concerned about other legacy sets, I can’t promise specifics, but I will do my best to avoid complex combos. Super Strength, Fiery Melee, Stone Melee, they won’t be getting combos. In the interest of full disclosure, Broad Sword might be getting a purely additive Parry focused mechanic, but that is in extremely early draft stages.
 
Now, I am not asking anyone to stop posting feedback, but agree to disagree, let others express their discontent and feedback, and focus on your own personal feedback, not theirs. It will make the job of going through everyone’s feedback much smoother.

 

Sticking with the mechanic idea, personally I like the idea of Momentum as a short buff that will effect your powers while it's active.  If I were to suggest a change to EM's mechanic I would change it so it isn't like a "builder/spender" system. Instead I'd keep powers within the set that have a chance to give the player an Energy Focus buff that lasts for 5 seconds (or whatever) and isn't consumed by a "spender." TF being the 100% chance to grant, as it currently is. This way you have a chance to pop off a couple of focused attacks in the duration of Energy Focus before it wears off, and if players optimize enough, they can have a build that gives them as much Energy Focus uptime as they can get. I'd also change build up to "Build Energy" or something and allow that to function the same way Build Momentum does from TW.

 

Yes I understand the irony of buffing a powerset to be more like TW in the same patch that we're nerfing TW 😛

 

That said, I personally really like the way it is on beta right now because we get to keep that feeling of EM, particularly ET, being a very powerful, which I think is the most important thing to preserve.

 

I'd also accept removal of the mechanic for a straight reversion of ET (and keep the new PBAOE).

[Golden Azrael]

15 hours ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

Hey everyone
 
Thank you for the feedback so far.
 
I completely understand that some players ardently dislike conditional mechanics, many of the early iterations to Energy Melee changes tried their best to avoid them, but in the end, Energy Transfer is a special mechanic power that is ridiculously hard to balance without a more elaborate approach.
 
For those concerned about other legacy sets, I can’t promise specifics, but I will do my best to avoid complex combos. Super Strength, Fiery Melee, Stone Melee, they won’t be getting combos. In the interest of full disclosure, Broad Sword might be getting a purely additive Parry focused mechanic, but that is in extremely early draft stages.
 
Now, I am not asking anyone to stop posting feedback, but agree to disagree, let others express their discontent and feedback, and focus on your own personal feedback, not theirs. It will make the job of going through everyone’s feedback much smoother.

 

You're welcome.  An excellent job on the EM reforge.

 

Some players don't like mechanics.  (Eg.  I'm not fond of Titan Weapons clunky mechanic or the OTT damage.)  But broadly, I do like them.  When done well.  And the EM 'Energy Focus' has been done really well hear.  Next level stuff.  I haven't enjoyed a mechanic this much since Dual Blades, SJ or Auto Snipe.  It really elevates EM to a whole new level that it just didn't have on live pre or post nerf.

 

ET is a good 'Big Hit' power that is now worthy of the name with some great refinements now.  eg. End removed.  Faster recharge.  Short and Long versions.  Including both was a clever move.  I certainly would like old timer CoH players have access to that.  And I do still favour the new.  But having both in mixed BiG Hitting is glorious.  It's like super powered M' Ali.

 

All the old sets are just that.  Old.  If  a good idea comes up to elevate Stone in such a way?  Try it.  Eg.  Stone gets a fiery DoT buff called Magma.  Magma from eg. Fault?  Allows all your hits to have Fire DoT on them.  But as is.  Stone is 'so good' and has 'aged so well' that it wouldn't worry me if it didn't have a mechanic.  Not all sets need one.  Stone plays so well and rumbles smoothly during a fight.  Super Strength has 'Rage.'  It already has it's 'cool idea.'  Ice seems better on Tankers these days with their AoE damage seeming brighter.  (Or it is on my incarnate uber build.)  If Broad Sword is next (one set I've never tried...too much...) than I'd give it a go.  But for me.  EM has been transformed for the better with the Energy Focus mechanic.  You can spend it as you please or not at all.  Both fans of the old and new get a slice of cake.  And the set feels more damaging on the tiers.  More Stun.  Single and AOE boosted and stacked.

 

This was clearly a labour of love.  For me, whether it's the most damaging melee set now...is less material than it just (like Stone) being so much fun to play.

 

I wished everyone could enjoy it how I am.  It's barnstorming stuff.  (I do have a L40 HC EM/Invul' re-roll of my live.  And it's night and day with the new Beta EM/Bio.  The old one plays so slow. )

 

Azrael.

Edited October 26, 2020 by Golden Azrael

[Hew]

29 minutes ago, Replacement said:

TF crits for around 40% of damage, iirc, but it gives you an additional stack of Focus.

 

Captain Powerhouse outlined why this is the case earlier in the thread.  Personally, I prefer this -- a crit TF is usually going to overkill something even at +40% damage.  Instead of wasting that additional, I get to carry it over into the rest of my attack routine.

@M3z see above. You might want to see what you can do with the extra focus stack. 

 

@Replacementthank you for repeating this in a short form. 🙂

[M3z]

10 minutes ago, Hew said:

@M3z see above. You might want to see what you can do with the extra focus stack. 

 

@Replacementthank you for repeating this in a short form. 🙂

I've been on test with a min/max build, extra focus stack doesn't equal to essentially not critting at all on your 2 biggest attacks (if someone tries to mention to me the 28% crit damage please just stop lol). Energy transfer not critting, makes sense to me, total focus only critting 28%, makes no sense. I like the energy focus mechanic but yeah still not understanding not getting crits on crit based ATs.

 

Dev blow/GPB both full crit, both have higher base damage. Again didn't someone pylon test this and it ranked 18/20?

 

TF critting might be overkill for how you play, but it isn't for what I do.

[Troo]

10 hours ago, Infinitum said:

Did you happen to see my pylon clear times?  And again pylon isn't the end all be all, because my EM EA scrapper clears the infernal mission faster than my Stalker, but the stalker has a better pylon time.

 

Kinda like GBs office scenario, it can't be the best AT everything - then you have another TW situation.  If he could only learn to slot WP.... 😉

 

I think thats also the cool thing about the new EM - its very versatile, and it plays a bit differently across all 4 ATs - very much not cookie cutter - which I honestly wish was a sentiment that was expanded more with other powersets.  Cause you really want each powerset to feel unique when you play it on a different AT.

Pylon times are a good indicator of hard target performance. You did great on a max build. Your times are usually really good.

I'd be just or more impressed if you'd done an average build so successfully.

 

However, pre-nerf I could take on entire groups solo. Stuns were a big component. Being able have powers available on demand in various orders was also key.

 

I totally agree on the preference for a variety of powersets. The more unique the better.

To me the Energy Assault power set felt too much like other sets I didn't like.

I would love to play Dual Blades but don't like some functionality. So "okay, I guess thats for other folks that like it". Titan Weapons.. /em pukerainbows... Battle Ax! Nice, I guess that's my style.

 

If the reason for the big change is to shoehorn in a smidge more AoE for meta reasons or a different functionality for playstyle.. Maybe we are getting too far from what Energy Melee is.

 

Kinetic Melee and Street Justice exist for a reason.

 

*Steps down from soap box*

I like and appreciate some of the adjustments!!

Edited October 26, 2020 by Troo

[Infinitum]

8 minutes ago, Troo said:

Kinetic Melee and Street Justice exist for a reason.

I play DB, and STJ and new EM really isn't anything like them.  DB you HAVE to attack in a certain order or you dont get a bonus across 3- attacks.

 

STJ you HAVE to lead with potentially weaker attacks at least 3 times to get max combo for the big hitters.

[Troo]

Just now, Infinitum said:

I play DB, and STJ and new EM really isn't anything like them.  DB you HAVE to attack in a certain order or you dont get a bonus across 3- attacks.

 

STJ you HAVE to lead with potentially weaker attacks at least 3 times to get max combo for the big hitters.

Yep, yep. You get my point though.

(I only have enough experience with some sets to say "not for me" which never stopped me from trying again a year later and saying the same thing)

[Infinitum]

19 minutes ago, M3z said:

Dev blow/GPB both full crit, both have higher base damage. Again didn't someone pylon test this and it ranked 18/20?

No, that was a mission simulator on SOs.

 

If you look back - my pylon number are pretty darn good and I'm not building for max dmg.

 

I think the unique take for a TF Crit on EM is you have the option for the best dpa attack in the game twice in the matter of seconds in fast ET.

 

The overall number doesnt matter if you are getting max DPS or DPA.

 

Even old EM wouldn't keep up with the max burst number of GPB on insight with a crit, but you also dont get locked out of focus like you do insight on GPB.

 

With focus you can literally do it as fast as you can recharge TF.

[Infinitum]

1 minute ago, Troo said:

Yep, yep. You get my point though.

(I only have enough experience with some sets to say "not for me" which never stopped me from trying again a year later and saying the same thing)

I'm not really sure how that relates to EM - because its a lot easier than any of those.

[Troo]

27 minutes ago, M3z said:

I've been on test with a min/max build, extra focus stack doesn't equal to essentially not critting at all on your 2 biggest attacks (if someone tries to mention to me the 28% crit damage please just stop lol). Energy transfer not critting, makes sense to me, total focus only critting 28%, makes no sense. I like the energy focus mechanic but yeah still not understanding not getting crits on crit based ATs.

 

Dev blow/GPB both full crit, both have higher base damage. Again didn't someone pylon test this and it ranked 18/20?

 

TF critting might be overkill for how you play, but it isn't for what I do.

The rankings were NOT for pylons. It did awesome on pylons.

 

It was more for overall performance in a controlled study compared to other powers sets.

 

Edited October 26, 2020 by Troo

[Replacement]

11 hours ago, Troo said:

I'm not sure what you meant: "You didn't have fast ET as an option at all." Do you mean on the Live version? That's a little obvious. (Now I'm imagining you stomping your feet while saying it)

You were doing fine but you just had to try to slide in one more barb, didn't you?  Hint: I'm not the one in this thread people are reading as petulant.

 

Analogy:

For your good behavior, I have decided to reward you with dessert.  You can choose a slice of cake or a donut.

You may only have 1, as I do not think it's healthy for you to have both.

 

You, in the post chain you are quoting, were making the argument that bone smasher is worse because getting the stun means losing fast-ET.  I was merely pointing out to you how that is not a "cost" relative to Live, which has no fast-ET at all.  You are getting your choice of dessert, above and beyond what you already had.  To go back to my analogy, it was the equivalent of saying "this isn't a reward, it's a punishment.  Evidence: I cannot have both."

 

Now, that simple clarification out of the way: I look forward to your hijinx in other, non-EM threads.  But we are done here.  I will only respond to you for mechanical inquiries.

[Troo]

Just now, Replacement said:

11 hours ago, Troo said:

I'm not sure what you meant: "You didn't have fast ET as an option at all." Do you mean on the Live version? That's a little obvious. (Now I'm imagining you stomping your feet while saying it)

You were doing fine but you just had to try to slide in one more barb, didn't you?  Hint: I'm not the one in this thread people are reading as petulant.

That was meant as lighthearted. I didn't actually think you were stomping your feet.

Apologies.

I'll remove it if you like.

[Infinitum]

3 minutes ago, Troo said:

The rankings were NOT for pylons. It did awesome on pylons.

 

It was more for overall performance in a controlled study compared to other powers sets.

 

As with any of those sets that number would go up with better enh and sets.

 

It is a ST set so to maximize your takedown power you need a good portion of recharge, and for my tastes I like to maximize survivability.

 

Like Rep stated its within a few seconds of a good many other sets in that test - which is actually good because the melee sets are pretty darn balanced at this point with a few outliers at the bottom needing a buff IMO.

[Replacement]

@TrooI meant the part about enjoying your hijinx in other threads so, /salute and no hard feelings when we're out of EM waters.  Deal?

 

--

 

To attempt to stay on-task: I did some more "feel" testing last night. This time level 40 Shield/EM Tank, moderately-IO'd.  I built this character about like I would on live, meaning mostly cheap sets that are self-funded by a dude who doesn't do a lot of playing the market, but probably sent a wee bit of money to afford the 2 PvP survival mods (the 5% resist and 3% defense).  This feels like I have two choices when I enter combat: surgical strikes to immediately reduce incoming damage, or just beat on everyone with PC and WH.  I find Power Crash to be pretty disappointing for damage, but having it hit an entire room with Focus up is easy and feels good.  On this power combo, I found myself erring on the side of an aoe focus when Shield Charge was up, and otherwise attempting to assassinate large threats first.

 

I think the Assassin Tank angle is definitely different from everything else in the game.  I was playing in +2/x6 without much issue* but I imagine in full team scenarios, I would aim to start fights by eliminating LTs (leaving Bosses to Stalkers, Scrappers, or generally anyone on the team I deem ST-oriented).

 

*Strangely and surprisingly, my largest issue was actually Endurance.  I did not expect to regularly be under half End at level 40, but I realized at the end of the night that I forgot to slot a performance shifter.

 

EDIT: I liked 40 because it's a point where you can be "build-complete" while still understanding the flow of leveling.  The final ride to 50 would mostly explore adding in Epics, and then 50 begins to become a lot more about high-end building, incarnates, and generally not the territory I stick around long ("alting is the end game" is certainly more of my speed.)

Edited October 26, 2020 by Replacement

[Troo]

31 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

I'm not really sure how that relates to EM - because its a lot easier than any of those.

'easier' just does not equal 'doesn't have a component some dislike'.

 

I do get what you're saying and I'm giving it a solid chance.

 

Trying multiple ATs at various levels of play with different build make ups. It's early for my absolute opinion.

That doesn't change the fact that I keep thinking: Couldn't we do this without the combo, why the combo, what is the combo doing that makes it necessary.

 

There does appear to be a bit of overperforming potential at the top and while not doing as well lower down the food chain. This is kind of the rub with high damage sets.

 

This is partly what made GB's rankings a bit startling.. maybe it's not performing as well as it seems to be. I hope they have a similar EM specific post that's in the works. (I'd expect mid pack ranking for the amount of change)

 

Edited October 26, 2020 by Troo

[Menelruin]

22 hours ago, Infinitum said:

and they are had without it, ET if it had no focus applied had its recharge reduced, does all energy dmg now, and also cost no endurance.

 

TF had its animation shortened.

 

EP got a dmg buff

 

WH got a dmg buff

 

we got an additional AOE in PC

 

and all that is before you throw a mechanic in the mix, which is again, simply activating TF which is a solidly good power now that it had its animation time reduced.

 

You keep saying part time, but the fact is with the reduced recharge its up a lot more than it was Pre Nerf - ET.  But its so simple its pretty darn close to ET being full time fast.

 

Here are some more numbers for ya.

 

Invul/EM  4:07 Beta    
Invul/EM  6:03 Live    

Fire/EM     2:53 Beta   
Fire/EM     3:49 Live    

EM/EA SC  2:32 Beta    
EM/Ni SC  2:13 Beta    
EM/EA ST  1:11 Beta   
EM/EA ST  3:14 Live

 

Even if I didnt apply focus i would have improved my numbers from live because of the ET change, the TF change, and the EP change.

 

There is literally no way you can say this isnt an improvement over pre nerf or live - it just isnt what you wanted, and you are allowed to not like it. 

 

But its not accurate say they arent positive or good changes.

Did you already make a kickass build for an En/EnA scrapper?!

 

*holds out beggar's bowl pitifully*

 

Please, sah....

[Infinitum]

11 minutes ago, Troo said:

This is partly what made GB's rankings a bit startling.. maybe it's not performing as well as it seems to be. I hope they have a similar EM specific post that's in the works. (I'd expect mid pack ranking for the amount of change)

On IOs it's there, and it's within 10s of every set around it.  The test is more for balance of all sets than testing 1 specific set.

 

For instance different primary, secondary preferences may pair better.  WP is across the board in the middle.

[Infinitum]

2 minutes ago, Menelruin said:

Did you already make a kickass build for an En/EnA scrapper?!

 

*holds out beggar's bowl pitifully*

 

Please, sah....

Why yes, yes I did.  :-)

 

you have to use STJ in place of EM though cause it doesnt exist on mids yet.

Edited October 26, 2020 by Infinitum

[ScarySai]

The reliance on total focus to get fast ET off is no doubt an intentional balancing attempt. That's why I don't see any scenario where that gets lifted.

 

More ways to generate focus would be a lot more plausible as far as buffs go.

Edited October 26, 2020 by ScarySai

[kenlon]

12 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

you have to use STJ in place of EM though cause it doesnt exist on mids yet.

Hmm. Wonder if we could bribe the Mid's devs to put out an Issue 27 Beta dataset for us to play with. . .