Focused Feedback: Trick Arrow Revamp

[brass_eagle]

4 hours ago, Luminara said:

 

Numerically, TA is actually right where you say it isn't, at the middle.  It doesn't debuff some things as well as Storm or Rad, but it also isn't sitting at the bottom of the barrel on anything, in comparison to any set, and it debuffs some things better than any other set.  Where comparisons can be made, apples to apples, it's middle of the road with the current changes, and in no case is it too low to be viable in anything.

 

But all of what I've said is presuming defender values.  TA needs to be tested on masterminds to ensure that it's truly where it needs to be.  If it passes there, it's solid.  If not, then I'll wholeheartedly agree with your assessment and start shouting at CP.

Let me restate my position as it my have been unclear or a bit jumbled, and I'll leave it at that.

 

I never intended to mean TA was not a middling set. That's what these changes do. Bring TA to a middling level. Yes, there is more to the game that -def/-ToHit.  I do know that. Everyone knows that.  TA does bring more to the table.

 

In my opinion, TA should not be a middling debuff set where it's entire power repertoire is debuffs (save for the EMP arrow addition, but see my previous comments on those). TA should be close to the top of debuffs. Bringing up the Rad example again, It has a team heal, AM, rez--in addition.

 

These changes are great! My feedback, based from my opinion and my initial testing experience, is in the tone that there needs a little bit more. These changes are a start, more is needed! That's what the feedback forum is for. 🙂 I'm curious to see what others think.

[Luminara]

13 minutes ago, Replacement said:

Same.  I've been hoping to see us move away from self-excluding buff sets instead of adding more (Elec affinity being able to chain back to self for a lesser effect is the ideal, IMO).

 

But for EMP Arrow specifically, it gets even weirder... I wouldn't want to see folks incentivized to shoot their own feet.  I don't really know how to fix that, though.

 

If the TA has the gumption to stand within the AoE radius, he/she should gain the same benefits as the other players in the radius.  I'm not sure what prompted @Captain Powerhouse to exclude the caster.

[brass_eagle]

8 minutes ago, Luminara said:

 

If the TA has the gumption to stand within the AoE radius, he/she should gain the same benefits as the other players in the radius.  I'm not sure what prompted @Captain Powerhouse to exclude the caster.

Agreed, this is my main problem with that power. Might be a good idea to rename it too. EMPing myself... somehow doesn't sound healthy.

Edited October 25, 2020 by brass_eagle

[Replacement]

8 minutes ago, Luminara said:

 

If the TA has the gumption to stand within the AoE radius, he/she should gain the same benefits as the other players in the radius.  I'm not sure what prompted @Captain Powerhouse to exclude the caster.

This is an area that's more about theme and expected playstyle..  You're shooting an EMP arrow; not dropping a gadget at your feet.  It feels to me as though it goes against the theme of the set to incentivize shooting your own feet.  And with a long-ish recharge, it would feel like you aren't getting the most out of it any time you fire it at-range.  This would become the goto advice propogated here on the forums and on discord: "hey make sure you jump in and shoot down."  It also risks overshadowing the EMP effect, with folks gathering for the buff instead of using it offensively while already engaged.  So those are not the "hawkeye" gameplay styles this set is designed to fill.

 

EDIT: this structure seems like I'm trying to explain why you're wrong but I really just was using your post to muse more on the topic. 😛  I don't want to boom myself, but I also don't want to be excluded!

Edited October 25, 2020 by Replacement

[WindDemon21]

24 minutes ago, Replacement said:

Same.  I've been hoping to see us move away from self-excluding buff sets instead of adding more (Elec affinity being able to chain back to self for a lesser effect is the ideal, IMO).

 

But for EMP Arrow specifically, it gets even weirder... I wouldn't want to see folks incentivized to shoot their own feet.  I don't really know how to fix that, though.

Have it create a faraday cage where it lands.

 

I also still feel it gravely needs a rech reduction too.

[4th.survivor]

20 hours ago, Doomrider said:

Daaaaamn girl. 

Daaamn what?  I just don't understand the changes to acid and entangling.  Trick arrow should get some love, and it's nice to see - but this makes no sense to me.  Applying acid to a target makes them more likely to be slowed by your glue?  and blinded by your flash?  This is not what acid arrow should be doing.  Acid burns things and corrodes.  Keep the -res, it makes more sense here than entangling arrow of all things. This is an iffy change, if magical debuff effects need to be thrown in, put them on disruption arrow - at least that one is using weird vibrations to cause some sort of change to the target's resist capacity.

 

20 hours ago, Keen said:

This is way less "entangling" now. -Res is great, but it makes... zero sense? How about giving the power a new name to reflect that it "burns the target's armor" or something?

100%, except there is already a power that does this with no need to change it - acid arrow, and it has a radius as well.

[Monos King]

18 hours ago, brass_eagle said:

• Happy to have a buff (this is not a controller set-- holds plz)
• I do feel like this is the second single-target debuff (entangling arrow) in this set. I can't think of another set that has that.  With the buff this feels more like [Sonic Siphon] or [Corrosive Enzymes] than a power later in the set. The debuff needs to be stronger and less spammable like [Benumb] or something else useful and creative. Maybe small Ice Patch? Or.. I dunno. All I know is I will be grateful for the buff, but think it is wasted on a power that I believe still WILL BE SKIPPED 100% (by me) in its current, buffed state.

Actually, ice also has two single target debuffs, which is an issue in its own right. This is more a comment about benumb, but Ice Arrow is highly powerful and you'd be wrong to think it's skippable if you want performance. As used by a defender, it has 

1. Longer range than benumb (and weaken)
2. Much much much faster rech than benumb
3. 2X the duration of benumb
4. The same -special as benumb
5. Also is a hold and does -rech

Now ice arrow might still be bad to some, but it's definitely the second best -special move now. Spammable, fast recharge, longest range...might even overcome the splash of poisons weaken to be the best.

[brass_eagle]

4 minutes ago, Monos King said:

Actually, ice also has two single target debuffs, which is an issue in its own right. This is more a comment about benumb, but Ice Arrow is highly powerful and you'd be wrong to think it's skippable if you want performance. As used by a defender, it has 

1. Longer range than benumb (and weaken)
2. Much much much faster rech than benumb
3. 2X the duration of benumb
4. The same -special as benumb
5. Also is a hold and does -rech

Now ice arrow might still be bad to some, but it's definitely the second best -special move now. Spammable, fast recharge, longest range...might even overcome the splash of poisons weaken to be the best.

You are right. I retract my comment there. I somehow completely skipped over the -special in my notes and went down the wrong train of thought. The -special makes the power.

 

Thanks for pointing that out. Carry on.

[Monos King]

2 minutes ago, Replacement said:

This is an area that's more about theme and expected playstyle..  You're shooting an EMP arrow; not dropping a gadget at your feet.  It feels to me as though it goes against the theme of the set to incentivize shooting your own feet.  And with a long-ish recharge, it would feel like you aren't getting the most out of it any time you fire it at-range.  This would become the goto advice propogated here on the forums and on discord: "hey make sure you jump in and shoot down."  It also risks overshadowing the EMP effect, with folks gathering for the buff instead of using it offensively while already engaged.  So those are not the "hawkeye" gameplay styles this set is designed to fill.

 

 

That doesn't make sense when the user is unleashing a beneficial power though, logically the user would want to be in radius of it too. Now that EMP offers a buff, for that power, whatever long distance affinity was engrained in theme is not relevant.

[Replacement]

7 minutes ago, 4th.survivor said:

Daaamn what?  I just don't understand the changes to acid and entangling.  Trick arrow should get some love, and it's nice to see - but this makes no sense to me.  Applying acid to a target makes them more likely to be slowed by your glue?  and blinded by your flash?  This is not what acid arrow should be doing.  Acid burns things and corrodes.  Keep the -res, it makes more sense here than entangling arrow of all things. This is an iffy change, if magical debuff effects need to be thrown in, put them on disruption arrow - at least that one is using weird vibrations to cause some sort of change to the target's resist capacity.

 

100%, except there is already a power that does this with no need to change it - acid arrow, and it has a radius as well.

1) it's lowering your enemy's resistance to stuff.  For example, if your acid can eat through the outer coating on Iron Man's armor, it may make him more vulnerable to EMP effects.

 

2) Part of TA's problem is having all your power spread all over the place.  Why would I shoot two weak -Res arrows when I can shoot a single strong one?  Isn't it more on-theme to have a purpose for every arrow, instead of fumbling around for two separate arrows in your quiver to lower resistance?

 

Finally, there's a budget for ST and AoE debuffs at play.  With Disruption Arrow already eating Acid's budget for AOE -Resist, simply adding it back to Acid for more of the same is completely missing the point.

 

So instead, we have DA for strong, simple -res to a whole group.  And you have Entangling arrow to stack some more on single, hardened targets.

Edited October 25, 2020 by Replacement

[Replacement]

1 minute ago, Monos King said:

That doesn't make sense when the user is unleashing a beneficial power though, logically the user would want to be in radius of it too. Now that EMP offers a buff, for that power, whatever long distance affinity was engrained in theme is not relevant.

Which is why I don't like it.  I'm ok with Buff Arrow, but I don't want to drop it at my feet.  I don't think you're striking down anything I'm saying here?

[Monos King]

5 minutes ago, 4th.survivor said:

Daaamn what?  I just don't understand the changes to acid and entangling.  Trick arrow should get some love, and it's nice to see - but this makes no sense to me.  Applying acid to a target makes them more likely to be slowed by your glue?  and blinded by your flash?  This is not what acid arrow should be doing.  Acid burns things and corrodes.  Keep the -res, it makes more sense here than entangling arrow of all things. This is an iffy change, if magical debuff effects need to be thrown in, put them on disruption arrow - at least that one is using weird vibrations to cause some sort of change to the target's resist capacity.

You definitely missed the updated patch notes so I'll deliver the good news. Oh it does -res, alright. Acid Arrow is now TA's set defining move. No joke. It does -debuff resistance. You know how AVs are practically immune to debuffs? Not if you get some TA's together, they aren't. It attacks their debuff resistance directly, making those immune vulnerable and those vulnerable even more vulnerable.

[Monos King]

2 minutes ago, Replacement said:

Which is why I don't like it.  I'm ok with Buff Arrow, but I don't want to drop it at my feet.  I don't think you're striking down anything I'm saying here?

You are saying you do not want the buff arrow to affect the caster are you not?

[Replacement]

2 minutes ago, Monos King said:

You are saying you do not want the buff arrow to affect the caster are you not?

I don't want to boom myself, but I also don't want to be excluded!  My original point was this whole aspect of Buff Arrow is a "weird situation."

[Monos King]

Just now, Replacement said:

I don't want to boom myself, but I also don't want to be excluded!  My original point was this whole aspect of Buff Arrow is a "weird situation."

Oh. Well, yeah, giving an AoE powers affects for hostiles and homies alike was gonna be odd but if it works I suppose we'll just have to settle in. Not the first logical compromise I've accepted for this set to succeed.

[Luminara]

17 minutes ago, brass_eagle said:

In my opinion, TA should not be a middling debuff set where it's entire power repertoire is debuffs (save for the EMP arrow addition, but see my previous comments on those). TA should be close to the top of debuffs.

  

It is close to the top.  It's better at some debuffs (something i never expected to say, but here we are), not as good at others, and it's got a wider range of debuffs than most support sets.  It's unlikely that the HC team will improve the debuffs any further, given how powerful they are now and their stated objective of evening out the differences between "best of the best" and "worst of the worst".  Unless someone can show some conclusive evidence that there's still a survivability issue, the numbers on it now probably won't change.

 

It's really all going to come down to how the set performs for masterminds.  That's where any survivability problems will manifest.  For defenders, the -Dam and -ToHit alone are guaranteed survivability factors.  Controllers and corruptors shouldn't see many problems, either.  And for all three of those archetypes, the increased -Res, -Regen and newly added -Special will open the doors to the AV parties, as well as aiding them much more in regular play.  But masterminds... if the set drops the ball for that archetype, then we're talking about needing more to bring it up to par.

[4th.survivor]

Just now, Monos King said:

That doesn't make sense when the user is unleashing a beneficial power though, logically the user would want to be in radius of it too. Now that EMP offers a buff, for that power, whatever long distance affinity was engrained in theme is not relevant.

I think it is relevant.  We are not traps.  We do not drop effects at our feet to hamper foes or aid allies.  We are trick arrows, we fire things over there exclusively to make problems for the enemy.  If the arrow is affecting us, we are doing our job wrong. It's why we don't have the healing arrow (and why that is a CoH meme). So what makes this power a bit weird now is that it does all that while also assisting our friends. It's already sort of accepted that our fire doesn't burn our friends since there is no friendly fire in this game (thankfully), but it's a bit weird to have an arrow that both holds our enemies and shields our friends, don't you think?  Like either the power description ought to address this nonintuitive inconsistency, or the designers shoehorning this effect ought to rethink their rethink.

Each of Trick Arrow's powers are more or less duplicating a power from another set, in the form of an arrow. Disruption arrow should match thematically with sonic. Acid and Poison gas arrows more or less retroactively fits with poison. Others, like oil slick, are more unique. Entangling and Glue arrow ought to be similar to other web powers.

Here's what I expect when I fire an EMP arrow:  It's the exact same t9 as rad emission, but targeted AoE instead of PbAoE (The arrow goes over 'THERE' while the radiations comes from 'ME'). It should be useable mainly in one of two ways, to contribute to cutting an AV/GM's regen (and hopefully better than envenomed dagger temps for this), or it should let me hit the reset button on a mistake my group made biting off more than it can chew by shutting down the second front or the whole pack while getting started stacking holds on bosses/EB's, shifting the fight back in my group's favour.  Therefore, changes to EMP ought to focus around getting the -regen just right such that it's useful for this purpose (they did this, cool) and being useful enough to accomplish the control aspect (thanks for removing the crash, for real).  Adding the resistance buff to allies is a bit weird and quite rightly pointed out, should radiation emission expect the same for EM Pulse?  No? Is this being done because the middle powers of trick arrow are underperforming? I suspect the answer that is yes, so let's focus on those ones.

What the rework is doing is creating a framework where powers are ALSO other powers.  Entangling arrow is also a 2/3's sonic siphon, better not skip that.  EMP arrow is rad emission's EM Pulse PLUS a sort of lite-version of increase density from kinetics, better not skip that.  It would be more thematic to add in more -damage debuff to EMP arrow if the goal is to have things hit by the arrow deal less damage to your team - but this is already what poison gas arrow does, so if the set as a whole needs more -damage debuff than concentrate that in the power that already does that so people can take it and get that benefit without having to take it across two powers and pickup the entire set for all the hidden benefits.

Thanks for skimming.

[Monos King]

4 minutes ago, 4th.survivor said:

I think it is relevant.  We are not traps. 

It's definitely odd. I call the fact that you ordinarily would stay at a distance irrelevant because in this unusual case that would be very unideal. You would want to enjoy the benefits of you debuff-buff. So in this case, and as long as it is, you just sorta have to dismiss that familiar approach.

 

Just like -res in entangling. The buff pulse was added to EMP purely to amp performance. To that end it should also affect the caster. It doesn't make the most logical sense, but assuming we are going down that route, the feedback I have is in support of the EMP AoE affecting self, regardless of if we are used to staying at distance.

[brass_eagle]

5 minutes ago, Monos King said:

It's definitely odd. I call the fact that you ordinarily would stay at a distance irrelevant because in this unusual case that would be very unideal. You would want to enjoy the benefits of you debuff-buff. So in this case, and as long as it is, you just sorta have to dismiss that familiar approach.

 

Just like -res in entangling. The buff pulse was added to EMP purely to amp performance. To that end it should also affect the caster. It doesn't make the most logical sense, but assuming we are going down that route, the feedback I have is in support of the EMP AoE affecting self, regardless of if we are used to staying at distance.

I really like this idea. The buff still centers around the target but also affects the caster at any distance.  Let's this very ranged set stay at ranged if it wants benefit.

[Monos King]

25 minutes ago, Luminara said:

But masterminds... if the set drops the ball for that archetype, then we're talking about needing more to bring it up to par.

I've had some time to look at it, but I'll be doing more team play now as well. Right now it's MM survivability is still lackluster.

Sleep is not usable to MMs, and the -dmg is pitiful if you do not have another source of further AoE -dmg. This other source however, often coming from pets, is subject to purple patch and rarely capable of keeping up pets. I am looking forward to trying this with (hilariously) mercs and demons, which should have the best compatibility with TA. 

[WindDemon21]

How about instead of resist, it takes the -regen from the enemies and gives it to you like how fulcrum shift works.

[4th.survivor]

1 hour ago, Replacement said:

1) it's lowering your enemy's resistance to stuff.  For example, if your acid can eat through the outer coating on Iron Man's armor, it may make him more vulnerable to EMP effects.

 

2) Part of TA's problem is having all your power spread all over the place.  Why would I shoot two weak -Res arrows when I can shoot a single strong one?  Isn't it more on-theme to have a purpose for every arrow, instead of fumbling around for two separate arrows in your quiver to lower resistance?

 

Finally, there's a budget for ST and AoE debuffs at play.  With Disruption Arrow already eating Acid's budget for AOE -Resist, simply adding it back to Acid for more of the same is completely missing the point.

 

So instead, we have DA for strong, simple -res to a whole group.  And you have Entangling arrow to stack some more on single, hardened targets.

1) Yes, but I don't want to fire acid at a guy to lower his debuff resistance. This is like an inverse power boost that only applies to the targets being hit.  If this is the cool effect the set needs or wants, then fine, put it on acid arrow, but don't change how acid arrow works relative to similar powers.

2) Yes, that is a problem.  Introducing new effects to powers where it makes no sense does not make this problem go away, as now we are obliged to pick up entangling where we might have skipped it before.

I understand there's a budget.  I'm not suggesting the budget be broken, but I am suggesting the powers do what they ought to.  I would prefer that acid arrow keeps its -res in addition to this new effect, and that disrupting arrow keeps its existing (or slightly higher) -res in addition to its new effect, and that entangling arrow remain a -rech immobilize, and that the values of these debuffs merely be adjusted to stay on budget in a way that lets the whole set perform more towards the goal.  An alternative compromise that still accomplishes your desire to have a mass -res in one power and a single target -res for hard targets would be to move the aoe -res into disruption as has been done, and have Acid Arrow apply its -res only to the initial target and not the AoE, while keeping the -debuff res for the AoE portion.

[macskull]

Ice Arrow's -special is way too good. It's got roughly the same value as Benumb and Weaken but lasts for 60s instead of 30s and has an 18s recharge (Benumb is 120s, Weaken is 16s).  The -special should not be lasting more than 30s and should probably be about 1/5 of the current value. It also seems to be using a different modifier table than the other -special powers.

[ABlueThingy]

8 minutes ago, macskull said:

Ice Arrow's -special is way too good. It's got roughly the same value as Benumb and Weaken but lasts for 60s instead of 30s and has an 18s recharge (Benumb is 120s, Weaken is 16s).  The -special should not be lasting more than 30s and should probably be about 1/5 of the current value. It also seems to be using a different modifier table than the other -special powers.

I'm not in game but how strong is Ice Arrow's -special vs Benumb/Weaken?

[macskull]

7 minutes ago, ABlueThingy said:

I'm not in game but how strong is Ice Arrow's -special vs Benumb/Weaken?

Benumb/Weaken vs Ice Arrow

Defender: 74.50%/86.50%

Corruptor: 55.87%/69.20%

Controller: 93.13%/69.20%

Mastermind: 74.50%/51.90%

 

I'd honestly argue that even Weaken's -special value is too high for its cooldown especially because it's an AoE.

Edited October 25, 2020 by macskull