Focused Feedback: Other Powers Changes

[Riverdusk]

27 minutes ago, Crowe said:

- Touch of Fear - I like the idea but when combined with DA's Cloak of Fear, this is going to be stupidly overpowered. There is no need to change it or to add damage to it.  It's not broken and doesn't need to be fixed.

 

Oh, and maybe you missed "

• Only the main target will be affected by the Fear and ToHit debuff

[Vanden]

Just now, ScarySai said:

Or, stay with me here.

 

It's an aoe, centered around your target.

 

Range/melee has nothing to do with it, you're both reaching for this one.

Range/melee has everything to do with it, the sets are designed around whether they'll be put in ranged or melee attacks.

[Riverdusk]

3 minutes ago, ScarySai said:

Or, stay with me here.

 

It's an aoe, centered around your target.

 

Range/melee has nothing to do with it, you're both reaching for this one.

 

A taget which is at MELEE range.  And it still isn't affected by range enhancements, which makes slotting TAoE sets in (many of which have "range" as part of the enhancement) waste a lot of their affect.

Edited October 24, 2020 by Riverdusk

[ScarySai]

No, it really doesn't have anything to do with it. It's a melee attack that uses melee modifiers, and is classified as an AoE that is centered around your target.

 

If you want it to benefit from +range, I can't say I'd be opposed to that, but to imply it's wrong based on your opinion of how things should be is just out of line.

 

Quote

A taget which is at MELEE range.  And it still isn't affected by range enhancements, which makes slotting TAoE sets in (many of which have "range" as part of the enhancement) waste a lot of their affect.

Again, melee/range is wholly irrelevant. You still get the set bonus, and the only thing you're missing out on is range, which is often low budgeted in these sets to begin with.

 

I'm not opposed to letting it benefit from +range, but you vastly overstate whatever 'problem' might exist here.

Edited October 24, 2020 by ScarySai

[Vanden]

1 minute ago, ScarySai said:

It's a melee attack that uses melee modifiers

So why shouldn't it use the melee-centric IO set?

[ScarySai]

Same reason fireball doesn't use ranged sets, I imagine.

[Riverdusk]

Think we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one, think we both made our points.   😄

[Doomrider]

3 minutes ago, Vanden said:

So why shouldn't it use the melee-centric IO set?

Welp. I guess we'd have to change Spinning Strike then too since it that takes targeted aoe sets... probably have to change Frost as well... it's a cone in a melee set and it takes... you guessed it... targeted aoe sets. 
I'd sooner just lump ToF into the outlier category along with these two and leave it be, but that's just me.

[Vanden]

Just now, Doomrider said:

Welp. I guess we'd have to change Spinning Strike then too since it that takes targeted aoe sets... probably have to change Frost as well... it's a cone in a melee set and it takes... you guessed it... targeted aoe sets. 
I'd sooner just lump ToF into the outlier category along with these two and leave it be, but that's just me.

I'd certainly appreciate the change for consistency.

[Riverdusk]

2 minutes ago, Doomrider said:

Welp. I guess we'd have to change Spinning Strike then too since it that takes targeted aoe sets... probably have to change Frost as well... it's a cone in a melee set and it takes... you guessed it... targeted aoe sets. 
I'd sooner just lump ToF into the outlier category along with these two and leave it be, but that's just me.

Frost has a 10 foot range and benefits from range enhancements.  (which then turns it into an amazing power by the way).

Edited October 24, 2020 by Riverdusk

[Doomrider]

Just now, Riverdusk said:

Frost has a 10 foot range and benefits from range enhancements.  

I am aware. 

[Riverdusk]

Just now, Doomrider said:

I am aware. 

Just pointing out that makes it completely different imho, and that one makes sense to be TAoE as it benefits from the range that TAoE sets offer.

[Gobbledigook]

34 minutes ago, Riverdusk said:

Which would leave out stalkers, where it is already a much less popular (and arguably weaker) set.

I would replace Siphon life or Touch of fear on Stalkers and replace it with the AoE. Do they really need Siphon life as another not very good single target attack with a small heal or even remove Shadow maul.

Edited October 24, 2020 by Gobbledegook

[ScarySai]

Frost is closer to fire breath than spinning strike, really. They operate a bit differently than most melee cone abilities do, which is not a bad thing. Changing that would be arbitrary at best.

 

Spinning strike and ToF are a relatively new breed of melee attack, you can cite TS, which is fair in a way - though I bet if it weren't for some level of respecting older builds, that would sooner be changed to fall in line than the other way around.

 

3 minutes ago, Riverdusk said:

Just pointing out that makes it completely different imho, and that one makes sense to be TAoE as it benefits from the range that TAoE sets offer.

 

No.

[Vanden]

1 minute ago, Gobbledegook said:

I would replace Siphon life or Touch of fear on Stalkers and replace it with the AoE. Do they really need Siphon life as another not very good single target attack with a small heal?

Siphon Life does scale 1.96 damage, the same as any other 10s recharge attack using the Standard Damage Formula. It's a staple attack for the set.

[Riverdusk]

Just now, Gobbledegook said:

I would replace Siphon life or Touch of fear on Stalkers and replace it with the AoE. Do they really need Siphon life as another not very good single target attack with a small heal?

Yes, it works great on my dm/sr and has saved me many times.  And not a very good single target attack?  It has a base 60 dpa, that isn't bad at all.  I love siphon life.

[Vanden]

1 minute ago, ScarySai said:

Changing that would be arbitrary at best.

Arbitrary: based on random choice or personal whim, rather than any reason or system.

 

Since we'd be changing them based on whether or not they can slot Range enhancement, it would be, by definition, not arbitrary.

[Riverdusk]

2 minutes ago, ScarySai said:

Frost is closer to fire breath than spinning strike, really. They operate a bit differently than most melee cone abilities do, which is not a bad thing. Changing that would be arbitrary at best.

 

Spinning strike and ToF are a relatively new breed of melee attack, you can cite TS, which is fair in a way - though I bet if it weren't for some level of respecting older builds, that would sooner be changed to fall in line than the other way around.

 

 

No.

That it can actually use the range enhancements as part of its slotting literally makes it different.  I can do the same.  

 

No.

[Doomrider]

Just now, Riverdusk said:

Just pointing out that makes it completely different imho, and that one makes sense to be TAoE as it benefits from the range that TAoE sets offer.

For sure, but look at Innocuous Strikes for instance. It has a 9' radius w/ a 90 degree arc; should we change that power to accept targeted aoe sets instead of melee ones and allow it's ranged to be enhanceable as well? Or should we just leave both powers be? I'm more for the latter. Having outliers is not necessarily a bad thing. I think changing the sets a power can take arbitrarily for the sake of consistency isn't necessarily a warranted change. 

[Moonlighter]

So I am trying to test a bug fix: Hail of Bullets (Blaster): Fixed an issue where the blaster version of this power would not trigger the base lethal damage in PvE.

 

I am not seeing a significant change between live and beta. The numbers seem similar, keeping in mind that between Defiance and my Martial random buff it can be hard to judge. On live I see a bunch of numbers like 6 12 and I see the same ratios on test.

 

I tried it with secondary effect (Fire/Acid/Ice) turned off, then on.

 

Can anyone figure out what difference we should be looking for here?

[3:49 PM]

[TraumaTrain]

I don't see any Regen nerfs, @Jimmy. Will that be for Page 2?

[Gobbledigook]

4 minutes ago, Riverdusk said:

Yes, it works great on my dm/sr and has saved me many times.  And not a very good single target attack?  It has a base 60 dpa, that isn't bad at all.  I love siphon life.

Personally i would dump ToF and keep Siphon life for stalkers also. But it isn't the best Dpa attack, though it isn't bad as you say. 

[Vanden]

1 minute ago, TraumaTrain said:

I don't see any Regen nerfs, @Jimmy. Will that be for Page 2?

Exploits don't make the beta patch notes, and Regen preventing you from dying in a fight is an exploit

[carroto]

Looked at the new Touch of Fear in the character creation screen.  It's a clone of Street Justice/Spinning Strike, which from what I've seen isn't a greatly well-thought-of power to start with.  However ToF has half the recharge, half the damage, but a slightly longer animation, which means it's pretty bad from a DPSA perspective.  My hope when initially reading about the change was that it would finally bring DM into the realm of playable sets for me.  I don't think it will.  I guess I'll try it out on the beta server, but I've been playing this game long enough that I think I have a good idea how that will feel in actual play.  Too little damage to justify the time spent applying it.  We'll see.

[Riverdusk]

2 minutes ago, Doomrider said:

For sure, but look at Innocuous Strikes for instance. It has a 9' radius w/ a 90 degree arc; should we change that power to accept targeted aoe sets instead of melee ones and allow it's ranged to be enhanceable as well? Or should we just leave both powers be? I'm more for the latter. Having outliers is not necessarily a bad thing. I think changing the sets a power can take arbitrarily for the sake of consistency isn't necessarily a warranted change. 

To me (and I think to Vanden) it is simple and very objective.  If it benefits from range enhancements it should be TAoE.  If it doesn't it should be PBAoE.

 

By the way I argued the same back when the stalker version of Frost didn't take range enhancements (before it was fixed).  I literally posted that if it didn't take range, it should be changed to take PBAoE and not TAoE.  Otherwise they needed to fix it to be affected by range enhancement.  They fixed it and now it makes sense to be TAoE.