Focused Feedback: Enhancements

[arthurh35353]

2 hours ago, csr said:

You won't be able to.

 

I bought SOs as needed and upgrade them at 7, 14 and 21.  At 7 I'd spent around 150k after the upgrade.  At 14 it was 600k.  At 21 about 1.3M.

 

I did earn 41 Merits in the process of leveling however.  So funding wasn't a problem (I just gave myself 200k per Merit to simulate selling Special Salvage on the AH).  I did have 2XP on though.  I'll have to try a character without that, but I really don't think you earn that kind of INF at low levels.  Through L4 on a starter Scrapper with normal XP I'd earned 9k.  Enough to buy 2 SOs to go with one that I got from the Science starter contact.  Of course, at that point I only needed 3 SOs (I used 3 Prestige enhancements) outside of Fitness.  Still, you are either going to have to turn XP off for long stretches or earn INF outside what just comes naturally.

You absolutely don't earn enough inf. I couldn't even afford more than 2 DOs at level 2. So unless you get lucky on the RNG on your first bit of salvage, you are basically SoL on actually being able to buy your enhancements with this upgrade. Or waste precious merits on INF instead.

 

Good job making sure you don't have those later to buy your IO sets you want. 😕

[Lines]

1 hour ago, arthurh35353 said:

You absolutely don't earn enough inf. I couldn't even afford more than 2 DOs at level 2. So unless you get lucky on the RNG on your first bit of salvage, you are basically SoL on actually being able to buy your enhancements with this upgrade. Or waste precious merits on INF instead.

 

Good job making sure you don't have those later to buy your IO sets you want. 😕

 

I'm not sure what you mean. Nothing has been removed, the update only makes lower level SOs more accessible.

 

To my knowledge, nothing has changed in terms of pricing.

 

If they're unaffordable, TOs and DOs are still available for the short term, just as before.

[arthurh35353]

I thought the patchnotes mentioned that Training Enhancements were removed?

[Lines]

Just now, arthurh35353 said:

I thought the patchnotes mentioned that Training Enhancements were removed?

They're gone from world vendors but can still be purchased in SG bases.

 

I don't remember the last time I slotted a TO, though. Certainly wasn't in the last decade.

[Hew]

Variety of content type nets you inf to manage SO upgrades. It only takes a tf here and there (convert merits to cash by your way of choice), or a quick use of a Big Bad farm for maybe 800 tickets, or, well, millions (pun) of ways.

 

I have taken a zero inf/level 1 char, and ended up with ~20 mil inf after an hour of marketing, 10 minutes of AE for tickets, by level 10. I picked up a few merits (giant monster? something else?), and used those creatively to maximize the output of my tickets. So yeah. You can absolutely maintain SO upgrades by mixing the content type you run and judiciously using what you get.

 

Is that the best choice? I am not sure. However! It beats the hell out of crafting a bunch of generics, or blowing money on generics, or whatever. You just push a button and keep going.

[kenlon]

I would like to give feedback on this, but I'm too busy going WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

 

Thank god for early game SOs!

[csr]

On 10/25/2020 at 6:24 AM, arthurh35353 said:

You absolutely don't earn enough inf. I couldn't even afford more than 2 DOs at level 2. So unless you get lucky on the RNG on your first bit of salvage, you are basically SoL on actually being able to buy your enhancements with this upgrade. Or waste precious merits on INF instead.

 

Good job making sure you don't have those later to buy your IO sets you want. 😕

Turning Merits into INF through Special Salvage is one of the most efficient uses of them.  Almost all IOs costs less using INF than the RM equivalent.  Heck, buying cheap IOs and Converters with INF and playing the upgrade game is probably the most efficient way to get INF.  Even if you use your RM on something a little pricey like Luck of the Gamblers then you're only getting about 100-120k/RM.  A Steadfast Res/Def will net you only about 200k/RM; about the same as Boosters or Unslotters.  Even Purple IOs only yields about a 200k/RM return.  Very few things are cheaper with RM than INF.

 

Also, I estimate it will cost about 2-3M extra INF to slot and keep SOs up-to-date through level 27 (I upgraded at 7, 14, 21 so the SOs will go red at 28 and be replaced with IOs).  That costs about the same as one decent IO such as a second tier Defense set IO.  It's the equivalent of about 10-15 RM.  Wincott+Flux will get you that.  2-3 sets of Explores will as well.

 

The cost issue is really only a problem for a complete newb or someone who refuses to use the AH.  That's why I suggested the RM-to-INF Conversion option.  It helps the latter, while not really hurting the former.  The newb trap of spending RM at half what they're worth (100k vs the basic market value of about 200k right now) is something I deem less of a concern than the existing newb traps of spending those RM on SOs or on recipes for cheap set IOs. 

Edited October 26, 2020 by csr
Typos

[Rikis]

On 10/24/2020 at 7:46 AM, Jimmy said:

Yin's Market

• There are currently no plans to make those enhancements available to Villains or Praetorians, as the store unlock is a reward for the Faultline arcs

[arthurh35353]

2 hours ago, csr said:

The cost issue is really only a problem for a complete newb or someone who refuses to use the AH.  That's why I suggested the RM-to-INF Conversion option.  It helps the latter, while not really hurting the former.  The newb trap of spending RM at half what they're worth (100k vs the basic market value of about 200k right now) is something I deem less of a concern than the existing newb traps of spending those RM on SOs or on recipes for cheap set IOs. 

This kind of points out that the cost for Merits for things isn't matching what their values should be then. They should be (roughly and broadly) sort of on the same parity. Unless you research the market and know those values are off, a player would expect that spending their merits on IOs would be the correct option.

[csr]

6 hours ago, arthurh35353 said:

This kind of points out that the cost for Merits for things isn't matching what their values should be then. They should be (roughly and broadly) sort of on the same parity. Unless you research the market and know those values are off, a player would expect that spending their merits on IOs would be the correct option.

I agree that would be the natural assumption.  But making the Merit Vendor costs match the variable market values isn't all that practical.  The market values are half what they were several months ago when there were more active players.  At that point the prices weren't seriously out of whack.

[DSorrow]

Aww yiss!

 

Everything about this patch looks great, but I have to say this is one of my favorite things. No more "forced" DFB for the buffs and thanks to the low level SOs and upgrade options, I think I'm going to enjoy the 1-22 range more than I've ever enjoyed it!

[arthurh35353]

8 hours ago, csr said:

I agree that would be the natural assumption.  But making the Merit Vendor costs match the variable market values isn't all that practical.  The market values are half what they were several months ago when there were more active players.  At that point the prices weren't seriously out of whack.

I want to double check, but I didn't see an option to redeem merits life for influence, I only saw the ability to pay 1mil for 1 merit (or something like that).

[Coyotedancer]

5 minutes ago, arthurh35353 said:

I want to double check, but I didn't see an option to redeem merits life for influence, I only saw the ability to pay 1mil for 1 merit (or something like that).

You have to use the auction house.

 

You convert the merits into other things... converters, catalysts, boosters or what-have-you... and then sell those to other players via Wents or the black market.

[Replacement]

I really love this change, but I do mind the Influence cost.  I would like to see the price scaling change, so it starts out more or less the same but increases in cost slower.

 

It's not that I can't make the money; it's that every dollar spent on an SO that will decay isn't being spent on an evergreen IO. 

 

Feels like paying rent instead of mortgage.

[arthurh35353]

1 hour ago, Coyotedancer said:

You have to use the auction house.

 

You convert the merits into other things... converters, catalysts, boosters or what-have-you... and then sell those to other players via Wents or the black market.

So, in other words you have to really know the Auction House items and hope that you are buying things that people will purchase for a net positive income.

-_-

[Mack008]

Not a fan of these changes.

 

I like that SO's aren't typically available until level 25.  It adds an important element and gives the player something to strive toward.   Getting them earlier nullifies that since of accomplishment.  Yes, there are ways to get them sooner, but only with effort, which is why it's rewarding.  Plus, a proliferation of low level SO's will make low level content much less challenging.  

 

I also like the limits that come with upgrading a level 30 to a level 30+ and not a level 31.  It adds a dynamic where you actually have to think about managing your enhancements.

 

Not crazy about the "upgrade all enhancements" button.  I could live with it, but IMO it's too easy.  Again, enhancement management, and enhancement strategy are part of the game, part of the challenge.

 

It seems like there's too much emphasis on skipping to level 50, and bypassing the journey to level 50. 

Edited October 26, 2020 by Mack008

[thunderforce]

On 10/25/2020 at 12:10 AM, Crowe said:

Seems like a waste of development effort, to be honest. I don't know anyone who used store-bought enhancements for stuff other than their first character or for a couple of key powers for a rush-Posi.  Don't get me wrong -- it's a cool idea and all.  But anyone who regularly plays is going to tell people not to use TO/DO/SOs anyway.

I routinely buy and slot TOs and DOs in slots where there isn't a useful IO option at my current level. Why not? They're cheap as chips and it makes life a little nicer on the way to 20.

(I don't DFB/AE/otherwise rush to 20, though).

[kenlon]

On 10/24/2020 at 4:10 PM, Crowe said:

Seems like a waste of development effort, to be honest. I don't know anyone who used store-bought enhancements for stuff other than their first character or for a couple of key powers for a rush-Posi.  Don't get me wrong -- it's a cool idea and all.  But anyone who regularly plays is going to tell people not to use TO/DO/SOs anyway.

Prior to hitting the level where IOs are useful (22), access to SOs make playing normal content *fun* instead of a tedious slog. The fact that almost everyone spams DFB to skip past the low levels and get to where SOs/SO-bonus level common IOs are available is a clear sign that there's a balance problem when it comes to low level play.

 

Given the small number of slots you have at that level, TOs/DOs don't provide enough enhancement to be more than barely noticeable, while SOs do. (I played a bunch on the Page 6 beta where these changes were first put in - it actually made playing Goldside tolerable, something I'd bounced off of every time since way back when it was added on live.)  This is a very, very good change, and I look forward to putting together actual low level teams (Hollows street sweeping!) once this goes live.

[Replacement]

Yeah just for the record: when everyone is routinely skipping content, and there's so little endgame that alting is the endgame... you've set up an unsustainable loop.

 

I love these changes because they help make often-skipped portions of the game fun again.

 

Thank you so much, all involved.

[kenlon]

Hell, I may even exemplar down some of my 50s to do street sweeping with low levels, because, dammit, that shit was *fun* back in the day.

[csr]

4 hours ago, arthurh35353 said:

I want to double check, but I didn't see an option to redeem merits life for influence, I only saw the ability to pay 1mil for 1 merit (or something like that).

There is no such option.  I suggested that they add it.

[csr]

3 hours ago, arthurh35353 said:

So, in other words you have to really know the Auction House items and hope that you are buying things that people will purchase for a net positive income.

-_-

I pretty much just convert RM to Boosters and/or Unslotters (Special Salvage) and sell them at what I think of as the "overnight price" (meaning they might not sell immediately, but will probably be sold when I log in the next day).

 

3 hours ago, Replacement said:

I really love this change, but I do mind the Influence cost.  I would like to see the price scaling change, so it starts out more or less the same but increases in cost slower.

 

It's not that I can't make the money; it's that every dollar spent on an SO that will decay isn't being spent on an evergreen IO. 

 

Feels like paying rent instead of mortgage.

I'll pay the 2-3M "rent" to wait and get the mortgage on the house I really want.  That is, use SO to tide me over to 27 when I'll start slotting sets instead of slotting Common IOs at 22 as I do now.

Edited October 26, 2020 by csr

[kenlon]

1 hour ago, Mack008 said:

I like that SO's aren't typically available until level 25.  It adds an important element and gives the player something to strive toward.   Getting them earlier nullifies that since of accomplishment.  Yes, there are ways to get them sooner, but only with effort, which is why it's rewarding.  Plus, a proliferation of low level SO's will make low level content much less challenging.  

 

It makes people strive towards getting in DFB groups and skipping low levels entirely. Sure, not having SOs makes the low levels 'challenging', but that just means no one plays those levels in normal content.

 

1 hour ago, Mack008 said:

It seems like there's too much emphasis on skipping to level 50, and bypassing the journey to level 50. 

 

. . .if you think that there's too much skipping of content, then why wouldn't you be in favor of a change that makes it more likely for players to actually do 1-22 missions rather than spamming DFB? Having access to enhancements that actually, y'know, enhance (as opposed to looking pretty) makes low level play much more fun.  

 

Seriously, try this: Make a character on live. Play through the Praetorian missions from, say, 1-20. Then remake the character on the beta, and do the same there. The beta version, with SO enhancements, will still be tough (simply because you have so few powers and slots to enhance them with), but it won't feel like you're slamming your head against a brick wall anymore. Especially with a squishy AT. This is a very, very good change.

 

[Replacement]

4 minutes ago, kenlon said:

Seriously, try this: Make a character on live. Play through the Praetorian missions from, say, 1-20. Then remake the character on the beta, and do the same there. The beta version, with SO enhancements, will still be tough (simply because you have so few powers and slots to enhance them with), but it won't feel like you're slamming your head against a brick wall anymore. Especially with a squishy AT. This is a very, very good change.

Make sure the character is Street Justice.  They love missing everything in Praetoria and losing their combo count without (functioning) enhancements.

[kenlon]

When I did this (though, admittedly, I didn't do it on live, because I already *knew* how painful it was), I used a Rad/Rad Corruptor. Being able to actually hit things, having damage that wasn't utterly anemic and not running out of endurance all the time was amazing.