Something to play towards or un-necessary forced time sink

[jubakumbi]

45 minutes ago, Lockpick said:

Do you think the accolade powers that are gated today should be unlocked for everyone at level 1? Or do you think they should be earned as is today?

I think the accolades are fine as-is, those don't really have the impact at character creation something like not have a cape does, IMO.

I would not have an issue with being able to purchase them, but I don't see the point, i would not do it, IMO the bonuses are not worth running the content or spending resources.

Besides, IMO, the bonues are so small when you look at IOs, etc., that I never bother to use any of them and I have god-characters from IOs.

 

Anything that can be used in a character concept, IMO, should not be gated at this point.

IMO, the gate people have been trained on as a playstyle is a retail trick to get people to play/pay more.

 

Badges and the like are more like true 'badges of honor' from having 'done things', regardless of the reason, be it e-peen, a small bouns, or just personal satisfaction.

 

At this point, I see no positive impact from adding gated things...badges are, IMO, just a things that happens from doing stuff.

All of the industry has awakened to the fact the best move is to make the current content more accessible.

[Omega-202]

@Lockpick

 

You're practically stomping your feet and saying everyone needs to play by your logic with that analogy.  I'm not attacking you, I'm just saying what I'm seeing here.

 

As you said, what I do doesn't affect you, so why do you care?  This isn't the army, this is a videogame where we dress up digital action figures to punch bad guys.  God forbid we would like to use our imaginations a little.  

 

If you see that as an attack on you personally, then whatever.  

Edited November 20, 2020 by Omega-202

[jubakumbi]

14 minutes ago, Lockpick said:

I understand your opinion.  My opinion is different.  I'm not attacking you for your opinion and it would be refreshing if you could restrain yourself from attacking others for their opinions.

But they said 'seems selfish', and it does.

That is not calling a person selfish, that is saying the idea seems selfish from thier POV.

Very different.

 

I would like it if so many people would not assume an attack on the idea is an attack on them.

 

As for the Army Ranger comparison - thanks for your service - but I don't need that kind of rigid structure in my videos games, thanks.

It's a video game, not a life simulator.

If you want to play to the lore, you can, making other people do it does sound selfish at this point int eh games lifecycle, even if you, yourself, don't see it that way or consider your outlook to be selfish.

This is the rub.

If you use your own self-discipline from that Army Ranger training, you can create the dopamine pay-off you desire, w/o the game forcing it.

 

We have people that claim they want something, but seem unwilling to go and do it, when the tools exist, and try to tell everyone else they have to chage course.

That, IMO, is denying reality.

Edited November 20, 2020 by jubakumbi
speeling

[Luminara]

4 minutes ago, Lockpick said:

However, from a lore perspective, I believe that someone cannot become a member of Vanguard until that character gets the Member of Vanguard badge.  It seems reasonable that if someone wanted to be a member of Vanguard they would have to earn a spot and then the parts would be unlocked.  It seems reasonable to me that Vanguard wouldn't just let any level 1 character in.

 

Maybe they were mind-wiped and kicked out.  Maybe the armor was stolen, or found on the battlefield.  Maybe they're from an alternate reality where Vanguard takes level 1 recruits.

Lots of wiggle room when it comes to explaining why a level 1 character has any costume parts.  "Lore" doesn't restrict any costume parts in a world with portals to alternate realities, aliens, advanced science and technology, time travel, and only three small parts of that world even represented (Paragon City, Rogue Isles and Praetoria).

[Xeres]

I think one point that's being overlooked is the precedent set.  Capes, auras and other things that I forgot are available to everyone from character creation.  I'm not completely positive but I don't think there's any costume piece gated in terms of in game achievements (vs purchasing them from -vendor-) right now.  So, why start gating new aesthetic pieces now?

 

However, accolades and character buffs are gated in some manner, IIRC.  I don't see any reason to alter either course here.

Edited November 20, 2020 by Xeres

[Lockpick]

4 minutes ago, Omega-202 said:

@Lockpick

 

You're practically stomping your feet and saying everyone needs to play by your logic with that analogy.  I'm not attacking you, I'm just saying what I'm seeing here.

 

As you said, what I do doesn't affect you, so why do you care?  This isn't the army, this is a videogame where we dress up digital action figures to punch bad guys.  God forbid we would like to use out imaginations a little.  

 

If you see that as an attack on you personally, then whatever.  

When you call someone selfish that is an attack. 

 

When you say that expressing an opinion is "stomping your feet and saying everyone needs to play by your logic" that is an attack.

 

Do you not even understand basic courtesy?

 

I could use your same exact logic to say you are being selfish and you are stomping your feet to get everyone to play the way you want.  I just believe you are expressing your opinion and I respect your opinion.  I'm not sure why you cannot provide that same courtesy.

 

3 minutes ago, Luminara said:

Maybe they were mind-wiped and kicked out.  Maybe the armor was stolen, or found on the battlefield.  Maybe they're from an alternate reality where Vanguard takes level 1 recruits.

Lots of wiggle room when it comes to explaining why a level 1 character has any costume parts.  "Lore" doesn't restrict any costume parts in a world with portals to alternate realities, aliens, advanced science and technology, time travel, and only three small parts of that world even represented (Paragon City, Rogue Isles and Praetoria).

 

All very good points and I understand your reasoning.

 

[DSorrow]

53 minutes ago, Lockpick said:

You were able to form a Synapse in 20 minutes.  Great!  Do you think it would be easier or harder to form that Synapse if the TFC accolade was not gated behind it?

Probably not, but I think gating valuable content (costumes, accolades, etc) behind intrinsically bad content is a backwards approach to fixing bad content. With TFC, most people do Synapse at most once per character, while Posi and Yin probably get several playthroughs even by people who skip TFC by getting the equivalent accolade redside. Obviously it's much more resource intensive to revamp whole TFs, but I think in the long term that's a better use of resources.

 

As far as gating goes, I don't mind if functionally "useless" items like badges or contacts are gated. For contacts, it often even makes story sense, but none of that affects how your character plays or how it can be represented costumes which are the two most important about this game. When you start gating the important things behind content, you create a grind because you force people to play through content they don't necessarily enjoy, which contributes to burn-out. And, because what's enjoyable content is quite subjective, I'd be extremely wary of gating core gameplay elements or power-ups behind any specific content.

[Omega-202]

24 minutes ago, Lockpick said:

When you call someone selfish that is an attack. 

 

When you say that expressing an opinion is "stomping your feet and saying everyone needs to play by your logic" that is an attack.

 

Do you not even understand basic courtesy?

 

I could use your same exact logic to say you are being selfish and you are stomping your feet to get everyone to play the way you want.  I just believe you are expressing your opinion and I respect your opinion.  I'm not sure why you cannot provide that same courtesy.

I am being selfish.  Selfish is not necessarily an insult.  I don't know where you got this idea of "courtesy" from, but not every conversation needs to be conducted like everyone's ego is as fragile as a sickly chicken egg.  Basic courtesy is about respect.  I don't think you're a bad person, I think your ideas are bad and selfish.  Which they are.  

 

But on the flip side, I am also not advocating for a change to anything or demanding anything of anyone else.  You and others in this thread are.  And as has been stated, a more open, gateless system allows for people to self gate if they choose, whereas a gated system restricts the choices of people. 

 

I am not demanding you play my way, but you are demanding that I play your way.  That is the difference.  

Edited November 20, 2020 by Omega-202

[Vulpoid]

On 11/11/2020 at 12:38 PM, jubakumbi said:

We are at the mercy of a handful of players that control the HC servers for any changes or additions to the game

You know you can run your own server with your own rules and stories if you want, right?
The HC staff are unpaid volunteers.  Please do not disparage them. 
I am very thankful that I can play at all!

[Lockpick]

2 minutes ago, Omega-202 said:

I am being selfish.  Selfish is not necessarily an insult.  I don't know where you got this idea of "courtesy" from, but not every conversation needs to be conducted like everyone's ego is as fragile as a sickly chicken egg.  Basic courtesy is about respect.  I don't think you're a bad person, I think your ideas are bad and selfish.  Which they are.  

 

But on the flip side, I am also not advocating for a change to anything or demanding anything of anyone else.  You and others in this thread are.  And as has been stated, a more open, gateless system allows for people to self gate if they choose, whereas a gated system restricts the choices of people. 

 

I am not demanding you play my way, but you are demanding that I play your way.  That is rhe difference.  

 

I'm not demanding anyone play my way.  I have suggested adding new rewards that need to be earned in game.  In case it was not clear, the Vanguard parts and the Epaulets were examples.  I wouldn't change any existing costume parts.  I am merely offering an opinion that maybe some new rewards can be added to other areas of the existing game to incentivize doing the content. 

 

Anyway, I don't expect everyone to agree with me, so it should be expected to have differences of opinion. 

[jubakumbi]

11 minutes ago, Vulpoid said:

You know you can run your own server with your own rules and stories if you want, right?
The HC staff are unpaid volunteers.  Please do not disparage them. 
I am very thankful that I can play at all!

Yes, I have one on my machine.

Admitting we are at thier mercy disparages them how, exactly?

I am also thankful we can play the game, but HC iteself is not the reason we can play the game.

 

Saying that HC now pretty much controls the main playerbase of the game and that we at thier mercy is simply accepting reality.

 

So how is pointing that out insulting them?

[tidge]

4 hours ago, Solarverse said:

Simple answer, if I felt like it were a chore, I wouldn't be playing at all. There is where you logic concerning me and other players like me is flawed.

How would you feel if you were the only person playing behind a gate?

[Ukase]

On one hand, the idea of time sink really rubs me the wrong way. There's only so many hours in a day. 

But, in practice, let's consider the test server:

Instant 50. 

Everything's free. 

The only downside is the likely wipe of your characters - which you can rebuild in a few minutes if you've made a copy of the build in mids. 

And yet...5% of the player base will visit it? And those, most are to actually test the upcoming patch. A few to maybe check how a character may pan out at 50, but that's a very small number of people. 

Things are easy here on HC. (relatively) Some may frown upon marketing or farming, but both are easy - even if you find them tedious or dull. You can get all the IO goodness you want, if you are familiar with the ways to accumulate inf. Even if you're not - you keep playing, you'll get there. 

But what keeps us playing? Sure, it's fun (a truly subjective word) to smash level 9's in Perez Park when you're level 50. 
As much as we may like our characters, and this game - one thing is true - there's not much that is new. Yes, a couple of arcs have been added, and a couple more are to follow. (as well as the Market Crash TF)
So, in order to keep people playing there needs to be a reason to do so. As "fun" as a given tf is, there's going to be a limit to how many times someone will think that tf is fun. Most folks may enjoy the content, but they do it for merits. And they want those merits for various reasons. Some want to make more inf for their alts. Some want converters. Uses will vary. 

If everything is handed to us, then what's the motivation to sit in ouroboros doing nothing for 20 minutes until a league is formed? What's the motivation to have a character that's level 50+3, t-4'd? Sure it might be fun...but what do you actually do if you no longer require anything from the rewards offered? For some, the joy is in teaming and cracking jokes with in-game friends. For others, it's a sense of accomplishment. (or both)

But if you take away the obstacles to certain in game privileges, then there's nothing to move towards. You're stagnant. Most will get bored. And log off. And stay off. 

[Naraka]

4 hours ago, Omega-202 said:

Not everything is up for compromise.  

 

Here's an analogy: Right now, we have a nice park with a full baseball field on it.  You come along and say "Remeber when there was a duck pond in the park? I want to put a duck pond back in the park", but the only place to put said duck pond is on home plate.  Everyone says "no you'll ruin our baseball field" and you ask for a compromise where we put a little bit of a duck pond on first base instead...

 

There is no compromising this.  And yes it is nice to have things in a good place right now. 

Why the hell is home plate the only place to put a duck pond!? Or maybe you just think that's where someone is arguing to put it?

Edited November 20, 2020 by Naraka

[Vulpoid]

1 hour ago, jubakumbi said:

Saying that HC now pretty much controls the main playerbase of the game and that we at thier mercy is simply accepting reality.

I am not sure you understand.
You are a guest at a party. You don't get to pick the furniture.
If you go to a restaurant and don't like the food you are not " At their ( t-h-e-i-r) mercy"
You can leave.
Open your own restaurant.
Serve whatever you want. invite other people.
You are not at anyone's mercy. Nobody is handcuffing you to the walls.
If you went to a Night Club and told the DJ you were at their mercy because you don't like the music, they would look at you funny and be insulted... Unless ..you know... it was that kind of club.
Maybe you are being handcuffed to the walls... 

[Naraka]

2 hours ago, Omega-202 said:

I have made Vanguard characters that start as part of the Vanguard from level 1, who leveled up using as many Lost and Rikti arcs as possible.  Without the level 1 free costume pieces, that character wouldn't have existed.  

 

What benefit is there for YOU to have made MY character concept unworkable?  Seems selfish.  

Just to play devil's advocate (I don't agree with locking those pieces NOW, but if additional pieces were designed and put into the game and the designer had a desire to link it to some in-game content in some way, I wouldn't be opposed to locking THAT), I don't see why your Vanguard trainee couldn't have a training suit that has a different look and feel from the active Vanguard forces. In fact, you could create a bunch of characters who are trainees in a junior Vanguard who are aiming to join active forces over their career. It might require a bit more creativity and you might not be able to make your 5-star general leader of his own brigade of Vanguard at level 1 but hey, the latter seems pretty uncreative and reeks of being a Gary Stu.

 

While I can understand that the latter example is a viable character concept, I can also understand that it is not the only option thus, if the example costume parts were locked, it doesn't make the concept unworkable, just requiring some forethought.

[Omega-202]

6 minutes ago, Naraka said:

Just to play devil's advocate (I don't agree with locking those pieces NOW, but if additional pieces were designed and put into the game and the designer had a desire to link it to some in-game content in some way, I wouldn't be opposed to locking THAT), I don't see why your Vanguard trainee couldn't have a training suit that has a different look and feel from the active Vanguard forces. In fact, you could create a bunch of characters who are trainees in a junior Vanguard who are aiming to join active forces over their career. It might require a bit more creativity and you might not be able to make your 5-star general leader of his own brigade of Vanguard at level 1 but hey, the latter seems pretty uncreative and reeks of being a Gary Stu.

 

While I can understand that the latter example is a viable character concept, I can also understand that it is not the only option thus, if the example costume parts were locked, it doesn't make the concept unworkable, just requiring some forethought.

Just to play devil's advocate, people who want goals and gating can self gate and leave everyone else to play how they want.  

 

It might take a bit more creativity and self discipline but wanting a game to give you direction and a sense of accomplishment, that seems pretty sad.  

 

Works both ways.  

[jubakumbi]

26 minutes ago, Vulpoid said:

I am not sure you understand.
You are a guest at a party. You don't get to pick the furniture.
If you go to a restaurant and don't like the food you are not " At their ( t-h-e-i-r) mercy"
You can leave.
Open your own restaurant.
Serve whatever you want. invite other people.
You are not at anyone's mercy. Nobody is handcuffing you to the walls.
If you went to a Night Club and told the DJ you were at their mercy because you don't like the music, they would look at you funny and be insulted... Unless ..you know... it was that kind of club.
Maybe you are being handcuffed to the walls... 

Really sorry to break it to you, but that is a very disingenuous outlook.

Sure, I can play the binaries on other hardware.

The playerbase, however, touted as the 'reason' to play the game by many, is primarily on HC, so we are at the mercy of thier choices, in terms of the game existing as a 'whole', over simply saying you can fire up the binaries and run them.

 

You seem to simply not like the _term_ I used, and choose to think it is negative - that's you assigning an emotion to the words, IMO.

 

I did not say I was trapped.

I said we are all at the mercy of the choices the HC team makes, it's just reality, just like Live - if you want to stay where the players have decided to hang out, then you are at the mercy of the people running those servers for the changes to the game.

 

Being at the mercy of a few people making the rules the masses will play with is not being trapped, unless you choose to look at it that way.

I don't.

It's no different than any other game, really.

 

You seem to be assuming I am using the language to somehow convey a negative 'feeling', wheras I simply think I used the most accurate word, IMO.

Edited November 20, 2020 by jubakumbi
speeling

[Naraka]

1 minute ago, Omega-202 said:

Just to play devil's advocate, people who want goals and gating can self gate and leave everyone else to play how they want.  

 

It might take a bit more creativity and self discipline but wanting a game to give you direction and a sense of accomplishment, that seems pretty sad.  

 

Works both ways.  

That's not devil's advocate. You'd find more people supporting your position than not.

 

The main reason I say it's a devil's advocate position is because it's mainly targeting the premise that "all concepts are good concepts" with the argument that your example is just a Gary Stu that ignores the lore of the game. Yeah, I know, not everyone cares about the in-game lore and freedom and blah blah blah but you don't actually admit you want to disregard that lore but instead mask it in a "I just want freedom". 

 

Like I said, it's fine and I don't think back pedaling that would be good but don't piss on someone's leg and say it's raining. If wanting to have aspects adhere to some form factor is selfish, so it's wanting everything free because you don't actually want to adhere to the form factor of the game.

[jubakumbi]

8 minutes ago, Naraka said:

That's not devil's advocate. You'd find more people supporting your position than not.

 

The main reason I say it's a devil's advocate position is because it's mainly targeting the premise that "all concepts are good concepts" with the argument that your example is just a Gary Stu that ignores the lore of the game. Yeah, I know, not everyone cares about the in-game lore and freedom and blah blah blah but you don't actually admit you want to disregard that lore but instead mask it in a "I just want freedom". 

 

Like I said, it's fine and I don't think back pedaling that would be good but don't piss on someone's leg and say it's raining. If wanting to have aspects adhere to some form factor is selfish, so it's wanting everything free because you don't actually want to adhere to the form factor of the game.

Back to the old 'wanting everything for free', huh?

Nothing to do with it.

There is no retail game.

It is not a Job.

The bits in the DB have been flipped so we can have all the costume parts up front.

 

Yet, some people still seem to think those bits in the DB having been flipped gives us 'free' stuff that we did not 'earn'.

I don't need the Protestant Work Ethic in my video game to enjoy it...it's really just that simple.

I understand there are those that DO want the PWE in thier games.

They have the tools to make thier own gates.

Edited November 20, 2020 by jubakumbi

[Naraka]

3 minutes ago, jubakumbi said:

Back to the old 'wanting everything for free', huh?

Nothing to do with it.

There is no retail game.

It is not a Job.

The bits in the DB have been flipped so we can have all the costume parts up front.

 

Yet, some people still seem to think those bits in teh DB having been flipped gives us 'free' stuff that we did not 'earn'.

I don't need the Protestant Work Ethic in my video game to enjoy it...it's really just that simple.

I understand there are those that DO want the PWE in thier games.

They have the tools to make thier own gates.

Then reassess my word usage as the intent of my post has nothing to do with monetary gain. But now you wasted your time rebutting a useless stance and my time explaining how the stance was useless.

 

If "everything free" is a problematic term, use basic english and context clues to understand the intent and exchange the term for "handed out baseline" or something.

Edited November 20, 2020 by Naraka

[Omega-202]

10 minutes ago, Naraka said:

The main reason I say it's a devil's advocate position is because it's mainly targeting the premise that "all concepts are good concepts" with the argument that your example is just a Gary Stu that ignores the lore of the game. Yeah, I know, not everyone cares about the in-game lore and freedom and blah blah blah but you don't actually admit you want to disregard that lore but instead mask it in a "I just want freedom". 

Labeling someone else's character concept as good or bad is inherently subjective and I am sure that you could share every one of yours and someone would find them objectionable for one reason or another.  

 

Last week, I played on a team with a blatant Darth Revan knockoff with a name and bio to match, a mostly naked TW Brute with a name that would have been generic'd on Live and someone roleplaying a pixie who wouldn't drop character in chat (on the nominal PvP server).  None of that bothered me and I would never begrudge any of those individuals having fun their way.  Live and let live.  

 

The fact that you take issue with a Vanguard member character from level 1 is weird, intrusive and makes it look like you're trying to impose your views on people who didn't ask for or care about them.  

[Naraka]

1 minute ago, Omega-202 said:

Labeling someone else's character concept as good or bad is inherently subjective and I am sure that you could share every one of yours and someone would find them objectionable for one reason or another.  

 

 

Exactly why I labeled it as a devil's advocate point. But just like my point is subjective, so is your example which is why the 2nd part of that post gives other options to rebutt the actual argument that the concept would be unworkable. You can work with it, it's just going to adhere to another authority and structure of lore.

 

4 minutes ago, Omega-202 said:

 

Last week, I played on a team with a blatant Darth Revan knockoff with a name and bio to match, a mostly naked TW Brute with a name that would have been generic'd on Live and someone roleplaying a pixie who wouldn't drop character in chat (on the nominal PvP server).  None of that bothered me and I would never begrudge any of those individuals having fun their way.  Live and let live.  

 

And none of those players are bringing their characters in as examples against our position so it's moot. But you did bring your Vanguard character in.

 

6 minutes ago, Omega-202 said:

 

The fact that you take issue with a Vanguard member character from level 1 is weird, intrusive and makes it look like you're trying to impose your views on people who didn't ask for or care about them.  

And I'll reiterate, I don't actually cares about your little Gary Stu Vanguard. I clarified that multiple times and if my post sounds confrontational, imagine someone responding to your posts while ignoring most of what you wrote.

[Darmian]

Circles, good people, circles.  Someone on the internet is wrong. How about this just gets wrapped up now or at the very least people stop feeding fires? Now, you can all jump on me for suggesting this but there's plainly no visible middle ground (yet) and quite possibly won't be.  I don't have a dog in this race, I personally don't care about gated stuff (not content!)  either way as long as neither is gated by RL cash.

 

So, there are people here on both sides (or more sides depending) that I like and interact with and that have such excellent ideas and thoughts on so many things, that appear to be descending into insults and whatnots.  Please don't. I'm going to pop off to other threads now.

 

Much Love, K.

Edited November 20, 2020 by Darmian

[Naraka]

3 minutes ago, Darmian said:

Circles, good people, circles.  Someone on the internet is wrong. How about this just gets wrapped up now or at the very least people stop feeding fires? Now, you can all jump on me for suggesting this but there's plainly no visible middle ground (yet) and quite possibly won't be.  I don't have a dog in this race, I personally don't care about gated stuff (not content!)  either way as long as neither is gated by RL cash.

 

So, there are people here on both sides (or more sides depending) that I like and interact with and that have such excellent ideas and thoughts on so many things, that appear to be descending into insults and whatnots.  Please don't. I'm going to pop off to other threads now.

 

Much Love, K.

I actually feel there's an Overton window effect going on since most arguing for the OP line up with your perspective, me included. It's a pretty moderate position that will kind of take a few new approaches in stride whether nothing changes or introducing a few things locked in an arc or with a badge.

 

I even feel those opposed probably would rage if a new helmet were linked to some content, they just have a preference it wasn't. 

 

The divide is against the vocal arguments directing accusations and ad hominems which are kind of the thorn here.