Something to play towards or un-necessary forced time sink

[jubakumbi]

51 minutes ago, Naraka said:

Then reassess my word usage as the intent of my post has nothing to do with monetary gain. But now you wasted your time rebutting a useless stance and my time explaining how the stance was useless.

 

If "everything free" is a problematic term, use basic english and context clues to understand the intent and exchange the term for "handed out baseline" or something.

No money has to be involved to want to invoke the PWE, I was not talking about strict monetary gain when I referenced PWE.

The entire premise of having to 'earn' things in a game that is dedicated to enjoying free time, is based on the PWE, IMO.

 

That is the idea behind having to 'earn' any of these things in teh game.

Since it is no longer a Retail game, that simply becomes more evident, IMO.

 

As for wasting time, it's mine to waste, but good on you for trying to get in a 'your time is useless jab'...

 

Your idea to 'use basic english and clues', IMO, shows just how you are still wanting to throw punches for some reason, another inuendo that I must be daft.

Too funny.

[Naraka]

48 minutes ago, jubakumbi said:

No money has to be involved to want to invoke the PWE, I was not talking about strict monetary gain when I referenced PWE.

The entire premise of having to 'earn' things in a game that is dedicated to enjoying free time, is based on the PWE, IMO.

 

That is the idea behind having to 'earn' any of these things in teh game.

Since it is no longer a Retail game, that simply becomes more evident, IMO.

 

As for wasting time, it's mine to waste, but good on you for trying to get in a 'your time is useless jab'...

 

Your idea to 'use basic english and clues', IMO, shows just how you are still wanting to throw punches for some reason, another inuendo that I must be daft.

Too funny.

The problem, IMO, is scope. You're making a mountain of of a molehill here.

 

And context clues is how you can discern meaning from something even if a piece of information is lost or mixed up. You pretty much went on a tangent about monetization despite that having nothing to do with the rest of the context. Dialing it back now still doesn't mean the objection has as much weight bringing aspects of retail vs non-retail since that is completely superfluous. Chess is free but we don't just skip rules. 

 

As for the other jabs you put in there, you have to be accurate if you want them to hit.

[EmmySky]

Okay.  Lets parse this out.

 

Some people want more gated content, including cosmetic pieces which have no bearing on gameplay.

 

Some people are opposed to more gated content, especially cosmetic pieces that have no bearing on gameplay.

 

Most people agree that more gated content in the form of branching story arcs and surprise fights would be a welcome addition.

 

Stop arguing about mental health and pocketbooks.  This video game isn't a solution for the one and, thankfully, doesn't negatively impact the other.

 

Have I missed anything pertinent to the discussion at hand?  Let's start from square one and stop following the tangents.  Actually, I am not sure that there is anything more that needs to be said.  The devs will do what the devs will do.

 

Happy hunting!

[Solarverse]

7 hours ago, DSorrow said:

Most of which amounts to "I think this would be fun" or "MMOs do it so it's great", and whenever pressed for specifics, you cop out with "I've already explained this", "this can't be explained", "you didn't digest what I said"

 I don't see why I even owe any of you an explanation as to why I find something fun. You are not the authority here, I don't owe you or anyone else anything. It's fun to me, that is all you need to know. I have done all the explaining that anyone should feel they need to do as to why I think it is fun. Other than that, just knowing that I think it is fun should be enough for you....the why is irrelevant.

Quote

 

Well, from my point of view you want changes that make the baseline game less fun

Hahaha, that is just so damn ironic! Before those things were taken away, that was what we were telling your side of the fence when your side of the fence was demanding that the game be made easier! The hypocrisy is real!

Edited November 20, 2020 by Solarverse
Edited for a new calm, previous edit was extremely harsh.

[Solarverse]

5 hours ago, Omega-202 said:

We have the middle ground as it is.  As you see, if I had my druthers, I'd push it further the other way.  But, I am not one to stomp my feet and demand that everyone play by my rules, like some people.  

Nope, you probably did that before things were changed to the way they are now. Now you are in your happy place and you don't want to give any fraction of that up. By the way, all the people who used to absolutely love this game the way it was, then left the game because people like you demanded it be made easier and less gated thanks you for stomping your feet and demanding that everyone play by your sides rules.

[Troo]

22 minutes ago, EmmySky said:

Some people want more gated content, including cosmetic pieces which have no bearing on gameplay.

 

Some people are opposed to more gated content, especially cosmetic pieces that have no bearing on gameplay.

 

Most people agree that more gated content in the form of branching story arcs and surprise fights would be a welcome addition.

So.. no new costume pieces? 

  King Solomon solution

[Solarverse]

5 hours ago, Luminara said:

 

That's an important distinction.  We don't all define "work" in the same way.  For some, just leveling up is "work".  For others, nothing is "work" until it's so grindy and repetitive that even the most dedicated player won't do it.

 

Most of us don't want to work a second job in a digital universe.  We put our XX hours in every week, we put up with the real life grind, we just want to kick back when we're playing.

 

Perhaps some people need a job, even in video games?  It's... what relaxes them, I suppose?  I don't know.  But gates represent a job that they can do, and they want that, it seems.

 

Maybe that's the middle ground.  Not Day Jobs, that's just a system designed to reward roleplay.  Job jobs.  Maybe something like appointments to positions.  Like... when a player reaches a milestone, having defeated a specific enemy, or acquired a certain collection of souvenirs or badges, the player is appointed as a Watcher or Commander or Investigator or something.  And with the appointment comes the responsibility of maintaining the position.  Maybe running X radio missions against a certain enemy group, or going to Ouroboros and running an arc to "protect the timeline".  As long as they continue to do their "job", they retain the position, and concurrently, the title and whatever benefits it might offer (maybe an alternative means of earning Day Job charges/time?).  Something players can opt into or out of at any time, to provide that job for the people who want it, without forcing a job on those who don't.

To be honest, I liked an idea somebody already mentioned in this thread. Playing a TF at higher levels rewards higher merits. Hell, that alone would make it worth it to me and honestly I would probably drop this whole thing if something like that were implemented. At least then it would be something to work for. As it stands now, everybody wants to run everything on easy mode and skip half the mobs just to reach that boss. Maybe if they added another system that granted more merits on maps cleared for *Defeat X and his guards* missions. That would be enough for me. Anything. It does not have to be costume pieces. That was simply an example.

[Omega-202]

5 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

Nope, you probably did that before things were changed to the way they are now. Now you are in your happy place and you don't want to give any fraction of that up. By the way, all the people who used to absolutely love this game the way it was, then left the game because people like you demanded it be made easier and less gated thanks you for stomping your feet and demanding that everyone play by your sides rules.

Lol, nope.  I never suggested any such things.  Back during live, I had way too much time on my hands and never minded how grindy it was.  And do you think I was somehow involved in the secret server streamlining process?  That's where most of the grind was removed, after the game got shut down.  I wouldn't have kept my mouth shut if I was aware of that server and would have been booted in a day.  

 

Guy, you need to get some fresh air.  Go for a stroll and cool off.  You're just lashing out at this point.  

[Solarverse]

5 hours ago, Lockpick said:

I can always count on you to attack people.  I find it ironic that in one breath you say you have more respect for people that seem nice and in the next breath you are calling me selfish for expressing an opinion. 

 

As to your specific question, it doesn't benefit me at all how you play your character.

 

However, from a lore perspective, I believe that someone cannot become a member of Vanguard until that character gets the Member of Vanguard badge.  It seems reasonable that if someone wanted to be a member of Vanguard they would have to earn a spot and then the parts would be unlocked.  It seems reasonable to me that Vanguard wouldn't just let any level 1 character in.

 

Before I joined the Army I wanted to be a Ranger.  Becoming a Ranger required me to join the Army, pass Basic Training, Pass Advanced Infantry Training, pass Airborne School, pass the Ranger Indoctrination Program, join the Ranger regiment, compete for a Ranger school slot, and then pass Ranger school to earn my Ranger tab.  That is a logical progression.  I do not believe it is unreasonable to have some instances of that type progression in the game as long as it is limited and everyone has the ability to complete the accomplishment.

 

 

Why is that people expressing an opinion and making suggestions for additional rewards behind certain accomplishments are "stomping their feet and demanding everyone play by their rules"? 

 

I understand your opinion.  My opinion is different.  I'm not attacking you for your opinion and it would be refreshing if you could restrain yourself from attacking others for their opinions.

This right here. I could not have said it better myself. Thank you, Lockpick.

[Solarverse]

5 hours ago, Xeres said:

 I'm not completely positive but I don't think there's any costume piece gated in terms of in game achievements

They used to be. You had to unlock the Vanguard costume and the Cimerora costume.

[Solarverse]

5 hours ago, DSorrow said:

Probably not, but I think gating valuable content (costumes, accolades, etc) behind intrinsically bad content is a backwards approach to fixing bad content. With TFC, most people do Synapse at most once per character, while Posi and Yin probably get several playthroughs even by people who skip TFC by getting the equivalent accolade redside. Obviously it's much more resource intensive to revamp whole TFs, but I think in the long term that's a better use of resources.

What do you consider bad content? The Hollows story arcs? I never found those personally to be boring, in fact I still play them this very day. However, keep in mind that was simply an example. hell, it could be something brand new with really a great story. However, adding more merits for playing a Task Force at higher difficulty also appeals to me. There is more than one way to skin a cat. There are no absolutes. I am willing to find a compromise and I am open to suggestions. For an example, the merits suggestion was not mine, that was an alternative given by another poster.

 

[jubakumbi]

56 minutes ago, Naraka said:

The problem, IMO, is scope. You're making a mountain of of a molehill here.

 

And context clues is how you can discern meaning from something even if a piece of information is lost or mixed up. You pretty much went on a tangent about monetization despite that having nothing to do with the rest of the context. Dialing it back now still doesn't mean the objection has as much weight bringing aspects of retail vs non-retail since that is completely superfluous. Chess is free but we don't just skip rules. 

 

As for the other jabs you put in there, you have to be accurate if you want them to hit.

I prefer to examine the why over the details of the thing discussed, so sure, I do have a differnt scope, cannot disagree.

I draw context where I see it, thanks, not just where you think it's appropriate. 🙂

Not dialing back at all really, I totally think the whole idea of having to earn costume rewards is directly tied to the monetization of these games ad is the root cause of training people to think these gates are a 'playstyle', I was using it also as an example of leveraging the PWE in others as a dopamine lever.

We make the rules, we can alter them at will, it's not chess ... but it is now COH:HC, so really, HC makes the rules.

 

The only intersting thing to me is why people bring up these ideas, especially for a gme in this state, the brain chemistry and outlook behind the thoughts are the fascinating part, the details all just change form game to game, mountain to mountain, molehill to molehill.

Totally different scope, no question.

Why people want to turn games like this into discrete chores is just one of teh things I love to examine within the gaming community.

[Troo]

1 minute ago, Solarverse said:

What do you consider bad content?

Ooo Oo what's that arc in Atlas with the annoying heroes and their drama?!

[Solarverse]

6 hours ago, tidge said:

How would you feel if you were the only person playing behind a gate?

It happens all the time, they are called console games.

 

How would you feel if you were the only person who got everything for free? It just wouldn't be the same, would it?

 

 

 

 

Edited November 20, 2020 by Solarverse

[jubakumbi]

2 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

What do you consider bad content?

Virtually all of it, because it's all written in such a way that it virtually removes all character/player agency.

Most all of it forces the character down a narrow path, IMO.

No different than most of the rest of the genre, TBH.

[EmmySky]

3 minutes ago, Troo said:

Ooo Oo what's that arc in Atlas with the annoying heroes and their drama?!

Stop talking about me, Troo 😛  

 

 

Nerf regen!

[Solarverse]

4 hours ago, Ukase said:

On one hand, the idea of time sink really rubs me the wrong way. There's only so many hours in a day. 

But, in practice, let's consider the test server:

Instant 50. 

Everything's free. 

The only downside is the likely wipe of your characters - which you can rebuild in a few minutes if you've made a copy of the build in mids. 

And yet...5% of the player base will visit it? And those, most are to actually test the upcoming patch. A few to maybe check how a character may pan out at 50, but that's a very small number of people. 

Things are easy here on HC. (relatively) Some may frown upon marketing or farming, but both are easy - even if you find them tedious or dull. You can get all the IO goodness you want, if you are familiar with the ways to accumulate inf. Even if you're not - you keep playing, you'll get there. 

But what keeps us playing? Sure, it's fun (a truly subjective word) to smash level 9's in Perez Park when you're level 50. 
As much as we may like our characters, and this game - one thing is true - there's not much that is new. Yes, a couple of arcs have been added, and a couple more are to follow. (as well as the Market Crash TF)
So, in order to keep people playing there needs to be a reason to do so. As "fun" as a given tf is, there's going to be a limit to how many times someone will think that tf is fun. Most folks may enjoy the content, but they do it for merits. And they want those merits for various reasons. Some want to make more inf for their alts. Some want converters. Uses will vary. 

If everything is handed to us, then what's the motivation to sit in ouroboros doing nothing for 20 minutes until a league is formed? What's the motivation to have a character that's level 50+3, t-4'd? Sure it might be fun...but what do you actually do if you no longer require anything from the rewards offered? For some, the joy is in teaming and cracking jokes with in-game friends. For others, it's a sense of accomplishment. (or both)

But if you take away the obstacles to certain in game privileges, then there's nothing to move towards. You're stagnant. Most will get bored. And log off. And stay off. 

Agreed. 100% agree.

[Solarverse]

44 minutes ago, Omega-202 said:

Lol, nope.  I never suggested any such things.  Back during live, I had way too much time on my hands and never minded how grindy it was.  And do you think I was somehow involved in the secret server streamlining process?  That's where most of the grind was removed, after the game got shut down.  I wouldn't have kept my mouth shut if I was aware of that server and would have been booted in a day.  

 

Guy, you need to get some fresh air.  Go for a stroll and cool off.  You're just lashing out at this point.  

I know, which is why I changed my tone. I was very heated. Thank you for recognizing that and not taking it personal. You get a like for that and a bit of respect.

[Solarverse]

19 minutes ago, Troo said:

Ooo Oo what's that arc in Atlas with the annoying heroes and their drama?!

That would be the players, Troo.   😄

[DSorrow]

1 hour ago, Solarverse said:

I don't see why I even owe any of you an explanation as to why I find something fun.

Well, you are trying to convince an audience about your suggestion, and typically that means you owe the audience an explanation of why the suggestion should be implemented. If you are unable to, or even blatantly refuse to do so especially when asked to elaborate, it shouldn't come to you as a surprise when people don't readily agree with you.

 

1 hour ago, Solarverse said:

The hypocrisy is real

Hypocrisy? People discussed the issue back then and some arguments were more convincing than others, end of story. There was no hypocrisy, bad guys or victims just like there's none of that now, just better and worse justified arguments and points of view. Besides, back then I would probably have supported gating, so trying to play the "your team" card is hilarious at best. I don't root for any "team" except the one whose arguments make the most sense and you don't even try to elaborate on yours.

 

That said, as you don't seem to want to explain your position, I don't think there's much point in trying to continue what I hoped could have been a calm and rational discussion. 

[Solarverse]

Just now, DSorrow said:

Well, you are trying to convince an audience about your suggestion, and typically that means you owe the audience an explanation of why the suggestion should be implemented. If you are unable to, or even blatantly refuse to do so especially when asked to elaborate, it shouldn't come to you as a surprise when people don't readily agree with you.

Here is the problem, I have given my reasons in great detail all throughout this thread. It's never good enough, people will not accept my reasons. I can never give you a reason that you will agree with because you simply do not agree. I can't give you any more reasons than what I already have. The reasons why I feel this is fun is irrelevant. The only thing that should matter is that I do indeed feel it is fun. The problem is that no matter what reason I give, you will not be able to relate to them and those reasons will never be good enough...as this thread has shown. I have given my reasons. I do not owe any further explanation. Hell, I even wrote damn near an whole post on why this is fun to players like me. I don't know if you skipped it or felt it wasn't good enough, regardless it is irrelevant.

Just now, DSorrow said:

 

Hypocrisy? People discussed the issue back then and some arguments were more convincing than others, end of story. There was no hypocrisy, bad guys or victims just like there's none of that now, just better and worse justified arguments and points of view. Besides, back then I would probably have supported gating, so trying to play the "your team" card is hilarious at best. I don't root for any "team" except the one whose arguments make the most sense and you don't even try to elaborate on yours.

I'm not the one who started the "your team" somebody else did that. So since it has now been broken down in to "teams" I am simply following suit. Sorry, not gonna pin that on me. You should have said that to the person who started that whole thing to begin with.

Just now, DSorrow said:

That said, as you don't seem to want to explain your position, I don't think there's much point in trying to continue what I hoped could have been a calm and rational discussion. 

You have challenged irrelevance. There is nothing rational about that. I have not asked you why you feel having everything pretty much handed to you is fun, because no matter what reason you give I will never be able to relate to. Same thing here.

[CrudeVileTerror]

Ok, so, my eyes glazed over a bit in places when people started arguing about one another's levels of respect, so I apologize if I missed it, but . . . . maybe this is worth stating, expanding from @EmmySky's message:

 

Some players feel that cosmetics are not part of gameplay.

Some players feel that cosmetics are rewards for gameplay.

Some players feel the entire game -is- the cosmetics (and player agency, et cetera).

 

While these three statements are true, we're going to have to look in COMPLETELY DIFFERENT DIRECTIONS to find compromises.

 

So, @Solarverse, what other directions would you find rewarding?

[DSorrow]

1 minute ago, Solarverse said:

you simply do not agree

Only because you refuse to argue your position when presented with follow up questions. My disagreeing with you isn't a universal constant.

 

3 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

You should have said that to the person who started that whole thing to begin with.

I don't care who started what, you yourself decided to use that course of bad faith strategy out of free will to attempt to discredit me, and that's what I am pinning on you. 

 

That's it for me, though, not going to waste any more of my time if you can't be bothered to make a good faith attempt at actually discussing your ideas.

[Solarverse]

4 minutes ago, CrudeVileTerror said:

So, @Solarverse, what other directions would you find rewarding?

One particular idea I have seen somebody come up with was higher quantity of merits for running Task Forces on Max Difficulty. Maybe more for imposing time limits, buffed mobs, so on and so forth. Maybe more for clearing maps that would otherwise be skipped straight to the boss room. Those could be very rewarding accomplishments and rewards. Maybe creating content that has new costume styles or pieces behind gated missions, but after 6 months becomes free to all without gated content (I know, that is a stretch) Maybe have a Task Force that grants the user an extra aura to add on top of the aura you currently have but again is unlocked for all after 6 months or so. Perhaps a one time Task Force that unlocks a Power Set that is tied behind the story line of the Task Force that once is done by a single character, unlocks account wide?

I am open to further suggestions.

[Lockpick]

50 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

One particular idea I have seen somebody come up with was higher quantity of merits for running Task Forces on Max Difficulty. Maybe more for imposing time limits, buffed mobs, so on and so forth. Maybe more for clearing maps that would otherwise be skipped straight to the boss room. Those could be very rewarding accomplishments and rewards. Maybe creating content that has new costume styles or pieces behind gated missions, but after 6 months becomes free to all without gated content (I know, that is a stretch) Maybe have a Task Force that grants the user an extra aura to add on top of the aura you currently have but again is unlocked for all after 6 months or so. Perhaps a one time Task Force that unlocks a Power Set that is tied behind the story line of the Task Force that once is done by a single character, unlocks account wide?

I am open to further suggestions.

 

I definitely would like to see reward rationalization across the board and would favor providing higher rewards for doing content with various difficulty challenges.  I would also like to see additional rewards for existing content that does not have rewards today.

• Maybe a passive accolade power for completing the 4 shadow shard task forces plus some combination of exploration / history badges
• Maybe rewards for vet levels plus combinations of badges or accomplishments
  • Vet level 50 + Task Force Commander receives a badge + X
  • Vet level 100 + the 4 passive badges receives a badge + X
  • Vet level 150 + Z receives a badge + X
  • Etc.
• Maybe new day job badges for logging off in the Abyss or the Hive
• Maybe a new accolade for achieving all the day job powers in the game
• Maybe a new costume part and an accolade for completing all the TFs in the game
• Maybe a new costume part and an accolade for completing all the Trials in the game
• Maybe a reward for completing all the missions in the Oro portal

Y'all know this is just an opinion, right?  I'm not dictating how anyone should play the game, just providing my opinion that I wouldn't mind seeing new rewards for existing content.