What is the point?

[oedipus_tex]

A couple of things happened toward the end of the OG life that hurt Controllers and Dominators. Mainly we just kill stuff too fast now.

• Blaster/Defender/Corruptor nukes were going to become crashless and have their recharges significantly lowered (this never existed on live, was still on test servers when the game was shut down)
• Refactoring of proc damage to a PPM schedule suddenly made many attacks do more damage
• ATOs which were intended as a pay-to-win mechanic became unlocked for free and widely available
• Judgement available for every team member
• Level shifts, one of the single strongest buffs available in the game, were allowed to exist in content designed to cap at +4

 

Most teams are simply killing stuff way, way faster than we did on live. I have old videos of my highly IOed characters soloing at +0 x8 and me being soooo proud. 😄 These days that performance out of a level 50 decked out character would be laughable. I don't want to make it sound like the OG was an equalitarian paradise, but you did used to have more uses for controls because stuff was just plain more dangerous and harder to kill.

Edited January 3, 2021 by oedipus_tex

[Coyote]

On 1/2/2021 at 4:54 PM, Ultimo said:

Group 2 meets a spawn of enemies.  The blaster hits them with an AOE attack, and they're all defeated... or the Tanker taunts them, and they can't attack the rest of the group.  The Defender heals or bubbles or does whatever his powers do, protecting the group.  In either case, the group is being helped, either by having damage done to the enemy or protection provided to the group.

 

Couple of notes:

1: If the Blaster is defeating the spawn with an AoE attack (even, say a Build-Up/Aim and Nuke)... we're talking higher level Blasters. At this level, the Controller for most builds should have an AoE shutdown mez that neutralizes everyone except a Boss. So just as the Blaster is removing all the minions from being a threat, the Controller is doing the same for minions/lts, and then stacking Holds on the Bosses. So this adds a lot of protection.

2: The Defender heals/bubbles/whatever. The Controller's buffs/debuffs are not far behind the Defender, except that they follow an AoE mez that just shut everyone down. If the Defender's protection abilities are valuable, the Controller's slightly weaker abilities, with mezzes added, are far more valuable.

 

And a personal experience: on Live, back when IOs were still pretty new and kitted-out leveling characters were almost non-existed, I remember my team saying "OMG, we're going to die horribly"... in the 20s, and I had the difficulty cranked up to max (this was back in the 4-difficulty-level system). So the spawns were +3/+4 to me, and 4/5 to most of the team, in the 20s. My Earth/Storm led the way, shut down the mobs, and we had zero deaths in a kill-all with a max sized team. Because all of the mobs were falling down over and over again, when they weren't Stunned or Held. Heck, I was the only one in any danger ever, because I was taking the alpha. That's the defensive ability of a Controller, and almost no Defenders come close. And that was with /Storm, not even one of the stronger defensive sets.

[oedipus_tex]

What's unfortunate is I think some newer players never got to play the game under the older rule sets. Sometimes when we talk about how things were "harder" they think that we mean the game was actually "hard." It wasn't, it was just that the late game powers that ruled the game were your actual power picks and not incarnate powers. That made the game thrilling in a way that I don't really find it now. Each team member could mostly feel like they were contributing something. Controllers and Dominators really took a hit when the meta shifted hard to pure damage.

 

I think the Homecoming team has done an amazing job with what the OG team left as the servers were closing, but I really miss the thrill this game provided. There was a real sense that the team needed some cohesion to succeed.

Edited January 4, 2021 by oedipus_tex

[Steel]

12 hours ago, oedipus_tex said:

the late game powers that ruled the game were your actual power picks and not incarnate powers. That made the game thrilling in a way that I don't really find it now.

IMHO, Incarnates broke the game. I would have preferred it if the original devs had limited the use of Incarnate powers to Incarnate content, with just the alpha slot (and level shift) available for regular level 50 content. But it's too late for that now. 

[Carnifax]

On 1/2/2021 at 9:54 PM, Ultimo said:

Group 1 meets a spawn of enemies.  The controller controls them all.  They are now all immobilized, but are still attacking.  This doesn't really help the team at all.  The enemies have taken no damage, and are still able to do damage.  OR the controller puts them all to sleep.  Now, the very first attack will wake them up.  Those that aren't awakened are still asleep for about 2 seconds...

 

Group 2 meets a spawn of enemies.  The blaster hits them with an AOE attack, and they're all defeated... or the Tanker taunts them, and they can't attack the rest of the group.  The Defender heals or bubbles or does whatever his powers do, protecting the group.  In either case, the group is being helped, either by having damage done to the enemy or protection provided to the group.

Wait what? Why on earth would a Controller open with their AOE Immob? 

 

Earth > Quake, AOE Stun or Gasses

Fire > AOE Stun, KD Patch (assuming kb2kd IO) or AOE Hold

Mind > Fear, AOE Hold or aggroless AOE confuse

Grav > Non-aggroing Wormhole (bonus points for kb2kd and placing them on top of the meatshield), AOE Hold

Plant > Seeds, AOE Hold, Creepers (to take the alpha and general writhing chaos)

Illusion > Phantom Army tanks the alpha, Spectral Terror (with masses of -ToHit)

Dark > Fear (-ToHit), AOE Hold. Follow up with PBAOE Stun if Feared

Elec > Aggroless Chained Confuse, Sleep patch which auto-reapplies, AOE Hold

Ice > KD Patch, AOE Hold (poor Ice)

 

That's without the secondaries (ie being able to do the Defender stuff you cite in Scenario 2). Opening with an AoE Immob is the sort of thing you do on the DFB, get killed for and then resolve to be a better entity from then on. 

 

I mean you could have rewritten #2 to : 

Group 2 meets a spawn of enemies.  The blaster hits them with an AOE attack, they take some damage, turn around and shoot him in the face, killing him instantly.

 

I agree with oedipus_tex on the overall issues lategame with Control not being as needed as say the mid 20s, there's too much lategame powercreep. Incarnates need a good kicking in day to day play.

 

But that affects everyone. I mean on my Kinetics corruptor I find it hard sometimes even to Fulc Shift before a Spawn has been mass AOEd to death. I've been a tank where the amount of control means I've little to do overall other than maybe jump in as pointman soley so people know when to unleash (not even for aggro control purposes, just literally as the Go). 

 

Thing is, lategame on an 8 man team no-one is irreplacable. Anyone could AFK and the team could quite happily trundle on. There's literally just Too Much for any set of enemies to cope with. Content tends to become more interesting on a 4-5 man team with raised diff rather than an 8 man due to the powercreep. 

 

Edited January 5, 2021 by Carnifax

[Oxalid]

On 11/13/2020 at 5:41 AM, Riverdusk said:

y real degree in my experience are mind

I can understand the sentiment, but controllers have always been one of my fav.  Have you ever played on an all-controller team?  Easily one of the most relaxed sessions you will ever have - all the mobs are locked up, NOTHING moves, and everyone's pets chew them up.  My favorite character back in the day was my grav/rad troller.  The gravity powers have a single target and group hold powers, and the pet throws single target immob, hold, and knockdowns.  The rad power set has some of the best debuffs for both defense and DR.  Want to watch an AV melt?  Keep those spammed.  All-in-all, I think its a different play-style that doesn't suit all, but can be just as fast and damaging if played right.

  

[vibal]

Someone touched on it in page 2, but the difference between force addition and force multiplication is shocking.

 

1 blaster adds exactly 1 blaster worth of damage to the team (caveat for secondary effects such as -to-hit, -def etc & occasional leadership buffs). 1 support multiplies the (x) attribute value of the entire team (damage, resist, def etc) until you reach the cap. Each support ALSO multiplies the enemy value by -(x) attribute for each debuff (res, def, regen). So a team of 8 blasters do (blaster * 8 ) damage. A team of 8 controllers (or def, cor, etc) do (controller * 8 ) * (buff value) * (debuff values). Couple that with the status effects that controllers have access to and it's shocking how powerful they are on a team.

[neon1nj4]

I can't tell if this is a troll post or not but, Controller and Dominators have mostly non-sleep holds. They can lock down bosses and sometimes even AVs. They can hold a whole group at bay if too many got pulled or if the tank is being overwhelmed. Can turn some to fight for you or make them cower in fear. Looking at one or two or even three sets on a controller is far from seeing the whole picture. And as for immobs, if the tank were to die or a dps/healer gets aggro, you can lock them down so they can't reach the squishies. They bring a lot more to the table than you're giving them credit for.

[Doc Ranger]

Agree the IO/Incarnate system broke the game. For this reason when I start a team I'll run 50 +4/+8 mishes but only invite 3 or 4 people max. Run the mishes with 4-5 people and it's much more fun. You actually see each person's contributions and what each character brings to the table. 

 

Until we can have the ability to just turn off all the IO/Incarnate stuff for everyone on the team as a mish difficulty...this is what I do. 

[Riverdusk]

19 hours ago, Doc Ranger said:

 

Until we can have the ability to just turn off all the IO/Incarnate stuff for everyone on the team as a mish difficulty...this is what I do. 

 

Those would be fun difficulty options.

 

As to the original poster, upon reading the follow-up post made back in January it seems a bit hopeless as they still seemed fixated that controllers only opening options and main purposes were immobilizing and sleeping despite being told many times that is a minor part (and in some powersets zero part) of being a controller.  

[plainguy]

On 1/3/2021 at 7:46 PM, oedipus_tex said:

What's unfortunate is I think some newer players never got to play the game under the older rule sets. Sometimes when we talk about how things were "harder" they think that we mean the game was actually "hard." It wasn't, it was just that the late game powers that ruled the game were your actual power picks and not incarnate powers. That made the game thrilling in a way that I don't really find it now. Each team member could mostly feel like they were contributing something. Controllers and Dominators really took a hit when the meta shifted hard to pure damage.

 

I think the Homecoming team has done an amazing job with what the OG team left as the servers were closing, but I really miss the thrill this game provided. There was a real sense that the team needed some cohesion to succeed.

Invention sets and how they were given out really messed up the game group wise..  

Before that if you wanted to level at a decent rate and fight all the different mobs you needed a team.. Everyone was LFT or creating a team..  You didn't need to ask anyone to join a team. It was just everyone was looking..  

Further you were picking Arch Types and powersets.. You wanted an empath.. You wanted a kin.. You even wanted a force field..  

Then AE came.. That fucked this game even more..  It was amazing that you could get from 1 to 50 in a few hours when farming AE was introduced as they had no cap or limit on it.. 

Then Incarnates.. They were good for the Incarnate missions.. But beyond that those powers put you in god mode.. The only great thing about them is it helped me build my Petless masterminds..  The endurance redux powers and Endurance recovery powers allows a Petless mastermind to be like a normal level 50 character..  Yes less DPS but can do 3/8 settings and kill AV ( tested on inferno )

Now honestly I just power level every toon to 50.. I have enough money during the power level runs to build out the character. 30+ assorted IOed level 50 toons and about 8 Petless masterminds in that mix.. Again they are IOed out doing 3/8 mission settings..  

[Snarky]

On 11/9/2020 at 10:55 PM, Ultimo said:

So, I find myself trying to decide what exactly the point is of these ATs? 

Forty-two.

[Vengeful Arrow]

I feel that if you have a gravity and don't see the fun or point in it, it's just lost. My role, especially on a steam roll team, is to feed the machine. As they are killing, I wormhole surrounding groups right on top of the pile. Before they even have a chance to move on, the room is cleared. And that's a level 18ish power. Or you can wormhole a group down a hall while you click an objective. Usually even if something is resistant to stun they still,get teleported. And thats just one power that is extremely useful on a steam rolling team, not to mention my buffs. Mine is gravity time so boosting the defense and recharge of people that have high amounts with no debuff resists ensures they never even notice when they get debuffed. And I even got dimension shift and I survey the scene. If the brute or melee has blinders and aggro gets out of control, I shift the incoming group and ready my other tools. Either the melee runs into the bubble and slaughter stuff or I lock them down or wormhole them when I release the shift. Sometimes not getting a compliment is my biggest reward. It means I'm doing something right and have proven my own self worth without them saying a word. It's like people who get adrenalin boost or fulcrum and never even stop to wonder why they are a beast. In my head I'm just like,"You're welcome".   But that's my takeaway. If that's not a decent contribution to a broken system, I don't know what is. 

[cfarevival]

I play a high-level loyalist controller (psi/mind) and a high level blue side controller (plant/poison)—both of whom I have been working on to perfect.  I also have an incredibly fun dominator (fire/grav) and a powerful corrupter (Dual Pistols/Time) and am currently building the ultimate control Stalker (Psi/Dark/Soul).

 

That being said, I have an affinity for controlling toons.  If you are running radios, any tank or brute is likely going to be able to solo that content.  Why even need a team?  Because it is faster and more fun that way.  When I run teams, there is an array of goals: lowbies want xp, newbies (and vets!) love content, some want to chill and wreck shop, some want to test toons abilities, and some want to solo (WHY DID YOU JOIN MY TEAM!?!?!?!?). For all situations except the last, controllers are the bread and butter that bring it all together.  They CONTROL the battlefield.  If it was a game of chess, controllers have unilateral permission to move everyone’s pieces to disadvantage the opposing side and nearly guarantee a win to your side.  This is more true as the content gets more difficult.

 

I believe the problem is two-fold:

 

1) People fail to recognize what the controller is actually accomplishing.

 

2) You lack the ability to time travel and see what-would-have-been-minus-a-troller.

 

This leads to trollers being under appreciated for the massive effect they have on speed and survivability.  You haven’t thought  this through @Ultimo.  If a troller immobilizes a bunch of melee toons, they are sitting ducks.  Sure, ranged toons can still fire, but the most powerful combatants in-game can now be totally hampered.  Sleep is nice when dealing with too much aggro.  An effective troller can see the potential problem and mitigate it instantly.  Not to mention the incredible array of other controlling powers powers.  My encouragement to you: roll a psi/mind troller and figure him out.

 

Oh!  Almost forgot!  My friend Monk frequently controls the composition of his teams.  Let me tell you! He is mightily good at it.  Some of the most powerful teams I have seen and some great strategies.  We +4/8 Katie (AV was +7 to us) and it was epic!  Perhaps you should consider controlling the composition of your teams…

 

Edited August 1, 2021 by cfarevival