Unity: A Melee-Support Hybrid

[Alchemystic]

Time and time again do we see the oft-suggested 'Melee/Support' archetype. It comes in different names, but rarely in different structure. There's no doubt that there is a demand for an archetype that can fill the role, but despite the constant vocalisation of that it tends to eventually be drowned out by the slew of feedback that questions its viability. 

 

Without going into too much detail, there are issues in the Melee/Support design that are problematic, many of which lie with the Support side of things. Not all Support sets are suitable for operating in close range, and many of them lack the ability to protect the player as well as his teammates. Which is why I've been pondering a new powerset type in response to this; Unity.

 

Unity powersets are simple. They act like AoE versions of the current armor powersets, allowing them to not only support the team, but also protect themselves from the amount of aggression they will face in melee range. Now, this isn't just a conversion of the armor powersets, but it does use them, as well as many support powersets, to create a structure to work from. Naturally, this new powerset type comes with advantages and disadvantages, intended to serve as a middle ground between armor and support... it does not outperform them, but it does allow for a change of playstyle. Unity as a powerset is intended to provide a little extra support mainly for other melee archetypes, but can also aid ranged archetypes with a little positional adjustment.

So, here is the basic formula for a Unity powerset;

 

1 - AoE Armor toggle: This initial power acts much like an Armor power, but also grants the armor to nearby allies as well. Typically a resistance/defense power for smashing and lethal.

2 - Autopower: A simple autopower that will act as a baseline protection for the player. It could be as simple as a resistance power, or a +MaxHP power as seen in armor powersets. 

3 - AoE Heal, Buff or Debuff: Similar to support sets like Empathy, Pain, Thermal and so on... a simple AoE Heal power or similar effect helps keep both you and your allies alive.

4 - Second AoE Armor toggle: Just as above, filling in resistance/defense power for fire, cold, energy and negative.

5 - AoE Damage/Debuff Power: Much like many armor and manipulation sets, having access to an AoE damage or debuff power helps keep on the pressure.

6 - AoE Mez Protection: A Click power that grants mez protection to yourself and nearby allies for a short while, definitely needed to keep the fight going.

7 - Self Heal/Buff: A little more in the way of personal survival could do well here, allowing you to keep yourself alive so you can continue to support your allies.

8 - AoE Debuff Power: Like before, another debuff power would do wonders to keep the enemy at bay, ensuring that you and your teammates have an easier time in the fight.

9 - AoE Mega Buff/Debuff: As the capstone ability of this powerset, something with high power and long cooldown is likely best here, whether it's a buff or debuff.

 

With that in mind, let's look at some easy examples of what could be done;

 

Fiery Unity:

 - Flame Ward: A hybridisation of Fire Shield and Thermal Shield

 - Temperature Protection: Same power that belongs to Fiery Aura

 - Warmth: Same power that belongs to Thermal Radiation

 - Blazing Aura: Same power that belongs to Fiery Aura

 - Plasma Ward: A hybridisation of both forms of Plasma Shield

 - Thawing Heat: A PBAoE version of Thaw

 - Healing Flames: Same power that belongs to Fiery Aura

 - Consume: Same power that belongs to Fiery Aura

 - Melting Blast: A PBAoE version of Melt Armor

 

Icy Unity:

 - Ice Ward: A hybridisation of Ice Shield and Frozen Armor

 - Permafrost: Same power that belongs to Ice Armor

 - Chilling Embrace: Same power that belongs to Ice Armor

 - Icicles: Same power that belongs to Ice Armor

 - Glacial Ward: A hybridisation of Glacial Shield and Glacial Armor

 - Black Ice: A PBAoE version of Wet Ice

 - Hoarfrost: Same power that belongs to Ice Armor

 - Energy Absorption: Same power that belongs to Ice Armor

 - Heat Siphon: A PBAoE version of Heat Loss

 

Other powersets will likely take more work, but hopefully you can see what can be done with some very basic concepts. Now, as for their application, I have some ideas as to what could be done, just as a little showcase as to what archetypes could be built around something like this;

 

Guardian: 

Primary: Unity

Secondary: Melee

Ancillary: Ranged/Mez

Inherent: Stalwart: The effects of your heals, as well as resistance and defense buffs affect you and your allies more depending on what other archetypes are present. While there are more Brutes, Tankers, Scrappers, Stalkers or Sentinels nearby, your outgoing buffs receive a large boost to strength. When there are more Blasters, Masterminds, Controllers, Dominators, Defenders or Corruptors nearby, your personal buffs receive a large boost to strength. While there are more Peacebringers, Warshades, Soldiers and Widows nearby, both your outgoing and personal buffs receive a small boost to strength.

 

Overseer:

Primary: Henchmen (Melee Conversion)
Secondary: Unity

Ancillary: Ranged/Mez

Inherent: Command: Your outgoing buffs to pets are more powerful if there are less teammates nearby. With more teammates nearby, your pets will instead deal more damage.

 

Champion:

Primary: Assault

Secondary: Unity

Ancillary: Ranged/Debuff

Inherent: Adaptiveness: Your melee powers have reduced endurance cost when there are more Brutes, Tankers, Scrappers, Stalkers or Sentinels nearby. Your ranged powers have reduced endurance cost when there are more Blasters, Masterminds, Controllers, Dominators, Defenders or Corruptors nearby. When there are more Blasters, Masterminds, Controllers, Dominators, Defenders or Corruptors nearby, all your powers have a slight reduced endurance cost.
 

 

 

Edited November 20, 2020 by Tyrannical

[CrudeVileTerror]

I appreciate the effort and thought you put in to this, @Tyrannical, and I really don't mean to derail things so soon, but . . . 

I'm not sure the theoretical problem of being in melee is necessarily going to be an actual problem.

So, not to hijack this entire thread, because I would definitely like to see a Support / Melee Archetype, but let's take a moment to examine the Defender before diving too deeply in to a version of this new Archetype that would require entirely new Powers be created and balanced, and let's be as eco-friendly as we can!

 

A lone Defender is a bit of a plodding experience, with some of the Primary Support Sets being much more solo-friendly than others.

This is known.

 

A Defender on a team becomes a force multiplier, with some of the Primary Support Sets being stronger or weaker in different team make-ups (Kinetics favours a team with Meleeists, Thermal Radiation favours a team with Range, et cetera).

This is also known.

 

A new player trying to Solo as a Defender might have some problems, but the lowest difficulty settings are mostly accessible with the likes of Vigilance's Damage buff.

A new player teaming as a Defender will probably feel more rewarded and rewarding.

A new player getting in to melee as a solo Defender is probably going to have a bad time.

A new player getting in to melee as a Defender while on a team will, hopefully (and I daresay:  Likely!), have teammates to offset the dangers of being in melee.

 

A veteran player soloing as a Defender might be a bit challenged, but it's more likely that they'll leverage their skills and understanding to absolutely break-face (some Defender Primaries are absolutely beautiful, even solo).

A veteran player teaming as a Defender is . . . well, as squishie as the Defender is, there's no shortage of players out there who can cover for their entire team sometimes.

A veteran Defender solo in melee?  Depending on the build, sometimes that's exactly where they want to be!

A veteran Defender teaming in melee?  Maybe the AoE-spam might make things a little dicey, but between the rest of the team's involvement AND the skills the Defender has, chances are that melee isn't much of a concern anyway.

 

I realize my perspective on this is limited, of course, so I welcome others to offer contrary points of view to try and balance this out . . . but I'd also like to ask:   How many of us who've been playing for years and years . . . how many of us play as a Defender and -don't- get in to the thick of things from time to time?

 

And if Defenders are acceptable in melee, then do we -really- need to redesign Support Sets for a Support/Melee Archetype?

Wouldn't a solid Inherent that reinforces melee-centric support gameplay and an adequate Hit Point pool be enough to validate the existing Support Sets exactly as-is?

I get it.   I might be playing my Defenders "wrong," what with getting in to melee all the time anyway . . . but I sure don't faceplant as a Defender nearly as much as I do as a Scrapper!

 

 

 

But speaking to a series of Sets which are hybridized between Support Powers and Survival Powers?

Yeah.   *nods*

I do like the idea.

I just think it's a LOT more work than the optimum play for making a Support / Melee Archetype.

[Alchemystic]

1 minute ago, CrudeVileTerror said:

And if Defenders are acceptable in melee, then do we -really- need to redesign Support Sets for a Support/Melee Archetype?

Wouldn't a solid Inherent that reinforces melee-centric support gameplay and an adequate Hit Point pool be enough to validate the existing Support Sets exactly as-is?

I get it.   I might be playing my Defenders "wrong," what with getting in to melee all the time anyway . . . but I sure don't faceplant as a Defender nearly as much as I do as a Scrapper!

A defender is entirely acceptable in melee, they are of course intended to support all archetypes, and that certainly includes melee. However, they aren't expected to put themselves in close range for so long since a majority of their powers are effective at range instead of melee. There are of course exceptions to this, but they tend to be PBAoE powers, not strictly Melee. 

 

The idea of Unity powersets is to provide better footing for a melee-based support archetype (or archetypes), so that they have an easier time managing themselves when subject to the aggro of mobs in close range.

 

In addition to this, there aren't any dedicated PBAoE armor powers, except for a token few that often have other mechanics tied to them like debuff or stealth. I think exploring this possibility could open up some rather unique playstyles not yet accessible to players, while also providing a better platform for melee-support archetypes to be realized. 

[Alchemystic]

Here's two more possible Unity powersets following the formula above, hopefully this should paint a clearer picture as to what this powerset type could look like!

Dark Unity:

 - Dark Ward: PBAoE version of Dark Embrace

 - Shadow Dweller: Same power that belongs to Dark Armor

 - Fade: Same power that belongs to Dark Affinity

 - Death Shroud: Same power that belongs to Dark Armor

 - Murky Ward: PBAoE version of Murky Cloud

 - Obsidian Cloak: PBAoE click version of Obsidian Shield

 - Dark Regeneration: Same power that belongs to Dark Armor

 - Soul Absorption: Same power that belongs to Dark Affinity

 - Black Hole: Same power that belongs to Dark Affinity

 

Electric Unity

 - Charged Ward: PBAoE version of Charged Armor

 - Grounded: Same power that belongs to Electric Armor

 - Revitalizing Circuit: PB-Chain version of Rejuvenating Circuit

 - Lightning Field: Same power that belongs to Electric Armor

 - Conductive Ward: PBAoE version of Conductive Shield

 - Faraday Cage: Same power that belongs to Electric Affinity

 - Energize: Same power that belongs to Electric Armor

 - Power Sink: Same power that belongs to Electric Armor

 - EM Pulse: Same power that belongs to Electric Mastery

Edited November 25, 2020 by Tyrannical

[Solarverse]

Until the Collision Mechanics are reverted, I honestly do not want to see any more Melee ATs. I'm sorry, but my Tank and Stalker get pushed around enough in the middle of a Melee Battle, to add more people to jump in that frenzy and cause me to be shoved all over the place on my Tank, or cause my Stalker to have Assassin's Strike interrupted because the collision mechanics pushed me far enough to count for an interupt drives me insane as it stands now. So unless the HC Devs want to revert the Collision Mechanics, I simply do not want more Melee ATs creating even more chaos in the mix.

[Alchemystic]

@Solarverse lets say for the sake of being constructive the collision mechanics were changed, do you have any relevant input to the topic itself?

[Solarverse]

4 minutes ago, Tyrannical said:

@Solarverse lets say for the sake of being constructive the collision mechanics were changed, do you have any relevant input to the topic itself?

No I do not, because I don't see anything wrong with it. In fact, I like it. I just want to see the Collision Mechanics reverted before anything like this is implemented. That is the only thing that I can contribute to this thread.

[BZRKR]

Very nice work!

 

You know, I see "Guardian" and "Overseer" and I can't help but think that this idea could be crossposted to the Praetorian Epic Archetype discussion.

Edited November 19, 2020 by BZRKR
words are hard

[Ruin Mage]

That was a waste of a post then.

Anyway, this seems neat.

[Alchemystic]

2 minutes ago, BZRKR said:

Very nice work!

 

You know, I see "Guardian" and "Overseer" and I can't help but think that this idea could be crossposted to the Praetorian Epic Archetype discussion.

 

The idea behind Overseer is to swap out the three ranged attacks you would normally have access to with melee ones instead. 

 

Beast Mastery would get Savage Melee

Necromancy would get Dark Melee

Ninjas would get Martial Arts (or maybe Ninja Blade?)
Thugs would get Street Justice
Demons can stay as it is, maybe turn Corruption into a melee power?
Mercenaries... uhh... hmm, maybe Rifle Butt, Bayonet and Buckshot?

Robotics would get Elec or Energy melee maybe?

[Solarverse]

8 minutes ago, Shadeknight said:

That was a waste of a post then.

Anyway, this seems neat.

What was a waste of a post exactly?

[Ruin Mage]

Going off about collision and offering nothing else about the thread.

[BZRKR]

2 hours ago, Tyrannical said:

 

The idea behind Overseer is to swap out the three ranged attacks you would normally have access to with melee ones instead. 

 

Beast Mastery would get Savage Melee

Necromancy would get Dark Melee

Ninjas would get Martial Arts (or maybe Ninja Blade?)
Thugs would get Street Justice
Demons can stay as it is, maybe turn Corruption into a melee power?
Mercenaries... uhh... hmm, maybe Rifle Butt, Bayonet and Buckshot?

Robotics would get Elec or Energy melee maybe?

Ahhh yes, Mercs....

Buckshot is not a Melee power, but maybe the hand taser that Malta has? Is there a combat knife attack? Crippling axe kick (like the Council guys use) fits-ish, but does it do too much damage for the Mercenary "Theme" (ha!).

[CrudeVileTerror]

Krav Maga for Mercenaries would be interesting.

[Solarverse]

11 hours ago, Shadeknight said:

Going off about collision and offering nothing else about the thread.

The OP's idea would have a huge impact on it, it was necessary to express that concern. But whatever you say there forum cop. Keep up the good work and maybe they'll make you Hall Monitor!

Edited November 20, 2020 by Solarverse

[AerialAssault]

Sorry, gunna have to skip this idea. No reason, i just felt like being contrarian today.

[Solarverse]

16 minutes ago, AerialAssault said:

Sorry, gunna have to skip this idea. No reason, i just felt like being contrarian today.

Careful, the forum cop will be all over you for that...even though he himself only had "this seems neat" to say about it. Would hate for him to count to three on you or something. That could be bad.

 

 

@Tyrannical
To the OP. Sorry I did not contribute more, but I liked your idea and honestly had nothing to say bad about it and nothing I could add to make it better so I said nothing. I wanted to see what others were going to say about it before saying anything further other than my initial comment...I do that often. However, super forum cop over here kind of forced my hand here so I am actually speaking on this more before I was actually ready to. The only issue I took with it was what I said that ended up getting me a citation from the forum cop over there; and honestly, that is not an issue with your idea directly, but rather an issue with it indirectly. If the Devs were to fix the collision mechanics, I would love to see Unity Melee sets fighting side by side with my Tanks or Stalkers. Once that happened (or if it even happened on the same patch) you would have my support 100%.

Edited November 20, 2020 by Solarverse

[Ruin Mage]

careful there with your snark, solarverse. that's a paddling by the new proclaimed F O R U M C O P.

fear my keyboard strokes.

On topic - I only said it was neat as a show of approval where as it took you about 4 posts to actually give anything except "BUT MUH COLLISION".

Eat a Snickers.

[Solarverse]

5 minutes ago, Shadeknight said:

careful there with your snark, solarverse. that's a paddling by the new proclaimed F O R U M C O P.

fear my keyboard strokes.

On topic - I only said it was neat as a show of approval where as it took you about 4 posts to actually give anything except "BUT MUH COLLISION".

Eat a Snickers.

It's good to know we've both got jokes.  😄

[Ruin Mage]

@Tyrannical

To get us back on topic - how would a non-elemental based Unity look, based on how you designed the other Unity sets?

Edited November 20, 2020 by Shadeknight

[Alchemystic]

Just now, Shadeknight said:

@Tyrannical

To get us back on topic - how would a non-elemental based Unity look, based on how you designed the other Unity sets?

I DONT ANSWER TO YOU, JOHNNY LAW

 

Easiest angle would to probably use Willpower paired with Mental Manipulation and Pain Domination or something.

Mental Unity:

 - Mental Ward: PBAoE version of Mind Over Body

 - High Pain Tolerance: Same power that belongs to Willpower

 - Nullify Pain: Same power that belongs to Pain Domination

 - World of Confusion: Same power that belongs to Mental Manipulation

 - Soothing Ward: New PBAoE power to fill in the gap in resistance (energy, negative, fire, cold)

 - Shield of Will: PBAoE Click version of Indomitable Will/Enforced Morale

 - Reconstruction: Same power that belongs to Willpower

 - Drain Psyche: Same power that belongs to Mental Manipulation

 - Anguishing Cry: Same power that belongs to Pain Domination

 

 

 

 

[Replacement]

You could certainly combine Energy Aura with Force Fields, I bet.  Nature + Regen.  Poison is one balance pass away from being almost melee-worthy as-is.

 

My issue with this approach is that it seems armor-first.  It's easy enough to find an armor set and then find support abilities to fill it out.  But I've seen those armors before.  Four times.  While many would be unviable to launch with (i.e. Storm), I think you would need to come at this with a game plan to eventually port in every Support set because that's what's being requested in the Melee (notable exception: Trick Arrow probably feels out of place on a melee support).

 

But then, @Tyrannical, if you remember some of our previous discussions this, you probably already know my opinion biases towards avoiding direct armor powers when possible.

 

That said, your approach to more rigidly defining what powers should do combats one of the large unsung issues with melee/support: Time spent Supporting.  It's very clear from literally any melee AT subforum that melee players must focus as much of their time on swinging as possible, which means the more passive a Support set, the better.  This is not a good look for a dedicated AT, which your proposal pretty heftily avoids (or at least greatly diminishes).

[Alchemystic]

1 hour ago, Replacement said:

You could certainly combine Energy Aura with Force Fields, I bet.  Nature + Regen.  Poison is one balance pass away from being almost melee-worthy as-is.

 

My issue with this approach is that it seems armor-first.  It's easy enough to find an armor set and then find support abilities to fill it out.  But I've seen those armors before.  Four times.  While many would be unviable to launch with (i.e. Storm), I think you would need to come at this with a game plan to eventually port in every Support set because that's what's being requested in the Melee (notable exception: Trick Arrow probably feels out of place on a melee support).

 

But then, @Tyrannical, if you remember some of our previous discussions this, you probably already know my opinion biases towards avoiding direct armor powers when possible.

 

That said, your approach to more rigidly defining what powers should do combats one of the large unsung issues with melee/support: Time spent Supporting.  It's very clear from literally any melee AT subforum that melee players must focus as much of their time on swinging as possible, which means the more passive a Support set, the better.  This is not a good look for a dedicated AT, which your proposal pretty heftily avoids (or at least greatly diminishes).

 

I think with the addition of a Radiation themed Unity set, and perhaps Force Field and Sonic themed ones (since these have armor granting powers already)

 

That should hopefully have enough powersets to cover the damage resistance spectrum, though the addition of more down the line is always an option!

 

 

Edited November 20, 2020 by Tyrannical

[Solarverse]

I see potential to add Warshades and Peacebringers in this. Warsahdes with AoE Shield Buffs, Recharge Debuffs, AoE Heals/AoE Endurance and +AoE Damage Boosts while Peacebringers Unity having AoE Shield Buffs, -Defense Debuffs, Single Target Heals and AoE Accuracy Boosts as Primaries. Secondaries would combine Melee and Ranged like the others.

[Player2]

Show me a Storm Unity or I pass on supporting this idea.