What would be the best way to keep players retention?

[thunderforce]

20 hours ago, Puma said:

That will literally just drive people away. 

Er... I said the short-term consequences would be drastic.

20 hours ago, Puma said:

I worked hard for my incarnate shifts.  Taking them away is not going to make the game more enjoyable for me. It will make it far less...suddenly making it harder and taking more time to do the same old boring content I've done a million times before. 

You didn't work hard for them for two reasons; you were playing a videogame, which I hope you enjoy, which isn't work; and you can get incarnate level shifts on Homecoming by doing anything at all because the early veteran level rewards give you enough stuff to craft a set. The only remotely challenging part is figuring out the incarnate crafting interface.

 

Taking them away would only make the game harder if you have notoriety set no higher than +1 even in DA (which is effectively -2); otherwise, you could just turn the notoriety down as needed. Frankly, I don't think many characters at level 50 with incarnate powers are going to find fighting -1s hard _at all_.

 

If you really find the game so boring you don't want to spend more time playing it, perhaps you're not the target audience.

Edited December 10, 2020 by thunderforce

[Infinitum]

6 minutes ago, Puma said:

And again, yes...when we're talking about player retention, what other servers are doing is EXACTLY what should be discussed because guess where some of those players who leave might end up?  

They end up where they end up, HC can't nor shouldn't be here to try to please everyone, because thats impossible.

 

What they are doing is stability and balance with additions that make sense and improve fun and playability. 

 

Again... Middle of the road

 

And wherever You go... There you are.

[Monos King]

21 minutes ago, Puma said:

What I actually said was "And honestly, on Cake, with as ridiculously overpowered as you can become, some content STILL ends up with you dying once or twice on a mission, or requires a team to really do.  That will always be the case. "  And it's true. Even with their most powerful set, a new Evolutionary Leap combo mimicking one of the GM's power combos, you can't solo iTrials, etc. They are unlocked to try, but they are pretty much impossible solo.     

Ohhhh I see. The challenge exists because 24+ people events might not be soloable. You, alone, will struggle to do what was intended to be impossible, so it's something we at HC are all good to draw inspiration from.

 

I'm not even sure what you were trying to convey by acknowledging how insanely OP cake characters are, but if certain undertakings are even on the table, discussion of balance can be dismissed.

 

My point is, cake philosophy is completely incompatible with any server that wants to maintain balance. If you want to say "we should crank out more unique powers and ATs" that I can get behind, but suggesting to any extent that the degree of performance over there is something that should be replicated here, which follows the format and principles of an MMO, is way over nonsense. When you are that powerful, it immediately becomes self-centric. People don't like not being able to solo, the adverse applies. They like to feel needed in groups. People already see incarnates to be contentious, what you're asking for won't float.

Edited December 10, 2020 by Monos King

[Monos King]

7 minutes ago, thunderforce said:

Taking them away would only make the game harder if you have notoriety set no higher than +1 even in DA (which is effectively -2); otherwise, you could just turn the notoriety down as needed. Frankly, I don't think many characters at level 50 with incarnate powers are going to find fighting -1s hard _at all_.

So, actually, I'm not down with removing level shifts. At least not until MMs are fixed, to which then I would be more receptive. People forget how devastating playing upper content was for MMs back when pets could be facing up to +6 enemies...MMs were relegated to depleted corruptors. Alpha was a real life saver there.

[thunderforce]

Just now, Monos King said:

So, actually, I'm not down with removing level shifts. At least not until MMs are fixed, to which then I would be more receptive. People forget how devastating playing upper content was for MMs back when pets could be facing up to +6 enemies...MMs were relegated to depleted corruptors. Alpha was a real life saver there.

I think there's two things going on here; yes, MMs struggle more with +4 missions than other characters, and yes, that should be addressed... but I don't think the way to do that is to cut the top off the difficulty slider so it effectively goes from -4 to +1.

[Monos King]

Just now, thunderforce said:

I think there's two things going on here; yes, MMs struggle more with +4 missions than other characters, and yes, that should be addressed... but I don't think the way to do that is to cut the top off the difficulty slider so it effectively goes from -4 to +1.

Yeah I don't know about all that either, just something to keep in mind though.

[Puma]

6 hours ago, Monos King said:

Ohhhh I see. The challenge exists because 24+ people events might not be soloable. You, alone, will struggle to do what was intended to be impossible, so it's something we at HC are all good to draw inspiration from.

 

I'm not even sure what you were trying to convey by acknowledging how insanely OP cake characters are, but if certain undertakings are even on the table, discussion of balance can be dismissed.

 

My point is, cake philosophy is completely incompatible with any server that wants to maintain balance. If you want to say "we should crank out more unique powers and ATs" that I can get behind, but suggesting to any extent that the degree of performance over there is something that should be replicated here, which follows the format and principles of an MMO, is way over nonsense. When you are that powerful, it immediately becomes self-centric. People don't like not being able to solo, the adverse applies. They like to feel needed in groups. People already see incarnates to be contentious, what you're asking for won't float.

My point, which it appears you agree with, is that we'd be better served "cranking out more unique powers and ATs" than spending our time focusing on reconfiguring powers and ATs we already have because "balance".  Even if we threw balance out the window, like Cake, which I don't think we should, the game would still be enjoyable for a lot of players because of increased diversity we have in creating characters.  And still require people to team up for some of the content, plus a larger players would still team even if they were powerful enough to solo.  Just like now on HC.  

 

But again, we shouldn't throw balance out the window, but I think we should focus far more on putting out new things we already know get people to play: new powersets and archetypes. We don't need to pretend that this game, or the server, is dishing out things that require incredible skill or coordination to pull off. It hasn't for years.  That ship has sailed, but there is still a LOT that can be offered by expanding player choice in powers, costumes, and archetypes that would keep players logging in for years more. 

 

I would also expand on another thing this server does well and actually has made easier than Cake. Sanctuary, and others:  base building and RP options.  I'd love some other RP maps besides Pocket D, and I'm not really even an RPer. A syfy night club is cool, but what about an RP research library, or an RP mystic lair, or an RP Forest,or an RP apartment complex where each door leads to your own "base/apartment" etc.  Base building and RP is one area HC shines compared to the other servers I've seen, and adding to it while you also add to the variety of character types and concepts you make would go hand in hand. 

Edited December 11, 2020 by Puma

[Monos King]

8 hours ago, Puma said:

We don't need to pretend that this game, or the server, is dishing out things that require incredible skill or coordination to pull off. It hasn't for years.  That ship has sailed, but there is still a LOT that can be offered by expanding player choice in powers, costumes, and archetypes that would keep players logging in for years more. 

That's a bit of a hot take (or at least something many don't like to acknowledge) but I actually agree completely. However, I'd be weary about acting too much with that in mind. 

 

Each server has it's own philosophy, with a resulting unique quality, that gives it it's appeal. Rebirth is purist, Cake is creatively libertine. There is even another server that's acting essentially exactly how you might want HC to adapt in Thunderspy, but you don't see many people there despite their admittedly awesome ideas. How HC relates to these servers is why @Infinitum called HC middle ground, because over here we have installed a great many qol and performance improvements that gently walks the line of power creep but still retains the traditional sense of balance.

 

HC is an expansion of the original game through and through, and while certain things I consider too much, it is apparently still what people want. Even if it seems like adding a few new cool ATs would be a total plus, if it undermines existing options it'll just anger folks, who feel like their iconic characters have little role or, as in the case of TW, end up with a nerf which will make people playing the new powers angry as well. I believe you are saying that we should embrace that reality of high performance to some extent to avoid that, and shift philosophy, but the problem there is that if we did that it would just be an upwards spiral until we actually were at a cake-esque level of power. People would want their powers to be buffed to compete with newly buffed or newly released powers, because of the philosophy change that would be legitimate, and this would go on and on because there will always be new powers coming out and there will always have to be a weakest power. And, anyone who dislikes the surge of power we find ourselves with will not be retained, they will leave immediately.

 

8 hours ago, Puma said:

plus a larger players would still team even if they were powerful enough to solo.  Just like now on HC.  

Except even now on HC people find the gathering of gods to be an extreme issue. It shows up on the forums every say, even in this very thread people are talking about nerfing incarnates. So, something to be weary of still.

 

It seems I do agree with the basics of your ideas for retention, bases especially, but it'd need to be metered. I would love to see really experimental ideas consistently dumped on the test servers for us to shift through and perfect, even if some are pulled. I think that could work. But if they move in the direction of ignoring balance, it will not. 

[Puma]

9 hours ago, Monos King said:

 

 

Each server has it's own philosophy, with a resulting unique quality, that gives it it's appeal. Rebirth is purist, Cake is creatively libertine. There is even another server that's acting essentially exactly how you might want HC to adapt in Thunderspy, but you don't see many people there despite their admittedly awesome ideas. How HC relates to these servers is why @Infinitum called HC middle ground, because over here we have installed a great many qol and performance improvements that gently walks the line of power creep but still retains the traditional sense of balance.

 

HC is an expansion of the original game through and through, and while certain things I consider too much, it is apparently still what people want. Even if it seems like adding a few new cool ATs would be a total plus, if it undermines existing options it'll just anger folks, who feel like their iconic characters have little role or, as in the case of TW, end up with a nerf which will make people playing the new powers angry as well. I believe you are saying that we should embrace that reality of high performance to some extent to avoid that, and shift philosophy, but the problem there is that if we did that it would just be an upwards spiral until we actually were at a cake-esque level of power. People would want their powers to be buffed to compete with newly buffed or newly released powers, because of the philosophy change that would be legitimate, and this would go on and on because there will always be new powers coming out and there will always have to be a weakest power. And, anyone who dislikes the surge of power we find ourselves with will not be retained, they will leave immediately.

 

Except even now on HC people find the gathering of gods to be an extreme issue. It shows up on the forums every say, even in this very thread people are talking about nerfing incarnates. So, something to be weary of still.

 

It seems I do agree with the basics of your ideas for retention, bases especially, but it'd need to be metered. I would love to see really experimental ideas consistently dumped on the test servers for us to shift through and perfect, even if some are pulled. I think that could work. But if they move in the direction of ignoring balance, it will not. 

Thanks for the well written response, Minos.  A few things: 

 

I didn't bring up Thunderspy because I didnt want to just keep name dropping other servers, but I would say they are a middle ground approach, but slightly more toward cake's side.   I would rank it   Rebirth---HC----Thunderspy-------------Cake.  I hesitate to put Rebirth on there because as I see and understand it, it really isnt what I would consider a "developing" server.  It's expanding story but that's it, right?  They're still with issue 24. 
 

When you say we should "embrace the reality of high performance" I think that's overstating it.  I think we shouldn't let fear of overperformance paralyze us, or be a main driver in goals. It should be considered, and clearly you don't want to make new sets or archetypes that overperform on purpose, but you don't need to be so worried about them doing so that it takes us several months to make one new powerset or archetype, and then in the end be left with one that isn't super impressive or unique, anyway.  And I do think that happens here to some extent.  And I say that as someone who has helped test the development of Sentinels, Savage Melee, Sonic secondary for blasters, worked with one of the Devs in trying to write a new contact  and missions (albeit briefly) etc.  I'm not just some schmuck who showed up out of nowhere and said "Why isnt this stuff as cool as next door!??!!".  I'm absolutely committed to this server, its devs, and the community at large.  

 

But what you said here: " but the problem there is that if we did that it would just be an upwards spiral until we actually were at a cake-esque level of power. People would want their powers to be buffed to compete with newly buffed or newly released powers, because of the philosophy change that would be legitimate, and this would go on and on because there will always be new powers coming out and there will always have to be a weakest power" is something I TOTALLY agree with, but it works both ways.   That's partly my point.  This game has NEVER has truly equal performance among sets, and it never will.  Look at the testing for the latest patch and you see LOTS of time people spent testing sets against other sets as rebalancing was done, and Galaxy Brain posting tier lists of performance as things shift, and in the end we still ended up with major discrepancies, only now who was at the top, middle and bottom were shifted.  So I would argue a LOT of that was...maybe not wasted energy, but definitely not optimized energy.  Sure, TW is a little less of a high end overperformer. It's a little more vanilla now.  If someone can show me that the number of Titan Weapons characters being run to 50 changes dramatically now that it's been rebalanced, I'll be willing to alter my view.  But I doubt it will change much.  People will make it to test it out like we always do, and some will stick with it while others will move on, just like before.  The "shine" it DID have wasn't enough for us to see nothing but Titan Weapons toons then, and the LACK of that shine and slightly more vanillaness of it wont suddenly make everyone want to run one now.  But I worry that that's what's happening: energy is being spent on things becoming more vanilla (see blaster changes, too) and less unique because "balance", and that pay off, while there one, is kind of small.   If that same energy had been put in to adding a couple more new powersets, or an archetype, etc without letting the fear of imbalance make us spend months hammer those into vanilla status as well, I think the payoff would have been far greater when it comes to players spending time logging in to play them. 
 
No, you don't want to make everyone have access to Tyrant level powers.  But I don't think you need to really spend the majority of an update be "we rebalanced stuff" either.  I say, look at our the game's strengths and how they fit our server, and in my opinion there are 3: 

1. The game's greatest strength is the individuality and uniqueness players have in creating their OWN characters and exploring the world with them.  That diversity is greater than any other MMO, and it isn't just "this power is colored this way, this one is this way" but in mechanics, performance, etc.  That is a GOOD thing, because each new character plays and feels differently.  So you can make, literally, dozens of blasters who all play differently before you even begin to branch out to tankers, or doms, etc.  

 

2.  Going hand in hand with the above, the community:  We have a larger player base than any other sever, and also a sizeable RP community.  Anything we add that makes #1 bigger will also make number 2 better, as RPers get to make more specific, unique characters from a writing perspective, and the general community gets new combos to try.  

 

3.   The knowledge and skill or our Devs.  They truly know the code, they know the system, and they work very hard.  I want to see their energies going to the things that will pay off the most.    

 

 

I do think we should move away from major "issues" and move more toward small updates.  Thats what I'm seeing happen on other servers and honestly, it does keep you engaged.  When every other week you have SOMETHING new come out, even if it's a small QoL update, it feels like more development is happening than there really is, which keeps you engaged.  

  

   

 

 

Edited December 11, 2020 by Puma

[golstat2003]

9 hours ago, Monos King said:

That's a bit of a hot take (or at least something many don't like to acknowledge) but I actually agree completely. However, I'd be weary about acting too much with that in mind. 

 

Each server has it's own philosophy, with a resulting unique quality, that gives it it's appeal. Rebirth is purist, Cake is creatively libertine. There is even another server that's acting essentially exactly how you might want HC to adapt in Thunderspy, but you don't see many people there despite their admittedly awesome ideas. How HC relates to these servers is why @Infinitum called HC middle ground, because over here we have installed a great many qol and performance improvements that gently walks the line of power creep but still retains the traditional sense of balance.

 

HC is an expansion of the original game through and through, and while certain things I consider too much, it is apparently still what people want. Even if it seems like adding a few new cool ATs would be a total plus, if it undermines existing options it'll just anger folks, who feel like their iconic characters have little role or, as in the case of TW, end up with a nerf which will make people playing the new powers angry as well. I believe you are saying that we should embrace that reality of high performance to some extent to avoid that, and shift philosophy, but the problem there is that if we did that it would just be an upwards spiral until we actually were at a cake-esque level of power. People would want their powers to be buffed to compete with newly buffed or newly released powers, because of the philosophy change that would be legitimate, and this would go on and on because there will always be new powers coming out and there will always have to be a weakest power. And, anyone who dislikes the surge of power we find ourselves with will not be retained, they will leave immediately.

 

Except even now on HC people find the gathering of gods to be an extreme issue. It shows up on the forums every say, even in this very thread people are talking about nerfing incarnates. So, something to be weary of still.

 

It seems I do agree with the basics of your ideas for retention, bases especially, but it'd need to be metered. I would love to see really experimental ideas consistently dumped on the test servers for us to shift through and perfect, even if some are pulled. I think that could work. But if they move in the direction of ignoring balance, it will not. 

I would be wary of the echo chamber of the forums. I've found when saying some of the opinions here in the forums in game, most times folks don't agree.

 

Many folks aren't looking for the game to get any harder. It mainly seems to be something on the forums mostly.

[Infinitum]

5 minutes ago, Puma said:

It should be considered, and clearly you don't want to make new sets or archetypes that overperform on purpose, but you don't need to be so worried about them doing so that it takes us several months to make one new powerset or archetype, and in the end you're left with one that isn't super impressive, either.  And I do think that happens here to some extent.

Nah you absolutely need to be worried about pushing something out overpowered, taking something away is harder than adding more to it - just look at the EBFPC threads.

 

8 minutes ago, Puma said:

And I say that as someone who has helped test the development of Sentinels, Savage Melee, Sonic secondary for blasters, worked with the Devs in trying to write a new contact mission (albeit briefly) etc.  I'm not just some schmuck who showed up out of nowhere and said "Why isnt this stuff as cool as next door!??!!".  I'm absolutely committed to this server, its devs, and the community at large.  

But honestly thats exactly what you are acting like here.  If you were in CB you see the painstaking detail that is gone through to make sure everything works, everything is balanced, and everything gels with the rest of the flow ofnthe game.  This isnt amateur hour, this is professional level stuff with a volunteer staff.  So if you were there you should known this.

 

12 minutes ago, Puma said:

That's partly my point.  This game has NEVER has truly equal performance among sets, and it never will.  Look at the testing for the latest patch and you see LOTS of time people spent testing sets against other sets as rebalancing was done, and Galaxy Brain posting tier lists of performance as things shift, and in the end we still ended up with major discrepancies, only now who was at the top, middle and bottom were shifted.  So I would argue a LOT of that was...maybe not wasted energy, but definitely not optimized energy.

TW is still a top performer if not the top once fully optimized.  GBs testing identified the low performers also - keep this in mind - so know those sets are very likely to see some love soon because of those tests.  Thats hardly not optimized use of his time.

 

Not to mention most of the sets are within a few seconds of each other from top to the bottom minus the top performers.  That's as balanced as we have ever been - and they all work well.  Can you say mission accomplished HC?

 

And also thank you @Galaxy Brain.

17 minutes ago, Puma said:

But I worry that that's what's happening: energy is being spent on things becoming more vanilla (see blaster changes, too) and less unique because "balance", and that pay off, while there one, is kind of small.   If that same energy had been put in to adding a couple more new powersets, or an archetype, etc without letting the fear of imbalance make us spend months hammer those into vanilla status as well, I think the payoff would have been far greater when it comes to players spending time logging in to play them. 

You keep saying vanilla, but thats incorrect.  Balance does not mean vanilla.

 

We are getting truly unique and diverse playstyles.

 

Take melee for instance New EM is the king of ST again, but has serviceable AOE.  TW is likely still the king of AOE and it now flows better and is easier to use - thats from in game feedback with pugs.  Nothing plays identical but at the end you get a similar result overall, I would call that balanced and diverse.  A lot of care went into that and again its not amateur hour.

23 minutes ago, Puma said:

I do think we should move away from major "issues" and move more toward small updates.  Thats what I'm seeing happen on other servers and honestly, it does keep you engaged.  When every other week you have SOMETHING new come out, even if it's a small QoL update, it feels like more development is happening than there really is, which keeps you engaged.  

well its a good thing you arent in charge then IMO because i like the fact HC is willing to tackle the hard stuff so we can have a more stable game long term.

 

And again this isnt the other servers, what they do is irrelevant here as it should be.

 

Not saying there isn't cool stuff out there, but HC is the contender doing it the right way so the cooler stuff will be even cooler and more stable once they implement it without ridiculous iWin buttons on every power.

[Monos King]

19 minutes ago, golstat2003 said:

I would be wary of the echo chamber of the forums. I've found when saying some of the opinions here in the forums in game, most times folks don't agree.

That's definitely true. I try to go on general chat and discord more often than here (those are actually where I get feedback on my thread ideas before I post them). Forum people are definitely more vocal about nerfs though, as casual players are usually more indifferent to the development process. 

 

33 minutes ago, Puma said:

If that same energy had been put in to adding a couple more new powersets, or an archetype, etc without letting the fear of imbalance make us spend months hammer those into vanilla status as well, I think the payoff would have been far greater when it comes to players spending time logging in to play them. 

I disagree with your use of the term vanilla, as I feel it unjustly undermines the purpose behind balancing. I don't think you give the efforts enough credit. I assume you mean that unique qualities are dampened, but that really isn't the case. Take this update. For the pursuit of balance, a powerset was strengthened and proliferated, another was empowered to true greatness, and one was revised to lesser, but more intuitive, performance. Doing that isn't easy, and the pay-off for making iconic powers playable again goes a long way for retention and enjoyment. However...

Would a new AT or power have captured hearts quicker? Yeah, probably. But only because I assume it would be in line with HCs philosophy. Otherwise the aforementioned maladies would transpire. 

 

The effort in revisiting old powersets, bug fixing, creating new Story Arcs, and maintaining balance is what separates HC from some other servers and differentiates it from what are essentially sandboxes. They add to the immersive factor of those who don't just want to play a game, but feel involved in it. RPers like more stories. There's also a level of professionalism in trying to improve so much what already was, simply because people requested it. I think you need to understand that you're getting both because of these philosophies: you can trust that what you like won't be forgotten, but you won't be seeing new things fuming about either. 

 

That being said, something we've agreed on from the start is that of course, new ATs and powers would be frisky, fun and surely done. If you have any ideas to make that a reality compatible with the process the devs have now, we'd be a step closer in the direction you want. I've already said just being more free with what they might throw on beta could be worthwhile trying, letting us sort of talk things into development, there might be some ways to facilitate the process further on our end.  

[golstat2003]

I think the issue of player retention is a tricky one. What might keep one player (or drive another away), varies from player to player.

 

It will take a careful balance of new stuff, fixes, and balancing things out.

 

And folks have to realize that not everything they do will be something you like or currently want.

 

For instance they just released two new story arcs. I don't really care for them after having played them, but that's fine. I'm glad they were made as there has been a drought of lower level content for years. I've been asking for more higher level content. Others may not feel that is as important as balancing. (To be clear I don't think balancing is more important that new content at all as I don't think there are nearly as many folks worried about that as the forums portray.)

 

Bottom line is everyone won't always get what they want. Especially with the size of this team. And we need to keep our expectations realistic.

 

 

[Tahliah]

On 12/9/2020 at 6:19 PM, spartan52 said:

To me the badge system needs to be revamped so you can see your progress and maybe even see what you are missing. Something small like a progress bar makes a huge difference!

You can see your badge progress via the Badges tab on the Nav bar.  There are progress bars for every badge listed.  You can see how many kills you have/need for defeat badges and how many requirements you are missing on the others.  Granted, it won't tell you exactly what you are missing on the badges that require you to get, for example, all the exploration badges for a zone or for completing badges that require numerous elements.  While it won't tell you exactly what you are missing, if you have completed six or of seven requirements for a badge, it will tell you what the seven are, and you can see what your earned badges are, so you can figure out which one you are missing. 

Edited December 11, 2020 by Tahliah

[Tahliah]

On 12/10/2020 at 7:04 AM, oedipus_tex said:

There are subtle way to phase out the incarnate abilities using carrots instead of sticks. 

Noooo! I love my incarnate powers and would hate to lose them via carrot or stick.

 

That said, I do avoid using my incarnate powers when doing "regular" content (not DA or iTrials) because it just feels . . . wrong.  To me.   If I could turn off my level shift for regular content, I would do so in most circumstances (there have been times,--on pug PI radio teams, for example--where I do use my incarnate powers just because the team is so  . . . um, in need.), but generally speaking, it's not fun to steamroll over everything in two seconds flat.  Specifically speaking, there are times when that is exactly what i am the mood for or when I appreciate saving the time on Shadow Shard TFs.   Heh.

 

I think the biggest issue with incarnates is not that they exist (because fun!) but that they were made available outside of incarnate game content.  I wouldn't mind seeing that gone, with incarnates and level shifts only available for incarnate content.  But for that to work effectively and with minimal uproar, there would have to be more incarnate content.  Currently, there is only DA for a handful of story arcs and the iTrials for incarnates, and that does limit player ability to flex their awesome.  More incarnate-level content (more mission arcs, some TFs, a couple more trials) would be so amazing that I probably wouldn't do "regular" content on my incarnates every again (except to badge, but in flashbacks, you lose your incarnate powers anyway unless doing late level content, so that is moot).

 

Okay, so all that said, that's just me.  If people love the access to incarnates in the regular game and would hate to see it gone, shrug.  That's okay, too.  We aren't forced to use our (castable, anyway) incarnate powers and the level shift available there is only +1, so . . . .

[golstat2003]

6 hours ago, Tahliah said:

Noooo! I love my incarnate powers and would hate to lose them via carrot or stick.

 

That said, I do avoid using my incarnate powers when doing "regular" content (not DA or iTrials) because it just feels . . . wrong.  To me.   If I could turn off my level shift for regular content, I would do so in most circumstances (there have been times,--on pug PI radio teams, for example--where I do use my incarnate powers just because the team is so  . . . um, in need.), but generally speaking, it's not fun to steamroll over everything in two seconds flat.  Specifically speaking, there are times when that is exactly what i am the mood for or when I appreciate saving the time on Shadow Shard TFs.   Heh.

 

I think the biggest issue with incarnates is not that they exist (because fun!) but that they were made available outside of incarnate game content.  I wouldn't mind seeing that gone, with incarnates and level shifts only available for incarnate content.  But for that to work effectively and with minimal uproar, there would have to be more incarnate content.  Currently, there is only DA for a handful of story arcs and the iTrials for incarnates, and that does limit player ability to flex their awesome.  More incarnate-level content (more mission arcs, some TFs, a couple more trials) would be so amazing that I probably wouldn't do "regular" content on my incarnates every again (except to badge, but in flashbacks, you lose your incarnate powers anyway unless doing late level content, so that is moot).

 

Okay, so all that said, that's just me.  If people love the access to incarnates in the regular game and would hate to see it gone, shrug.  That's okay, too.  We aren't forced to use our (castable, anyway) incarnate powers and the level shift available there is only +1, so . . . .

Honestly they would have to have been drastically more incarnate content at the start if we were told they could not have been used in regular level 50 content

 

cause if not I would never have bothered with incarnates at all.

[Puma]

On 12/11/2020 at 9:47 AM, Monos King said:

 

I disagree with your use of the term vanilla, as I feel it unjustly undermines the purpose behind balancing. I don't think you give the efforts enough credit. I assume you mean that unique qualities are dampened, but that really isn't the case. Take this update. For the pursuit of balance, a powerset was strengthened and proliferated, another was empowered to true greatness, and one was revised to lesser, but more intuitive, performance. Doing that isn't easy, and the pay-off for making iconic powers playable again goes a long way for retention and enjoyment. However...

Would a new AT or power have captured hearts quicker? Yeah, probably. But only because I assume it would be in line with HCs philosophy. Otherwise the aforementioned maladies would transpire. 

 

I disagree.  I think you just sugar coated it to suit your argument. "More intuitive" in that it's much more like all of the other sets?  As in...vanilla is more intuitive and offers more widespread appeal than Cherry Garcia precisely because it doesn't have much uniqueness and specialized appeal.   And what happened with blaster secondaries is a perfect example of making them all much closer by gutting what made them unique and powerful when done correctly.  

 

 

[Infinitum]

8 hours ago, Puma said:

I disagree.  I think you just sugar coated it to suit your argument. "More intuitive" in that it's much more like all of the other sets?  As in...vanilla is more intuitive and offers more widespread appeal than Cherry Garcia precisely because it doesn't have much uniqueness and specialized appeal.   And what happened with blaster secondaries is a perfect example of making them all much closer by gutting what made them unique and powerful when done correctly.  

 

 

Nah you are off here, a balancing point still doesn't mean vanilla.  Just because sets performance have similar numbers, does not mean they achieve the numbers the same way.

 

I am primarily a melee'er the closest to similar is street justice and Super strength.  But they are all drastically different in their target capacity to dmg types, to how they achieve optimal damage.

 

If You are comparing anything to Cake - which you are - everything balanced will seem vanilla to you.

 

The retention to perma godmode iWinzNOW is really bad - like a star going supernova - sure its bright and awesome but oh look its gone and NICE a black hole to swallow us up.

Edited December 15, 2020 by Infinitum

[Monos King]

13 hours ago, Puma said:

I think you just sugar coated it to suit your argument. "More intuitive" in that it's much more like all of the other sets?

Not quite. I suggest you look into the existing complaints about titan weapons before this recent issue - despite it's superior performance, there were quite a few...all repeating the same notes. These were not issues I personally found meaningful, but evidently I was not the majority. @Galaxy Brain is familiar with the dilemma if you find difficulty investigating.

Edited December 15, 2020 by Monos King

[Zeraphia]

My vote has always been just more endgame content, that's probably been stated in this forum 6x over by people, but it's true. Many players feel like that the new stuff is cool, like with the new powersets and costume changes, and we all greatly appreciate that. More end-game content in the form of Task Forces/iTrials or group events that encourage community chatting and meeting is always a net positive, we've gotten several content updates for lower content and unfortunately it just feels like "well, I'm 50 now, so I guess this is just another Ouro arc." For others who go 1-50, this obviously isn't the case, but there are a lot of people that are underrepresented on the forums who play at 50 and just enjoy having the scope of their powers. 

[Dragon Crush]

19 minutes ago, Zeraphia said:

My vote has always been just more endgame content, that's probably been stated in this forum 6x over by people, but it's true. Many players feel like that the new stuff is cool, like with the new powersets and costume changes, and we all greatly appreciate that. More end-game content in the form of Task Forces/iTrials or group events that encourage community chatting and meeting is always a net positive, we've gotten several content updates for lower content and unfortunately it just feels like "well, I'm 50 now, so I guess this is just another Ouro arc." For others who go 1-50, this obviously isn't the case, but there are a lot of people that are underrepresented on the forums who play at 50 and just enjoy having the scope of their powers. 

I mostly agree that this would be good, though I disagree with the wording of "endgame content" since for me at least it caries the connotation of requiring "best gear" and fully incarnated with optimized powersets to have a shot, though that could just be having played other games with constant endgame grind.

But more trials and task forces to encourage getting 1 or more full groups together to do something would be nice, and if incarnate will offer a benefit beyond making it faceroll easy but not being absolutely required to have full incarnate abilities, well that would be a bonus.

[Zeraphia]

1 hour ago, Dragon Crush said:

I mostly agree that this would be good, though I disagree with the wording of "endgame content" since for me at least it caries the connotation of requiring "best gear" and fully incarnated with optimized powersets to have a shot, though that could just be having played other games with constant endgame grind.

But more trials and task forces to encourage getting 1 or more full groups together to do something would be nice, and if incarnate will offer a benefit beyond making it faceroll easy but not being absolutely required to have full incarnate abilities, well that would be a bonus.

My thoughts were more along the lines of "create more things that are similar to ITF/LGTF/MLTF/LRSF" that are new and interesting end-game content, rather than extraneously difficult challenges, but I think there's a market for both. However at this point, I don't think most people care about the distinction in difficulty, they just want to enjoy their character's fullest potential and have fun with that rather than have content that makes you exemp down. I'd take content for 50 in any capacity that it's offered at this point.

[golstat2003]

1 hour ago, Dragon Crush said:

I mostly agree that this would be good, though I disagree with the wording of "endgame content" since for me at least it caries the connotation of requiring "best gear" and fully incarnated with optimized powersets to have a shot, though that could just be having played other games with constant endgame grind.

But more trials and task forces to encourage getting 1 or more full groups together to do something would be nice, and if incarnate will offer a benefit beyond making it faceroll easy but not being absolutely required to have full incarnate abilities, well that would be a bonus.

They can create both stuff that is a level higher (aka, yes you do need to be more in line with where they need you to be when doing the later trails) and stuff that's more beginner like the BAF that can help unlock the early parts of incarnacy. (not sure if word) They can do both.

[golstat2003]

35 minutes ago, Zeraphia said:

My thoughts were more along the lines of "create more things that are similar to ITF/LGTF/MLTF/LRSF" that are new and interesting end-game content, rather than extraneously difficult challenges, but I think there's a market for both. However at this point, I don't think most people care about the distinction in difficulty, they just want to enjoy their character's fullest potential and have fun with that rather than have content that makes you exemp down. I'd take content for 50 in any capacity that it's offered at this point.

This. I'm pretty much done with lower level content. I'd like to use my full EARNED abilities in content. Shape or call that however you like.

[Infinitum]

2 hours ago, golstat2003 said:

This. I'm pretty much done with lower level content. I'd like to use my full EARNED abilities in content. Shape or call that however you like.

Yeah I'm with you 100%. But on the same token the early game has to be reinvigorated also.  I like the new I27 TFs for that.