Minor ITF Changes

[krj12]

1.  Fix Sister Solaris so she can be led to the altar without everyone turning off group and/or individual stealth powers.  Not unique to this TF, this would be nice across the game.

 

2.  Fix mission 3 mission objective so that it reads "Defeat Requiem" instead of "Defeat General".   Romulus gets his own objective line, so why not the other AV?  

 

3.  Occasionally, ground targeting just doesn't want to work on the bridge in mission 3.

 

4.  Not unique to this TF, but could you fix it so that everyone on the team can click on a mission entrance door at the same time?   

Very annoying having to wait for the closing door animation to conclude before I'm allowed to click.

 

[JKPhage]

1. That's just a side-effect of NPCs and stealth powers. Unfortunately I don't think there's anything that can be done for it without re-writing the entire game from the ground up.

 

2. You may not recall this, but when the ITF debuted, the big reveal that the 5th Column was back after they were thought completely stamped out forever, much less that they had a presence in Cimerora via time travel was a GIGANTIC reveal, and it didn't come until you walked through the huge valley, around a corner and were met with two giant bronze Mekmen and humongous 5th Column banners. Requiem being there too was also a huge reveal. It's done this way intentionally for the presentation. We don't *know* that Requiem is there until we find him. This doesn't need to be changed.

 

3. That I got nothing for, but if it's gone this long then it's probably something that seems simple to fix but in actuality would require a ludicrous amount of work for a teeny tiny profit, so it might be one of those things that the original devs just said "Unfortunately you'll just have to live with that."

 

4. This would be highly useful, though I'm not sure how it would be fixed unless they somehow disentangle the physical door object from the "click here to enter" object, though in doing so they might be unable to make doors swing open in response to characters entering as they are no longer connected. That said, it always struck me as odd that if they're so entangled that one can't, ya know, click on the open door object to get in as well. I don't know enough about the coding/mechanics/game structure to comment further, but I wouldn't mind if this was looked into at least to see if anything *can* be done. I've always referred to the Cimerora gates as the true final boss of the TF.

Edited December 10, 2020 by JKPhage

[Lazarillo]

Better yet: make the Shadow Cysts in mission 2 constantly spawn Nictus upon being aggroed, like all good Shadow Cysts should. >=D

Edited December 10, 2020 by Lazarillo

[MsSmart]

Great list of suggestions...

 

The stealth thing is not treated with consistency, in some missions an NPC can not deal with stealth powers and follow, on others the NPC has no problem at all following a character that has stealth on and at very high levels.

 

So it seems to me, it may not be a complex enterprise to make the game consistent, in fact I would suggest if your character has area stealth giving powers (steamy mist for instance) it also provides for the guest NPC, it only makes sense.

 

And the door thing, seems to be a game wide issue, would be nice if once the door is open, you click and go through without having to open the door. I am not going to make guesses if it is a lot of work or not to fix, that is a dev's decision based that they actually know the code, but it is a nice QoL.

 

Sue

[Ghost]

Abso-freakin-lutely agree with #4

[Grindingsucks]

No objections to the OP's suggestions, but if I were going to add my own suggestion, it would be to shorten the length of the task force.  The thing is just too *bleeping* long.  It's got a lot of fun elements, but it's too exhausting for me to want to do more than once or twice.  I avoid them, now, for that very reason.

 

 

[krj12]

One more thing to add to the list:

In the last mission,  Romulus seems to have virtually no resists to knockdown, completely inconsistent with the prior mission.  You would think infused with Nictus power, he would be more powerful across the board, not less.

 

 

[krj12]

6 minutes ago, Grindingsucks said:

No objections to the OP's suggestions, but if I were going to add my own suggestion, it would be to shorten the length of the task force.  The thing is just too *bleeping* long.  It's got a lot of fun elements, but it's too exhausting for me to want to do more than once or twice.  I avoid them, now, for that very reason.

 

 

I think this is one of the shorter TFs.  On a good speed team, it can be done in 15 minutes or less.   The typical kill most duration, from my experience, is between 45 minutes and an hour, on a really good team kill most is about 35 mins.

[Grindingsucks]

I don't do speed runs.  But, no, it's not one of the shorter TF's.  If you aren't doing a speed run, they go upwards of an hour to an hour and a half.

 

A TF/SF, going at a normal pace, ought to take about 20 to 30 minutes (this is just my opinion, I don't want to be dogmatic about  it.  Many others may feel differently).

[Rathulfr]

14 minutes ago, Grindingsucks said:

I don't do speed runs.  But, no, it's not one of the shorter TF's.  If you aren't doing a speed run, they go upwards of an hour to an hour and a half.

 

A TF/SF, going at a normal pace, ought to take about 20 to 30 minutes (this is just my opinion, I don't want to be dogmatic about  it.  Many others may feel differently).

 

/em shakes his grumpy old man fist ineffectually.

Back in my day... TFs were multi session affairs you had to do with the same group... And we liked it!

/em harrumphs and unwraps a butterscotch hard candy from the crystal bowl on the side table next to the ancient divan.

 

[Grindingsucks]

Hee, hee.  Well, multi-session might be okay, actually.  If you take breaks between missions, and do them over a course of a few days, that would be less exhausting.  The ones I've done (granted, I've only participated in ITF's 3 times) they always run all the missions back to back.  It's also possible my groups were just unusually slow, I suppose, so there could be that.

 

 

[Dragon Crush]

Yeah, I'm reading 20-30 minutes for non-speed run and wondering what game you're playing, then remembering all the changes that were made to TFs over the years. Still seems rather quick for a non-speed run, but suppose not totally insane. 

 

edit to add - 

I personally think 45 minutes to an hour should be the sweet spot for non-speed TFs, but don't mind terribly doing the long ones from time to time.

Edited December 12, 2020 by Dragon Crush

[Lazarillo]

1 hour ago, Grindingsucks said:

A TF/SF, going at a normal pace, ought to take about 20 to 30 minutes

How many really do?  The only one I can think of that's that short without speedrunning is Yin, and even then 30 minutes is a good run that probably stealth/TPs the team on the last mission.

[Eclipse.]

1 hour ago, Grindingsucks said:

I don't do speed runs.  But, no, it's not one of the shorter TF's.  If you aren't doing a speed run, they go upwards of an hour to an hour and a half.

 

A TF/SF, going at a normal pace, ought to take about 20 to 30 minutes (this is just my opinion, I don't want to be dogmatic about  it.  Many others may feel differently).

We've had very different experiences with ITFs, I feel like most "Kill Most" +4 ITF runs I've done (with pugs) are in the 30-40 minute range. I can't think of a task force that is consistently shorter than ITFs, with a party that is mostly higher levels, even if you're not doing a speed run. Even Katie Hannon often takes longer than ITF if she bugs or runs away in my experience.

I think ITF's real issue from a time-perspective is that it was originally designed with the largest level disparity in the game. It's pretty middle of the pack as far as how long it took to run, At least on live & Blue side based on Merit Rewards*, 13 that are expected to take longer, 5 that take less. The difference between a group with a lot of 35's and a group of all 50's is pretty massive, though. MOST task forces are expected to be well over an hour on blue side.

I'm curious if you played primarily on Red side on live, though, where all the taskforces were much shorter affairs (ALL BUT ONE of the redside task forces are  shorter or extremely close in merit rewards to the ITF)


Edit:

It'd be interesting to see what the new Merit rewards would be [potentially] for  various taskforces if the HC devs re-ran the numbers based on the changes made since 2009. I suspect they'd be a lot lower, especially for ones that require a lot of multi-zone travel....

*Task Forces give an average of 1 merit every 3 minutes of average time (20 merits an hour), Trials give an average of 1 merit every 2.5 minutes (24 merits an hour), and Story Arcs give an average of 1 merit every 7.5 minutes (8 merits an hour). The reason for this major difference is due to the considerable time and effort Task/Strike Forces can take to set up and complete, so naturally these tasks grant a much greater reward.
-source

Edited December 12, 2020 by Eclipse.

[Eclipse.]

41 minutes ago, Lazarillo said:

How many really do?  The only one I can think of that's that short without speedrunning is Yin, and even then 30 minutes is a good run that probably stealth/TPs the team on the last mission.

Based on Merits values/reward calculation,  none that people actually run.

Virgil Tarkoss is a bit over at ~40m
The Ouro arcs are all in roughly the 15-30m range
and Katie Hannon is ~15m

Most of the Redside SFs are in the ~1hr 15m range (similar to ITF based on merits), except Silver Mantis which is in the 2hr range

Blue side....is much longer on average. Other than Ouro & Katie mentioned above, they START at the 1hr 30m mark. Posi (before being split up), was apparently around the 3hr mark (after the split they're ~30m and ~45m respectively based on merits), and the first TF most people would encounter...as was Synapse, and then Sister Psyche would be 2.5, it trends down towards the 1.5hr mark from there until the Shadow shard which are mostly 3+ hr affairs.

Edited December 12, 2020 by Eclipse.

[Grouchybeast]

The ITF is definitely one of the speedier TF, in my experience.  Oddly, they do seem to take a bit longer in general on HC than I remember on Live.   On the other hand, I did a LOT of speed ITFs on Defiant, so maybe that's jut colouring my perception.

 

I'd hate to lose any of it, anyway.  It's one of my favourite TFs, with plenty of fun set pieces.

[ninja surprise]

On 12/9/2020 at 5:56 PM, krj12 said:

2.  Fix mission 3 mission objective so that it reads "Defeat Requiem" instead of "Defeat General".   Romulus gets his own objective line, so why not the other AV?  

 

Great suggestions. To maintain that "element of surprise" the other person mentioned it could be a goal that changes from "defeat 5 generals" to "defeat Requiem!" after you've defeated 4 generals. I've seen mission objectives change like that as you progress through it.

 

As for doors, I wouldn't mind if they were changed to match most door mission doors where you click and go in and I don't think there's any animation. I just want to go in, I don't care if the people behind me see an open door next to a black rectangle that they can't click on.

 

Seems like for Sister Solaris and all the other hostages devs could boost their perception so they see through stealth and can see further than 5 feet period so you don't have to stand right next to them and tap your foot to get them to follow.  Hostage sees you across the room / map, Oh there you are, and comes running over. That'd be great.

[Doc_Scorpion]

6 hours ago, MsSmart said:

And the door thing, seems to be a game wide issue, would be nice if once the door is open, you click and go through without having to open the door. I am not going to make guesses if it is a lot of work or not to fix, that is a dev's decision based that they actually know the code, but it is a nice QoL.

I happened to notice yesterday that with City Hall doors you could click on an open one and exit/enter City Hall.

[MsSmart]

On 12/12/2020 at 3:48 PM, Eclipse. said:

We've had very different experiences with ITFs, I feel like most "Kill Most" +4 ITF runs I've done (with pugs) are in the 30-40 minute range. I can't think of a task force that is consistently shorter than ITFs, with a party that is mostly higher levels, even if you're not doing a speed run. Even Katie Hannon often takes longer than ITF if she bugs or runs away in my experience.

I think ITF's real issue from a time-perspective is that it was originally designed with the largest level disparity in the game. It's pretty middle of the pack as far as how long it took to run, At least on live & Blue side based on Merit Rewards*, 13 that are expected to take longer, 5 that take less. The difference between a group with a lot of 35's and a group of all 50's is pretty massive, though. MOST task forces are expected to be well over an hour on blue side.

I'm curious if you played primarily on Red side on live, though, where all the taskforces were much shorter affairs (ALL BUT ONE of the redside task forces are  shorter or extremely close in merit rewards to the ITF)


Edit:

It'd be interesting to see what the new Merit rewards would be [potentially] for  various taskforces if the HC devs re-ran the numbers based on the changes made since 2009. I suspect they'd be a lot lower, especially for ones that require a lot of multi-zone travel....

*Task Forces give an average of 1 merit every 3 minutes of average time (20 merits an hour), Trials give an average of 1 merit every 2.5 minutes (24 merits an hour), and Story Arcs give an average of 1 merit every 7.5 minutes (8 merits an hour). The reason for this major difference is due to the considerable time and effort Task/Strike Forces can take to set up and complete, so naturally these tasks grant a much greater reward.
-source

Mmm, not that I would be eager to see the merit values change, but it could make sense that the merit award not be fixed as they are, but be based on time, as noted above TFs 1 merit per 3 minutes, so if you do a fast TF, well it was fast, but you did not get as many merits as taking your time and killing everything. This could also be compensated by adding 25% merits for each handicap experienced during the  mission such as no temps, etc. This could be a way to reward low level groups, really battling, versus 8 level 50 incarnates trashing everything on site.

 

Sue

[JKPhage]

On 12/12/2020 at 5:26 PM, ninja surprise said:

Great suggestions. To maintain that "element of surprise" the other person mentioned it could be a goal that changes from "defeat 5 generals" to "defeat Requiem!" after you've defeated 4 generals. I've seen mission objectives change like that as you progress through it.

This would also not work, as the Generals are fought on the way to the valley, meaning you'd kill a Cimeroran General in the valley, then suddenly be magically aware that Requiem, the formerly disgraced and deposed leader of the 5th Column is here, despite not having rounded the corner and found their hidden base and giant robots planted in the middle of ancient Rome. Even once you enter the valley, you really don't even know that he's here, just that the 5th Column is, somehow. The only way changing the objective works is if it's proximity triggered by getting near him.

 

At the end of the day, this is a change that *could* be done, but ultimately does not *need* to be done. It would be a lot of work to change for what amounts to zero reward. It was done the way it was on live for effect and to maintain the story surprise. If they had a way to change it properly, they likely would have, or maybe they also concluded that it was fine the way it is. Other things brought up here, decent points mostly, but this one is just something that has never needed to be fixed and I don't think anyone is going to devote the time to it for something that is ultimately not even going to be noticed by 90% of players.