Something that Needs to be Talked About (Epilepsy and Headaches)

[Solarverse]

So I was just about to buy Cyberpunk 2077 and a friend of mine alerted me to this...

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/cyberpunk-2077-patch-pc-playstation-xbox-231323433.html

 

She says to me, "Man, if you buy it, get ready for all kinds of graphics nerfs. All the pretty eye candy is about to go bye-bye.

I said, "Why? What do you mean?"

She says, "Because people who are prone to have epileptic seizures are trying to play the game and they are reporting that the game is giving them seizures and now they are on the forums demanding a nerf to the graphics."

I said, "Are you kidding me??? Why are they even playing video games if they are prone to having seizures? Hell, even when I was a kid playing Atari, it had a warning to people prone to seizures that the game could induce them. If I was prone to this, I wouldn't play them!"

 

So sadly, I won't be buying the game now because I don't want to watch what happened to this game, happen to another game that I might enjoy.

 

Here is the problem. I love to read; and if reading the small print in paperback books caused me to have seizures or headaches, I would either buy glasses or stop reading. I sure as hell would not contact the book companies and demand that they print in large print just for me. Yet this is what people do and have been doing for years. This game alone has lost soooo much eye candy and sounds because people are susceptible to headaches or seizures. I watched some really terrific graphics get nerfed like crazy in this game because of people who frankly should not be playing video games, playing them anyway and then demanding graphics nerfs because it hurts their heads in some way or form.

 

Now I am sure that people are going to rip me for saying that I feel needs to be said, but it is pretty damn sad that I won't even be bothering to buy a game I have been waiting a long time to buy because the nerfs are already coming to graphics. That company has just lost my money over this and I don't mind being that guy who is going to tell it to you like it should have been told for years now...but if games give you headaches and if games give you seizures...stop playing them! To me, the fact that is just pure insanity! If the fire burns, keep your hands out of it! If it hurts, don't do it!

 

Hate me if you want to, rage at me if you want to...but that simple logic sadly had to be said. I would absolutely love to do a lot of things, but since it wouldn't be good for my health, I don't do them. Why is this such a hard concept to understand? Why buy a game that comes with a warning label on it (as all games do) and then complain that the game is causing you the very issues it warned you against and then go to the forums and demand graphics nerfs? Really?

 

I thought about holding my tongue on this, but then I had realized this pertains to City of Heroes as well...it has happened here and I still see people requesting graphics and sound nerfs on these boards even after all these years. That crap just makes absolute zero fricken sense to me.

[Greycat]

That's ... frankly shortsighted, selfish, uninformed and rude.

 

Not all people know they're going to be prone to seizures. Not everyone has the same triggers. Not everyone has run into them. Should kids not watch cartoons either? (Look up Pokemon and the surprise it had for... how many kids in Japan was it?)

 

Hell. Just with THIS game, there are examples. Sonic came out, it started triggering migraines in people. It started giving *ME* mild headaches, and I have *never* had, or been diagnosed with, anything like migraines. Still haven't. Friends who had been playing since launch, and played other games for years, had to suddenly stop and deal with their migranes. Their lives would be disrupted, sometimes for better than a day, because of something suddenly introduced into a game they were fine with until that point.

 

When the Sonic graphics were finally revised? In the middle of a bunch of ... I'm not going to say what I think of them ... saying "oh, orange makes me sick" in order to *mock* the people who had migraines getting triggered, was one person who *actually did* have an issue that had gone completely undiagnosed until then, but the issue was triggered by the graphics in the large Sonic bubble. (And yes, you could tell the difference between the people just trying to cause trouble and the person who actually DID have issues with the new graphics.) We started discussing it. Then he'd talked to his girlfriend (or fiance', don't recall) who pointed out he'd also had some sort of episode with the ... opening, I think.. .of the Saw movie.

 

He went to a neurologist and got tested. And yes, certain graphics were triggering issues for *him.* He had no idea, and had been playing games for years without encountering it. Should he have never been playing COH? Or any video game? Should he have started avoiding movies all together on the off chance another would have a similar graphic?  Because that's what you're saying in your post.

 

So, no, what you feel "needs" to be said? It's only what's being said, I *hope,*  out of *misunderstanding* and *misinformation.* It is not "simple logic" if you haven't been exposed to whatever triggers a condition. People can play video games for *years* and not run across a certain combination, frequency or type of graphic that causes them problems.  And, frankly, games developers (and anyone else in visual media) should damn well KNOW by now the sort of things that trigger fits and episodes and AVOID them. It's not new information.

 

As far as cyberpunk? I've watched some playthroughs. And while they don't bother me, yes, there are some graphics that should have been obvious to a five year old that they would have caused problems - and should *never* have gotten past an experienced development team like CDPR.

 

And if I sound a bit pissed off writing this reply? I *am.* Because people I know and love have been hurt in this in the past and had other .... individuals-resembling-specific-orifices *mock* them for it. And I will *not* put up with it from people without very bluntly speaking my mind. Saying - or implying, rather - that they should have no right to have the game changed to *not cause them pain,* that they should just shut up and leave...

 

I'm hoping your post was simply out of misinformation and you "get it" now. Or you sit down and think about it for a bit and then get it. One of them, because I generally enjoy interacting with you. Understand, I'm *seriously angry* at the ideas presented as well as how that was done, and trying to put that across without it turning ... attackish. No, I won't be returning to the thread, because yes, right now the *thought* of re-reading that and remembering how it's affected people - and the attitude shown in the post throws at them and people like them - has me so incredibly *pissed off* that I frankly don't want to revisit it or discuss it further.

 

And my apologies ahead of time to any mods. But this is a *particularly* sore subject with history for me. Did try to watch my phrasing.

[Solarverse]

Just now, Greycat said:

That's ... frankly shortsighted, selfish, uninformed and rude.

You are probably right. I won't deny that. However, I have sat on the sidelines for years and years and have watched some really great graphics get nerfed...graphics that were a part of this game straight out of the box. I feel like I have stayed silent on the subject long enough.

Just now, Greycat said:

Not all people know they're going to be prone to seizures. Not everyone has the same triggers. Not everyone has run into them. Should kids not watch cartoons either? (Look up Pokemon and the surprise it had for... how many kids in Japan was it?)

 

Hell. Just with THIS game, there are examples. Sonic came out, it started triggering migraines in people. It started giving *ME* mild headaches, and I have *never* had, or been diagnosed with, anything like migraines. Still haven't. Friends who had been playing since launch, and played other games for years, had to suddenly stop and deal with their migranes. Their lives would be disrupted, sometimes for better than a day, because of something suddenly introduced into a game they were fine with until that point.

 

When the Sonic graphics were finally revised? In the middle of a bunch of ... I'm not going to say what I think of them ... saying "oh, orange makes me sick" in order to *mock* the people who had migraines getting triggered, was one person who *actually did* have an issue that had gone completely undiagnosed until then, but the issue was triggered by the graphics in the large Sonic bubble. (And yes, you could tell the difference between the people just trying to cause trouble and the person who actually DID have issues with the new graphics.) We started discussing it. Then he'd talked to his girlfriend (or fiance', don't recall) who pointed out he'd also had some sort of episode with the ... opening, I think.. .of the Saw movie.

 

He went to a neurologist and got tested. And yes, certain graphics were triggering issues for *him.* He had no idea, and had been playing games for years without encountering it. Should he have never been playing COH? Or any video game? Should he have started avoiding movies all together on the off chance another would have a similar graphic?  Because that's what you're saying in your post.

That is more understandable, since it was a graphic introduced to the game after the fact. I am not even going to frown upon something like that. I am more specifically talking about a part of the game that was here straight out of the box. That is the part I take issue with. I never said a word about the graphics changes to Sonic...even though it did not bother me a single bit, I understood. What did however piss me straight the hell off is when around i6 or so, people started complaining about Ice Tanks and the graphics they had...suddenly those graphics were nerfed and now we have a shotty version of what it once was. I honestly feel that people had no right to complain about those graphics, but they did anyway despite the warning label on the box. So what happened was that everyone lost out on those graphics due to players who probably shouldn't have been playing video games to begin with.

 

Granted, there will be exceptions, but my finger pointing is a lot more specific that what your friend went through. I am more specifically talking about people who know that they have a condition, but play the games anyway and then demand those games be changed to fit their personal needs. It's kind of like when that woman sued MacDonald's for spilling coffee on herself even though MacDonald's advertised and was proud of having the hottest coffee in town. It's like, what? Really?

Just now, Greycat said:

 

So, no, what you feel "needs" to be said? It's only what's being said, I *hope,*  out of *misunderstanding* and *misinformation.* It is not "simple logic" if you haven't been exposed to whatever triggers a condition. People can play video games for *years* and not run across a certain combination, frequency or type of graphic that causes them problems.  And, frankly, games developers (and anyone else in visual media) should damn well KNOW by now the sort of things that trigger fits and episodes and AVOID them. It's not new information.

Except they are not doctors. How could they know? That is why they put a warning label right on the box...a warning label that people just out right ignore. I mean, if they hired a neurologist or something, I could see there being no excuse, but then we are talking about cost and how much of that cost that would rip from the company.

Just now, Greycat said:

 

As far as cyberpunk? I've watched some playthroughs. And while they don't bother me, yes, there are some graphics that should have been obvious to a five year old that they would have caused problems - and should *never* have gotten past an experienced development team like CDPR.

I mean, gaming companies don't build their games around people who shouldn't be playing them though. It would be different if they were implementing a graphics option, and if that were the case, i wouldn't be here right now with this post. I have never had an issue with people requesting options to help the game better fit them...however, people didn't ask for an option with the Ice Graphics on Tanks...no, they demanded (very loudly) that those graphics be straight up nerfed. Options are great, they make the game customizable for everyone and nobody's graphics has to affect the other. However, that is not what is happening with Cyberpunk...they are downright nerfing the graphics just like Ice straight up got nerfed here. See how this can bother some people?

Just now, Greycat said:

 

And if I sound a bit pissed off writing this reply? I *am.* Because people I know and love have been hurt in this in the past and had other .... individuals-resembling-specific-orifices *mock* them for it. And I will *not* put up with it from people without very bluntly speaking my mind. Saying - or implying, rather - that they should have no right to have the game changed to *not cause them pain,* that they should just shut up and leave...

It's okay that you are pissed. I'm pissed too...we are just pissed for opposite reasons. I won't take it personally though, you have a right to be pissed if you want. I like you, but that doesn't mean we have to like each other all the time about every topic out there, heh.

 

[Lazarillo]

You're playing a game that's 15 years old as it is.  Clearly this isn't about defending the integrity of graphics.  And even if in some strange way you are, you're arguing it to a group where many if not most of them (like myself) grew up on games that looked like this, so you've got kind of an uphill battle going here.

Edited December 12, 2020 by Lazarillo

[Kaipto]

Inclusivity doesn’t need to be a zero sum game. Folks who are privileged... I.e. who don’t have epilepsy, i.e. you in this instance... are doing themselves and folks without epilepsy a disservice by coming at it through a very selfish lens of “screw you, there are more of us without epilepsy, your asks don’t matter” instead of with some empathy. We have enough polarization in the world around us, we don’t need more in our escapes from it.

 

If a game can be built more inclusively, it should. It doesn’t hurt you if there’s a way to enhance optionality within graphic features or tone them down to broaden the accessibility for more people who don’t get to live as easily as you do, unencumbered by epilepsy.
 

And if someone with epilepsy is TRULY arguing to “nerf graphics for everyone” (which I highly doubt is their intent), be the bigger person and instead of feeling threatened + jumping to a doomsday scenario that they’re somehow clamoring to ruin your game (which is not your game, it should be for everyone, including people with epilepsy), propose a compromise, such as an inclusive settings toggle to tone down graphics that allow epileptic fans to play on that setting while you can continue along on whatever higher setting it is you like.

 

People with disabilities aren’t looking to ruin your good time. They’re trying to be a part of it. Don’t make it harder for them by gatekeeping, particularly when you haven’t had to endure their difficulties yourself.

Edited December 12, 2020 by Kaipto

[Solarverse]

Just now, Kaipto said:

If a game can be built more inclusively, it should. It doesn’t hurt you if there’s a way to enhance optionality within graphic features

Except that isn't what is being done, otherwise I wouldn't be here posting this. You say my point of view is selfish. I think people who demand changes to a game that has an actual warning label on it that warns them from playing the game, are the ones being selfish when they demand that game's graphics be nerfed to be customized just for them. It's one thing to ask for an optional graphics change, it's another to downright demand a forced change for all.

 

I think one sounds more selfish than the other.

[Grimz]

5 replies in and I already don't like the direction the conversation is going...

[macskull]

"I hate when things get changed so others with disabilities can enjoy them." Big yikes there, OP.

Edited December 12, 2020 by macskull

[Solarverse]

Just now, macskull said:

"I hate when things get changed so others can enjoy them." Big yikes there, OP.

I'm not sorry.

[Apparition]

[Kaipto]

7 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

Except that isn't what is being done, otherwise I wouldn't be here posting this. You say my point of view is selfish. I think people who demand changes to a game that has an actual warning label on it that warns them from playing the game, are the ones being selfish when they demand that game's graphics be nerfed to be customized just for them. It's one thing to ask for an optional graphics change, it's another to downright demand a forced change for all.

 

I think one sounds more selfish than the other.

Their requests aren’t selfish; they’re pushing for inclusivity because it’s 2020, not 1920.

 

You’re coming across like someone who gets upset because a restaurant wants to add a wheelchair ramp for ease of access to more patrons. “Well! There were stairs before! Anyone with a wheelchair and eyes could have seen that plain as day! How selfish of WHEELCHAIR PEOPLE to DEMAND a ramp.”

 

The installation of the wheelchair ramp won’t hurt you nor your privileged legs that allow you to walk. I promise.

Edited December 12, 2020 by Kaipto

[macskull]

I mean I've seen a lot of idiotic posts on these boards but this one takes the cake. "I would rather others not be able to play this game than have things changed to be more accommodating" has got to be one of the most entitled, self-absorbed attitudes I've ever heard. Besides, I can't think of any instances in this game other than the Sonic VFX/SFX that were changed non-optionally.

Edited December 12, 2020 by macskull

[Solarverse]

Just now, Kaipto said:

Their requests aren’t selfish; they’re pushing for inclusivity because it’s 2020, not 1920.

 

You’re coming across like someone who gets upset because a restaurant wants to add a wheelchair ramp for ease of access to more patrons. “Well! There were stairs before! Any with a wheelchair and eyes could have seen that plain as day! How selfish of them to DEMAND a ramp.”

 

The installation of the wheelchair ramp won’t hurt you nor your privileged legs that allow you to walk. I promise.

That is absolutely nothing like what I am talking about....that is not even close to being a viable comparison. A better comparison would be, "They stopped making swings because not everyone likes swing sets. So now swings don't exist."

There is a huge difference between a playing asking for a minimal graphics option and forcing that minimal graphics on everybody.

 

If you can't understand that then all I can say is what I told Macskull....I'm not sorry...not even a little bit.

[Solarverse]

Just now, macskull said:

I mean I've seen a lot of idiotic posts on these boards but this one takes the cake. "I would rather others not be able to play this game than have things changed to be more accommodating" has got to be one of the most entitled, self-absorbed attitudes I've ever heard. Besides, I can't think of any instances in this game other than the Sonic VFX/SFX that were changed non-optionally.

Again...not sorry, dude. If me thinking people who demand changes instead of requesting optional changes makes me a bad guy, then so be it, I'll straight up own that crap, man. If this makes me bad than I must be the straight up devil and have no plans of changing...like at all.

[macskull]

Meh, I'll just report the thread and move on. This is obviously not worth anyone's time.

[Kaipto]

7 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

That is absolutely nothing like what I am talking about....that is not even close to being a viable comparison. A better comparison would be, "They stopped making swings because not everyone likes swing sets. So now swings don't exist."

There is a huge difference between a playing asking for a minimal graphics option and forcing that minimal graphics on everybody.

 

If you can't understand that then all I can say is what I told Macskull....I'm not sorry...not even a little bit.

Oh you’re right! That is a better analogy. I forgot about the part where Cyberpunk 2077 agreed to “take the whole swing set down” I.e. just halt the game altogether so that no one could play.

 

Oh wait. That’s not what they’re doing at all. Not even close.

 

If you can’t understand how someone in a privileged majority is being selfish by arguing that a minority striving for accessibility or equity to enjoy something doesn’t deserve it, then you’re just doubling down on being a jerk. Congrats.

Edited December 12, 2020 by Kaipto

[Solarverse]

Just now, macskull said:

Meh, I'll just report the thread and move on. This is obviously not worth anyone's time.

[Solarverse]

Just now, Kaipto said:

Oh you’re right! That is a better analogy. I forgot about the part where Cyberpunk 2077 agreed to “take the whole swing set down” I.e. just halt the game together so that no one could play.

 

Oh wait. That’s not what they’re doing at all. Not even close.

 

If you can’t understand how someone in a privileged majority is being selfish by arguing that a minority accessing for accessibility or equity to enjoy something doesn’t deserve it, then you’re just doubling down on being a jerk. Congrats.

I will tripple down on that. Straight up. I will take it straight to my grave if need be. If it is not an option, it does not need to get changed...period.

[Grimz]

If you knew that people were going to bash you for your opinion and knew that almost no one would agree with you, then why did you bother posting this? What compelled you to post this in the first place? Did you want someone to prove you wrong? Did you just want to try and uplift on controversy? Or do you just revel in hatred and arrogance? There was no reason for you to make a post about this topic, in this forum, surround by people far more accepting and understanding than you. If you wanted to post a controversial topic about a situation where you know that your opinion is not going to be received well, post it on Reddit, not here. The way I see it, all you are doing is wasting your time fighting a losing battle.

[Solarverse]

Just now, Grimz said:

If you knew that people were going to bash you for your opinion and knew that almost no one would agree with you, then why did you bother posting this?

Because not everyone who agrees with me is going to post their thoughts. Not everyone has a thick enough skin to get bashed the way I can. I can take it. Most people cannot. I cannot tell you how many times I have talked with people about this game and told them, "Why don't you bring your concerns to the forums?" and then their response is something to the effect of, "because the way people lash out at you on the forums for having an opinion that differs from theirs is something I simply can't deal with so I never post the forums."

 

And you know what? They are right not to post because that is exactly what people do. People are preaching to me tolerance and whatnot yet they are not being very tolerant to my point of view. Instead of having a conversation about it, they have went straight to calling me idiotic and straight to demonizing me. I don't care...that crap does not bother me one single bit. I know who I am and what I am. Nobody can tell me what I am or who I am, especially based off a single or even a few differing ideas as to what is acceptable or not.

I do not personally believe that any graphics or sound should ever be made without it being an option and I will stand by that no matter how many people hate me for it. They think I am selfish for thinking like this, well guess what, I think they are selfish for thinking the opposite. So yeah, perhaps the posters here will hate me, but I happen to know there are a lot of people who agree with me. Just because they do not post here doesn't mean a damn thing. And some things just need to be said...and this is one of them. Not everyone has the thick skin to say it and deal with the hate. I do.

Just now, Grimz said:

What compelled you to post this in the first place? Did you want someone to prove you wrong? Did you just want to try and uplift on controversy? Or do you just revel in hatred and arrogance? There was no reason for you to make a post about this topic, in this forum, surround by people far more accepting and understanding than you. If you wanted to post a controversial topic about a situation where you know that your opinion is not going to be received well, post it on Reddit, not here. The way I see it, all you are doing is wasting your time fighting a losing battle.

I think I covered the rest of your questions already.

[Widower]

4 minutes ago, Grimz said:

If you wanted to post a controversial topic about a situation where you know that your opinion is not going to be received well, post it on Reddit, not here. 

I'm GM Widower and I endorse this sentence.

 

Anyway, this thread is going to go nowhere, so I will lock it.