Galaxy Brain's 2021 Sentinel Fix

[Gobbledigook]

8 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

It would then lose Swap Ammo. A slightly different solution needs to be found.

Or add a BU clicky to swap ammo? You select the ammo then everyone time you click the same ammo after you get the BU. You can switch ammo anytime but the cool down timer still ticks.

 

Rubbish idea probably lol.

Edited January 5, 2021 by Gobbledegook

[Galaxy Brain]

9 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

Having it tied to the attacks sucks. It means that if I don't want to trigger it I sometimes have no choice. It definitely needs to be on a separate button.

I kind of dig it personally as it's a 2 for one haha, I like being able to inflict harsh effects on top of damage thematically  🙂

 

Looking into it more, every Sentinel set has a lvl 6 ST attack that could also trigger the mark if we say "the lvl 1 and lvl 6 blasts can all mark targets".

 

A total side thought here, but what if you had a chance to just apply a mark at any time with any attack, but only 1 at a time? You'd always have a base (10%) chance that builds up as you build meter up to 100%, once you apply a mark it resets though.... its a start of something maybe 🤔

 

 

[Wavicle]

1 minute ago, Galaxy Brain said:

I kind of dig it personally as it's a 2 for one haha, I like being able to inflict harsh effects on top of damage thematically  🙂

 

Looking into it more, every Sentinel set has a lvl 6 ST attack that could also trigger the mark if we say "the lvl 1 and lvl 6 blasts can all mark targets".

 

A total side thought here, but what if you had a chance to just apply a mark at any time with any attack, but only 1 at a time? You'd always have a base (10%) chance that builds up as you build meter up to 100%, once you apply a mark it resets though.... its a start of something maybe 🤔

 

 

No. Either it should be on ALL attacks or on a separate button.

[Wavicle]

2 minutes ago, Gobbledegook said:

Or add a BU clicky to swap ammo? You select the ammo then everyone time you click the same ammo after you get the BU. You can switch ammo anytime but the cool down timer still ticks.

 

Rubbish idea probably lol.

What maybe could work would be to simply have Swapping Ammo itself grant a short Damage buff. The buff could itself be on a cooldown, so Swapping more frequently wouldn't get you the buff more often.

[Monos King]

40 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

It would then lose Swap Ammo. A slightly different solution needs to be found.

There's really no reason for Swap Ammo to not come automatically upon reaching a certain level, or just upon creation of a character.

[Wavicle]

11 minutes ago, Monos King said:

There's really no reason for Swap Ammo to not come automatically upon reaching a certain level, or just upon creation of a character.

It IS the Aim power of the set. It just needs to be good enough to fill that spot.

[Monos King]

Just now, Wavicle said:

It IS the Aim power of the set. It just needs to be good enough to fill that spot.

I'm not familiar with the sentinel version. Does that one offer +to hit and such?

[Wavicle]

14 minutes ago, Monos King said:

I'm not familiar with the sentinel version. Does that one offer +to hit and such?

Unfortunately, no. The only difference, afaik, is the Sentinel version has +Range on the Cryo Rounds.

 

I think a buff to Swap Ammo for all ATs would be good.

[Wavicle]

1 hour ago, Galaxy Brain said:

I kind of dig it personally as it's a 2 for one haha, I like being able to inflict harsh effects on top of damage thematically  🙂

 

Looking into it more, every Sentinel set has a lvl 6 ST attack that could also trigger the mark if we say "the lvl 1 and lvl 6 blasts can all mark targets".

 

A total side thought here, but what if you had a chance to just apply a mark at any time with any attack, but only 1 at a time? You'd always have a base (10%) chance that builds up as you build meter up to 100%, once you apply a mark it resets though.... its a start of something maybe 🤔

 

 

Alternatively, if it HAD to be a choice between the two buffs and limited to those two attacks, then the Opportunity buffs should be STRONG so that it's a really meaningful choice.

[Galaxy Brain]

6 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

Alternatively, if it HAD to be a choice between the two buffs and limited to those two attacks, then the Opportunity buffs should be STRONG so that it's a really meaningful choice.

Id rather it not be between the two buffs, nor they be super strong as it reinforces the root issues in the OP with the clunkiness and feast/famine.

 

Changes should hit those two issues directly where it is a smooth experience and you're not just waiting to "be a real character" once Opportunity is up. Even Dominators are still pretty dang solid outside Domination. 

[Wavicle]

I agree. Better either put it on all attacks or on a separate button.

[Galaxy Brain]

9 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

I agree. Better either put it on all attacks or on a separate button.

Thinking on it more without bringing up the standard code rant, I'm not 100% sure how much effort would need to go into adding it to "all" powers, unless you mean all ST attacks? If so, not all sets have the same amount of ST and that can get kind of awkward. Having it on the 2 lvl 1 blasts and the lvl 6 blast is a bit more standardized and iirc all the lvl 6 blasts are used + you have to take one of the lvl 1s to start. 

 

Id imagine simply changing the "trigger" to make a mark on the powers that already have it would be easiest, and from there adding just 1 more power per set would be the next step before "anything marks". Id also prefer an attack over a seperate button to be quite honest as its about the same investment, even if its just your T1 you click it and after 1s can act again to make use of the mark. If its an issue of either attack missing, the tech to do autohit effects exists with TW and EM now.

 

[Wavicle]

I would think it being on all single target attacks would be fine. No they don’t all get the same number, but that all get enough.

[Gobbledigook]

As I mentioned in the Tanker forum briefly, maybe the Sentinel could offer a small Mez protection to the team as they stand guard over them. It could be a useful edition for squishies in the team, especially pre incarnate and make them a valuable team member?

Edited January 6, 2021 by Gobbledegook

[SwitchFade]

Just mentioning...

 

I'm cool with changes; the only one I no vote is any change to defensive that reduces the incoming healing. It's actually quite good.

[Galaxy Brain]

32 minutes ago, SwitchFade said:

Just mentioning...

 

I'm cool with changes; the only one I no vote is any change to defensive that reduces the incoming healing. It's actually quite good.

Been thinking on this. While having a perk for defeating marked targets is something I think should be in there, would it be better if it was the current "hit a target and get some HP/End back" on marked targets instead?

[Wavicle]

6 hours ago, Gobbledegook said:

As I mentioned in the Tanker forum briefly, maybe the Sentinel could offer a small Mez protection to the team as they stand guard over them. It could be a useful edition for squishies in the team, especially pre incarnate and make them a valuable team member?

It’s damage dealing class. The problem is that it doesn’t do enough damage.

[Replacement]

17 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

It’s damage dealing class. The problem is that it doesn’t do enough damage.

That's kind of a weird sweeping generalization though, isn't it?  I mean, you could make the same argument of Corruptor or Tanker.

  

It doesn't at all preclude fleshing out the AT with some more identity, so I wouldn't shut it down out of hand.

 

Though that reminds me - I don't think the OP is aggressive enough in the +secondary department. I'd gun for Corruptor numbers. As I mentioned in my own thread on the topic, it would make Sentinel the only Blast AT that actually relies on those secondary effects for the party support offered (since while Corruptor and Defender both have great debuffs on their blasts, they're basically always overshadowed by their actual support sets).

Edited January 6, 2021 by Replacement

[Gobbledigook]

21 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

It’s damage dealing class. The problem is that it doesn’t do enough damage.

I'm just trying to give it some utility also as it is never going to out compete blasters/scrappers etc for damage.

Edited January 6, 2021 by Gobbledegook

[aethereal]

The initial proposal sounds pretty crazy complicated to me.  We should be looking to decomplexify Sentinel, not increase its complexity.

 

Also, I don't think that the devs would ever go for a significant unresistable resistance debuff.  I get the impression that Cpt Powerhouse wants to remove most sources of -resist, such as removing the Tanker -resist in favor of a straight damage buff.  I imagine that the same will happen to the Sentinel.

 

PS: do "unresistable" debuffs still get hit by the purple patch?  I don't know how that works.

 

Giving allies +perception seems, I don't know, maybe flavorful but actually such a non-big deal that most people won't even notice?  And can something you don't notice really be flavorful?

 

Powerhouse has also said that he wants the Sentinel to be "sustained AoE damage" oriented -- better than a scrapper at sustained AoE, worse than a scrapper at sustained ST, presumably worse than a blaster at burst AoE.  I don't really agree with this as a goal.  I'm not sure that "sustained AoE" is a coherent source of strength.  Burst AoE is all that matters, since good burst AoE kills all minions and most lts?  Does it matter if you can follow up your AoE with more AoE once the minions and lts are dead?  And I also think that it's hard to find a role for an AoE-focused class between Tanks and Blasters, especially since Scraps and Brutes are plenty good at AoE.

 

My preferred role for a Sent would be sustained ST damage.  Like back-loaded Stalkers.  Instead of coming out strong with guaranteed crits from a hide, my preferred verssion of Sents would be for them to build up to a brutal cadence of high ST damage against hard targets, probably by applying a small-but-long-duration-and-stackable resist debuff on each hit to a target.  (Yes, I know I said that the devs don't want to do more -resist, but I'm not a dev).  I think that the defensive-opportunity-like small heal and endurance heal against a target could also play into this, making them a premiere class for duking it out with very hard targets.  Like, your first hit to a target could mark them, and then once marked the second hit and later could have a chance to proc heal and end heal.  I think this would be an interesting role, personally, though it's very much not the meta and I think it wouldn't do a ton to make the broad playerbase more happy with sents, and wouldn't necessarily make them great team players (since a full team generally chews through even very hard targets pretty successfully).

 

If you want to give Sents more of an AoE focus and more of a "I watch out for my teammates" deal, then I like the idea of giving Sents a powerful, short-duration accuracy debuff on opponents on their first hit, followed by a long period of immunity to that acc debuff from the opponent (on a mechanical level, you'd have an effect that would give -accuracy if the opponent didn't have a particular status, then it would give that status to the opponent).  So the next hit would not repeat the accuracy debuff.  Why accuracy and not to-hit?  Because -accuracy on opponents is useful even if the player is soft-capped, while -to-hit is not useful if you're soft-capped.  I believe there are no sources of -accuracy in the game, so this would give sents a thing only they would do.  It would help them survive alpha so they could sustain their AoE long enough to kill minions and lts, and it has a sort of flavorful thing of, "Oh shit, an ambush is coming in, I'll give my team a chance to recognize it and reconfigure to deal with it."  You could also have sents have inherent +perception and give -stealth on hits, which I like more than them having an aura of +perception.  Basically, since the sents are a damage-dealing class, I like as many of their abilities as possible be tied to hitting their opponents instead of just passively giving off auras.

Edited January 6, 2021 by aethereal
typo

[Monos King]

2 hours ago, aethereal said:

The initial proposal sounds pretty crazy complicated to me.  We should be looking to decomplexify Sentinel, not increase its complexity.

 

Also, I don't think that the devs would ever go for a significant unresistable resistance debuff.  I get the impression that Cpt Powerhouse wants to remove most sources of -resist, such as removing the Tanker -resist in favor of a straight damage buff.  I imagine that the same will happen to the Sentinel.

I just want Sentinels to become fun and meaningful so I'll actually play them. Removing most sources of -res and replacing them with damage buffs is frankly a bad take, as a mere dmg buff is pretty boring, and would actually clash with the purpose of the sentinel adding team support in battle. Fortunately, there isn't actually reason at all to assume that will be the way Sentinels get handled. 

2 hours ago, aethereal said:

PS: do "unresistable" debuffs still get hit by the purple patch?  I don't know how that works.

Yep.

 

[Galaxy Brain]

11 minutes ago, aethereal said:

The initial proposal sounds pretty crazy complicated to me.  We should be looking to decomplexify Sentinel, not increase its complexity.

I can see how it can come off that way, but at a high level I see it as:

 

Current Sentinel:

1. Attack targets to build meter
2. When meter is full, you have several things to think about:
   1. Which opportunity from the  T1 or T2 do you want to use?
   2. Which  target should you attempt to mark and trigger opportunity on?
   3. If you miss, do you wait for the same opportunity again or just settle for the other one?
3. Rinse / Repeat over and over to create a ton of choices over the course of combat

 

Proposed Sentinel:

1. Attack targets to build meter, as you build meter you and the team get better
2. Certain attacks mark targets that allow you to hit them harder. When you're at full meter, you and the team have bonuses to hitting these targets

 

My goal is to take away "decision fatigue" as much as possible which is what we see on the current setup unless everything goes perfectly each time (it doesn't). The proposal should cut out the cases of "which target? which opportunity? what do I do if I miss?" and other panicky scenarios while also boosting the performance outside of Opportunity.

 

 

11 minutes ago, aethereal said:

Also, I don't think that the devs would ever go for a significant unresistable resistance debuff.  I get the impression that Cpt Powerhouse wants to remove most sources of -resist, such as removing the Tanker -resist in favor of a straight damage buff.  I imagine that the same will happen to the Sentinel.

 

PS: do "unresistable" debuffs still get hit by the purple patch?  I don't know how that works.

The Tanker change was a little more nuanced as they started with a lot less damage (0.75 mod) and Bruising was a Band-Aid to help that, where Sentinels were made with Vulnerability from the start, on top of them having a direct near 1:1 competitor in Brutes, which is where their massive overhaul got it's roots in order to make them stand out more with a role.

 

Sentinels are in a similar boat, though they don't have any direct 1:1 competitor... moreso everyone else specializes more than them at their role (which is fair), but then some setups also just outclass them given that. Being a "Debuff specialist" on top of self protection and decent blasting is something pretty unique. 

 

As for the unresistable debuffs, this already exists with the IO Procs that inflict -Res. These have the target apply a power to themselves and ignore other resists. Technically this would be like having a built-in Achilles Heel proc.

 

11 minutes ago, aethereal said:

 

Giving allies +perception seems, I don't know, maybe flavorful but actually such a non-big deal that most people won't even notice?  And can something you don't notice really be flavorful?

Only if they perceive it 👀 

 

Tbh though this is for flavor more than anything due to Stealth content being limited, would still be nice in some instances!

 

11 minutes ago, aethereal said:

 

Powerhouse has also said that he wants the Sentinel to be "sustained AoE damage" oriented -- better than a scrapper at sustained AoE, worse than a scrapper at sustained ST, presumably worse than a blaster at burst AoE.  I don't really agree with this as a goal.  I'm not sure that "sustained AoE" is a coherent source of strength.  Burst AoE is all that matters, since good burst AoE kills all minions and most lts?  Does it matter if you can follow up your AoE with more AoE once the minions and lts are dead?  And I also think that it's hard to find a role for an AoE-focused class between Tanks and Blasters, especially since Scraps and Brutes are plenty good at AoE.

Agreed, sustained AoE only matters if there are a bunch of bosses at once which is kind of rare. I think their role should be like a cavalry that bolters the roles of everyone else while also being effective solo. Marking targets and boosting themselves and the team as they attack is something fun and dynamic that many would enjoy!

 

[Wavicle]

5 hours ago, Gobbledegook said:

I'm just trying to give it some utility also as it is never going to out compete blasters/scrappers etc for damage.

There’s no reason it shouldn’t do somewhere in the same vicinity as Scrappers. Stalkers, Blasters, and Scrappers all do fine damage. No reason Sentinels shouldn’t  also.

[Wavicle]

5 hours ago, Replacement said:

That's kind of a weird sweeping generalization though, isn't it?  I mean, you could make the same argument of Corruptor or Tanker.

  

It doesn't at all preclude fleshing out the AT with some more identity, so I wouldn't shut it down out of hand.

 

Though that reminds me - I don't think the OP is aggressive enough in the +secondary department. I'd gun for Corruptor numbers. As I mentioned in my own thread on the topic, it would make Sentinel the only Blast AT that actually relies on those secondary effects for the party support offered (since while Corruptor and Defender both have great debuffs on their blasts, they're basically always overshadowed by their actual support sets).

Nonsense. Corruptor and Tanker both have a role on teams that has nothing to do with doing damage. Sentinel does not.

[Rathulfr]

So my understanding of the proposal is this:

 

1. Combine Opportunity buffs into a single bundle of goodies (+damage and +mitigation), to eliminate making a decision of which to trigger (instead of the current +damage or +mitigation).
2. The single bundle of Opportunity goodies is delivered to targets by either the T1 or T2 (same bundle, non-stackable, no difference in potency), so that Sentinels don't have choose between T1 or T2: either/both get the job done.
3. Opportunity can be applied to multiple targets for several seconds each, but it won't activate until the bar fills up.
4. Opportunity is activated when the bar fills up, on any/every target that's been tagged by it (within the duration time).  Any/all attacks (not just T1 or T2) fill up the bar over time, and Opportunity is triggered automatically (like Domination on /powexec_auto, without the need for an extra trigger button).
5. Opportunity is no longer Inherent: it's linked to powers, instead.
6. "Overwatch" is the new Inherent (always on) that applies a PBAoE solo/team buff in a 60 ft radius (or diameter?).

If I understand this correctly, I kinda like it.  The Sentinel would use either/both their T1 or T2 to "tag" targets with Opportunity, but would pump up the Opportunity meter with all of their attacks.  When the meter is filled, *BOOM!* Opportunity lights up on all the tagged targets at once, making them vulnerable to the entire team.  The more targets I can hit with my T1 or T2 the better, as that would mean more targets become vulnerable.

 

And I think the Overwatch PBAoE team buff sounds interesting, although I think some of those numbers may need to be revised to make sure Sentinels aren't stepping on Corruptor/Defender toes.

 

Edited January 6, 2021 by Rathulfr