Galaxy Brain's 2021 Sentinel Fix

[Wavicle]

It all seems far too complicated relative to other ATs.

[Galaxy Brain]

3 hours ago, Wavicle said:

The thing that makes the power of the buff/debuff sets acceptable is the time it takes to cast them.

 

If you gave Sentinel Support power anywhere close to a corruptor but without the cast times then why would anyone play Corruptor?

 

Again, I think the superior path is to increase its capability as a damage dealer, not as a support toon.

It also very much depends on the power doing the debuff.

 

Sure, a Sentinel with Dark Blast lets say can debuff Tohit well. It is not gonna compete with Dark Miasma in that dept + actually support tho.

 

As for complexity, it all boils down to the actions IMHO. The numbers are all fluff when it boils down to:

 

Hit person, they get targeted and its better to attack them. The more you attack, you eventually go (diet) super sayain.

[oldskool]

I'm real late to this party, and I am bound to make some mistakes here that may have already been addressed.  

So in the original proposal of item #2 on Sentinel mark.  This is 100% uptime?  If T1, T2, or T3 apply a 10s non-stacking debuff that is overwritten whenever it is applied again, how is this not on all the time?  

I'm not opposed to that necessarily.  What that would do is allow for Sentinels to switch targets and apply the debuff.  However, against tough targets this is on all the time as it currently looks.  

One big problem about the Sentinel is that as you level one up Opportunity has a window of 15 seconds of feast gameplay.  After that there is a downtime of variable length directly related to global recharge.  

If players wanted to build for reduced downtime, then improving global recharge is a key aspect to consider.  Misses end up being the driver of longer downtime, but it is certainly possible to get 90% meter within 13 seconds on every single primary.  Assault Rifle can do it in 11 seconds but the cost to overall DPS isn't worth the gains.  

Now, players that care about nothing but damage don't care about Opportunity at all.  They care about Mind Probe and Dominate.  Hell, your primary at that point really doesn't matter.  Which version of Opportunity you leverage doesn't matter either.  

Offensive Opportunity in high end builds with extreme recharge and procs doesn't count for much total damage.  If this feature were scrapped tomorrow my main would lose 3 DPS.  

The resistance debuff however, is a huge deal.  Even if it is resisted somewhat by an enemy resistance debuffs increase damage noticeably.  Having a 15% unresistable debuff with the possibility of constant application of the T1, T2, or T3 is an absolute YES PLEASE.  You have no idea how much I'd abuse the F out this.  One of my character's T1, with procs, still recharges almost every second.  The T3 recharges within 2 seconds.  

Then, on top of this we can grant ourselves and our party a damage buff.  That's on top of the damage derivative from Offensive Opportunity which can be compounded by -15% unresistable debuff plus Achilles' Heel, plus Fury of the Gladiator, plus powers?  

Sign me up.  I want this yesterday.
 

[Galaxy Brain]

@oldskool,yep! The intent is that Sentinels can *always* mark one target.

[oldskool]

14 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

@oldskool,yep! The intent is that Sentinels can *always* mark one target.

I like the idea, but I don't think the 15% resistance debuff is going to happen.  As it was mentioned by another poster, there seems to be this aversion from having innate resistance reduction being a part of an AT's kit.  

[Galaxy Brain]

3 minutes ago, oldskool said:

I like the idea, but I don't think the 15% resistance debuff is going to happen.  As it was mentioned by another poster, there seems to be this aversion from having innate resistance reduction being a part of an AT's kit.  

Fair, but this is also something that only Sentinels have and currently they can produce far more every so often.

[aetherson]

3 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Fair, but this is also something that only Sentinels have and currently they can produce far more every so often.

Currently they can produce 25% resistable about half the time, with a high likelihood that some of that time will be wasted due to target death.

 

Unresistable resistance debuffs seem quite unlikely to me overall.  It makes the resistance debuff very swingy in value.  A 15% unresistable resistance debuff against a lot of enemies is the same as a 15% resistable.  But if you're applying psi damage to a robot, it's like a 40% or so resistable debuff.  Against a capped target, it's like a 150% resistance debuff.  I don't honestly see a lot of reason why we should want that in the game.

 

I think that the basic problem with resistance debuffs is not standard resistance, it's the purple patch.  We have this situation where the purple patch magnifies its effects against people who rely on resist debuffs.  So:

 

If I do 115 damage base, then I do roughly half that against a +4 opponent, so 57.5 damage.

 

If I do 100 damage base and a 15% resist debuff base, then against a +0 opponent I do 115 damage, just like the person above, but against a +4 opponent we half both values and so I do 50 damage with a 7.5% resistance debuff = 53.75 damage.

 

(Actual values are a little different because it's 48% damage and debuff values, not 50%, but you get the idea).

 

Monos King suggested earlier that unresistable debuffs are still affected by the purple patch.  Assuming that's the case, I don't think there's a good case for unresistable debuffs for sents.  Unresistable debuffs make good sense for small debuffs that you want to still be meaningful against AVs.  AVs have no special resistance to resistance debuffs and these proposed debuffs are not small.

 

I think it's also worthwhile to ask: why a resistance debuff?  Why not just Moar Damage?  Moar Damage scales better against the purple patch, it's just superior solo.  On a team, resistance debuffs have a magnification effect.  Does this actually give sents a meaningful team role?  Maybe.  I don't think that teams typically have a hard time with single targets in the current meta.  Maybe in the case of a few specific scenarios it'd be worthwhile.  But sents are never going to compete with defenders/corruptors in terms of their ability to debuff resistance.

Edited January 14, 2021 by aetherson
typo. 15% unresistable debuff against a capped target is like a 150% resistable resistance debuff, not a 250%.

[Galaxy Brain]

9 minutes ago, aetherson said:

Monos King suggested earlier that unresistable debuffs are still affected by the purple patch.  Assuming that's the case, I don't think there's a good case for unresistable debuffs for sents.  Unresistable debuffs make good sense for small debuffs that you want to still be meaningful against AVs.  AVs have no special resistance to resistance debuffs and these proposed debuffs are not small.

Thanks for the reply @aetherson! Everything, even unresistables, are affected by the purple patch before anything else applies. The key here is that Damage Resistance resists Resistance Debuffs, which currently messes with a number of Sentinel primaries vs many enemies. For example, lets say you are an Archery Sentinel and you're fighting something with ~50% Lethal Resistance. Your 25% res debuff is actually resisted by 50%, making it only about 12.5%. If your debuff is unresistable, it will always be 15% (which matters for the proposed Mez and Special debuffs in there too!)

 

There are cases where the 25% is still "better", but the ability to do this on command is where it will shine brighter (plus the other bonuses).

 

9 minutes ago, aetherson said:

 

I think it's also worthwhile to ask: why a resistance debuff?  Why not just Moar Damage?  Moar Damage scales better against the purple patch, it's just superior solo.  On a team, resistance debuffs have a magnification effect.  Does this actually give sents a meaningful team role?  Maybe.  I don't think that teams typically have a hard time with single targets in the current meta.  Maybe in the case of a few specific scenarios it'd be worthwhile.  But sents are never going to compete with defenders/corruptors in terms of their ability to debuff resistance.

The role of it being a magnifier/multiplier is why its chosen over just a damage boost (though that is in there too!). With other buffers on the team, +Damage eventually gets a diminishing return, especially with AT's with lower damage caps. -Res, as well as the Damage Proc both bypass damage caps by letting you multiply damage instead of just add. Oh, +Damage doesn't "really" scale better vs the purple patch as both incoming damage and debuffs are reduced by 0.48x at +4, its often just easier to boost damage than to lower resists. 

 

Comparisons to Defenders/Corruptors/Etc is super valid as while we are talking about a single target res debuff, Defender Trick arrow has a ST -20% res debuff + slow/immob on a base 4s rech, and a permanent -40% AoE -Res debuff they can apply each fight. Achilles' Heel is also -20% (unresistable technically) and anyone can use that on sets that accept the IO. The trick here is that these characters need to spend time either debuffing OR attacking, while a Sentinel can do both at once while also being armored to allow freedom with scouting out and marking targets. The addition of team-wide procs, damage, sustain, and -Mez/Special res all open up the Sentinel to being a more passive support while they do offense as well. 

 

In my experience, especially as a kitted out Blaster, is that most teams really only struggle vs big targets as most of a mob gets deleted in short order except for them. Stalkers and Sentinels combined with other team members could be the solution while they both "pay" for it with lower AoE capabilities than similar ATs.

 

 

 

 

 

[aetherson]

2 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Thanks for the reply @aetherson! Everything, even unresistables, are affected by the purple patch before anything else applies. The key here is that Damage Resistance resists Resistance Debuffs, which currently messes with a number of Sentinel primaries vs many enemies. For example, lets say you are an Archery Sentinel and you're fighting something with ~50% Lethal Resistance. Your 25% res debuff is actually resisted by 50%, making it only about 12.5%. If your debuff is unresistable, it will always be 15% (which matters for the proposed Mez and Special debuffs in there too!)

 

I know how damage resistance works.

 

So the deal is, resistable damage resistance always increases damage by the amount it says on the tin.

 

So, let's say you do 100 damage, with a 15% resistance debuff, against +0 opponents.

 

Against an opponent with a 0% resistance to your damage type, you do 115 damage, or 15% more than you'd do if you didn't have the resistance debuff.

 

Against an opponent with a 50% resistance to your damage type, you lower their resist by 7.5%, to 42.5%.  So you do 57.5 damage, or 15% more than you'd do if you didn't have the resistance debuff.

 

Against an opponent with a 90% resistance to your damage type, you lower their resist by 1.5%, to 88.5%.  So you do 11.5 damage, or 15% more than you'd do if you didn't have the resistance debuff.

 

An unresistable debuff is weirder.  In the same situations:

 

Against an opponent with a 0% resistance to your damage type, you do 115 damage, or 15% more than you'd do if your didn't have the resistance debuff.

 

Against an opponent with a 50% resistance to your damage type, you lower their resistance by 15%, to 35%.  So you do 65 damage, or 30% more than you'd do if you didn't have the resistance debuff.

 

Against an opponent with a 90% resistance to your damage type, you lower their resistance by 15%, to 75%.  So you do 25 damage, or 150% more than you'd do if you didn't have the resistance debuff.

 

Like, I think people get scared by hearing "your resistance debuff drops from 15% to 7.5%," but it's super unclear to me why we would want a character with resistance debuffs to add much more effective DPS against high-resistance opponents as against low-resistance ones.  What's the game design goal here?  Is the idea that high-resistance characters are like puzzle bosses that demand specific approaches?  That doesn't feel like it's an element of CoH design.  Is it just a general sense that high resistances are overly powerful against a few characters (like lethal and psi-oriented characters)?  I think there's a plan of record to make a big change to enemy resistances and try to make them a little more sensical, and that sounds like the right response to that problem, not give out a bunch of unresistable resistance debuffs.

 

2 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

 

Achilles' Heel is also -20% (unresistable technically)

That's a surprising assertion to me.  Is Achilles' Heel really unresistable?

[Galaxy Brain]

1 hour ago, aetherson said:

Like, I think people get scared by hearing "your resistance debuff drops from 15% to 7.5%," but it's super unclear to me why we would want a character with resistance debuffs to add much more effective DPS against high-resistance opponents as against low-resistance ones.  What's the game design goal here?  Is the idea that high-resistance characters are like puzzle bosses that demand specific approaches?  That doesn't feel like it's an element of CoH design.  Is it just a general sense that high resistances are overly powerful against a few characters (like lethal and psi-oriented characters)?  I think there's a plan of record to make a big change to enemy resistances and try to make them a little more sensical, and that sounds like the right response to that problem, not give out a bunch of unresistable resistance debuffs.

Thematically, having one Archetype able to "target and open up" enemies to allow themselves and allies more effectively take them down is a fun playstyle esp if it is only 1 target at a time. Sure, you can rip one robot down faster... out of the 25 in the mob. The lock into ST + the amount being relatively small compared to some of the BIG / AoE -Res powers available in proper support sets I feel evens this aspect out. 

 

The Key to me is that "marking a target" is the literal flashy part of playing a Sentinel, making that portion more exaggerated separates them from the crowd much like how Stalkers have their own ST mini-game that has them stand apart from other Melee's. As they are currently, they sort of have an odd identity where they have some blasting, some survival, and some debuffing, but the way it all melds together isn't as exciting as it could be. By shifting focus to a unique gameplay loop of prioritizing Ranged Single Target and team support through Offense it will carve out a better identity for them.

 

The debuff being unresistable reinforces this to ensure that if a Sentinel marks you, you're gonna feel it from them or the team taking advantage. The current amount of 15% is about in line with similar ST -Res debuffs, if not smaller than most all even looking at Mastermind values instead of Defender, and they do not have the rest of a support set to stack on top of that. The addition of -Mez Res and -Special res is there to support different types of powers as well to highlight that that particular target is in for a rough time. The ability to switch targets on command also circumvents the issue with targets dying/etc, and allows multiple Sentinels on a team to still spread the love while not being overwhelming on a single boss.

 

Just to understand the point a bit more, are you saying that the -15% res being unresistable does not add much in the grand scheme?

 

 

1 hour ago, aetherson said:

That's a surprising assertion to me.  Is Achilles' Heel really unresistable?

IIRC it is due to how the IO is applied. It grants a power to the target that applies the -20% res to themselves, which bypasses resistances.

 

You know what, it should actually be tested:

 

 

Well I'll be darned, for a long while I thought it had some oddity where it was not resisted due to being a granted power. There are *some* IO's that work like this, such as one of the -Slow ones though!

[aethereal]

7 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Just to understand the point a bit more, are you saying that the -15% res being unresistable does not add much in the grand scheme?

Yeah, I have a few quite different criticisms of this proposal:

 

1. I specifically think that resistance debuffs should not, by and large, be unresistable.  That makes them very up-and-down in terms of power in a way that's not at all legible to players.
2. I don't think that this really ends up giving a very compelling team role to sentinels (single-target modest resistance debuffs aren't in high demand), and it potentially compromises the amount of buff we'd be able to give them in terms of raw damage, and thus makes them less capable soloers in return for a not-very-compelling team role.
3. I don't think that this package of conditional effects and different benefits is easy for teams to work with.  It just seems complex to me.  Conditionally giving out small bonuses to damage and regen to allies and also if they hit their targets they potentially give heal/endurance to the sentinel?
4. (this one isn't really mine, I don't have a problem with it) I don't think the dev team is going to go for "sentinels constantly give -15% resistance to their target," and that we shouldn't invest effort in routes that the dev team is opposed to.

So those are all very separate criticisms.  Like, I don't think that each one has anything to do with each other one.

[Galaxy Brain]

2 hours ago, aethereal said:

Yeah, I have a few quite different criticisms of this proposal:

 

1. I specifically think that resistance debuffs should not, by and large, be unresistable.  That makes them very up-and-down in terms of power in a way that's not at all legible to players.

Well, yes and no... depending on how you look at it. A 15% unresistable debuff will always be -15%, unaffected by other stats the target may have (outside level). Sure, when you look at the scale of certain encounters it technically does way less or way more... but to the avg player it is still "Hey, the Sentinel made it so I hit for more damage, cool".

 

 

2 hours ago, aethereal said:

1. I don't think that this really ends up giving a very compelling team role to sentinels (single-target modest resistance debuffs aren't in high demand), and it potentially compromises the amount of buff we'd be able to give them in terms of raw damage, and thus makes them less capable soloers in return for a not-very-compelling team role.

The current proposal grants them -15% on their primary target at all times, on top of the current Opportunity procs (avg like 15% ish of base damage) on top of a further 10% damage boost while Opportunity is active. These all stack up in separate ways to make for a decent boost, with the added bonus of Allies being able to be boosted as well / take advantage. Basically by just doing their thing they both deal damage and magnify team performance at the same time.

 

The alternate method is to just make them deal more base damage.... at which point isn't the same topic gonna come up when you compare them to other Damage Dealers? 

 

 

2 hours ago, aethereal said:

1. I don't think that this package of conditional effects and different benefits is easy for teams to work with.  It just seems complex to me.  Conditionally giving out small bonuses to damage and regen to allies and also if they hit their targets they potentially give heal/endurance to the sentinel?

It breaks down like this:

• If you are within 60ft of a Sentinel, you get some thematic buffs to Perception stats while they build meter. You being in that range helps the Sentinel build meter, and any power you use on targets they mark (even if an AoE clips one and you didnt target them specifically!) is better.
• Once the Sentinel triggers Opportunity, you get a myriad of small buffs for being in range of the Sentinel, and in addition you also get to use the Opportunity procs on targets the Sentinel marks (even if you do not directly target the... target, a Fireball clipping a marked enemy will heal the caster and deal a bit more Proc damage to that guy)

There isn't much added "choice" here other than being a little coerced to stay within 60ft of your team mate and possibly pig pile the guy they mark. Everything else is gravy for your team as you can rapidly switch targets if need be + the team helps you get to your boost faster, which they also get to use. They get the opportunity procs too, not just the Sentinel, with the catch being they gotta hit targets that the Sent sets up. 

 

 

 

2 hours ago, aethereal said:

1. (this one isn't really mine, I don't have a problem with it) I don't think the dev team is going to go for "sentinels constantly give -15% resistance to their target," and that we shouldn't invest effort in routes that the dev team is opposed to.

Well, they currently are able to have 25% up half the time (in theory), and if that is an issue then we can go set by set at all the support powers that can easily, easily surpass that 12.5% average (at best) on a single target or more for AoE.

 

[Monos King]

6 hours ago, aetherson said:

Against a capped target, it's like a 150% resistance debuff.  I don't honestly see a lot of reason why we should want that in the game.

Funny thing is unresistable -res is already accessible to players if they really want them. I'll be taking guesses as to what those are.

 

6 hours ago, aetherson said:

Assuming that's the case

It is. Unless for some reason the power were marked to ignore level differences (something else entirely which is actually ALSO player accessible, taking guesses.)

[Wavicle]

7 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

The alternate method is to just make them deal more base damage.... at which point isn't the same topic gonna come up when you compare them to other Damage Dealers? 

It shouldn't if it's done right.

Again, Stalkers, Scrappers, and Blasters (the other three ATs that really don't contribute anything besides damage) don't all do identical damage but they all do sufficient damage.

I see absolutely no reason Sentinels can't also fit into that sweet spot.

 

Blaster>Stalker>Scrapper>Sentinel (with a little overlap here and there) does NOT have to mean that Sentinels are so much lower that they suck, nor does it have to mean that Blasters are outclassed.

Edited January 15, 2021 by Wavicle

[Monos King]

1 hour ago, Wavicle said:

I see absolutely no reason Sentinels can't also fit into that sweet spot.

I can't see why I would play a Sentinel over a blaster or scrapp in terms of role if Sentinels are stripped of their "group performance" enhancing element, and instead just receive a damage boost. They would have no identity, and just become a primary/secondary combo that could be simulated by various other ATs with ease.

 

This at the least results in something unique for an AT that struggles to have individuality once the novelty of having both range and armor is outleveled. It especially keeps things meaningful once raw damage overcomes the need for protection. What some of you might call overly complex I consider engaging.

I disagree heavily with the "just amp their damage" perspective.

[Wavicle]

25 minutes ago, Monos King said:

I can't see why I would play a Sentinel over a blaster or scrapp in terms of role if Sentinels are stripped of their "group performance" enhancing element, and instead just receive a damage boost. They would have no identity, and just become a primary/secondary combo that could be simulated by various other ATs with ease.

 

This at the least results in something unique for an AT that struggles to have individuality once the novelty of having both range and armor is outleveled. It especially keeps things meaningful once raw damage overcomes the need for protection. What some of you might call overly complex I consider engaging.

I disagree heavily with the "just amp their damage" perspective.

I don't want the Support element removed and I am not opposed to it being strengthened. But I feel strongly the damage should ALSO come up or else the basic problem will not be solved.

[Replacement]

In regards to what this version of Sentinel would bring to a party, I think it's worth noting how it changes the gameplay of a party. 

 

That is: everyone reaps rewards by doing stuff to the big guy with the glowing crosshairs on his feet.  This sense of "calling out" priority targets would have a tangible effect on your party's behavior, just as surely as having a Tanker in your party means (at least in theory) that you jump into the pack after them.

 

Sure, it's not necessarily filling some hole in the AT roles -- but we already know a few controllers can replace a tanker too.  But it's offering something different, with a different playstyle focus for your group.  It's offering identity.

[Galaxy Brain]

Just to get some semblance of a measure here, lets look at a power that a handful of the comparison AT's can get:

 

 

 

Scrapper Dark Blast = 62.56 -> Crits for +62.56, base 10% chance = +6.26 = 68.82

 

Stalker Dark Blast = 55.61-> Crits for +55.61, base 10% chance but can naturally be up to 31% = 5.56 ~ 17.24 = 61.17 ~ 72.85

 

Corruptor Dark Blast = 41.71 -> Scourge for +41.71, ....I'm not sure on how to quantify Scourge, but lets say over time is is a 25% chance = 10.43 = 52.14

 

Blaster Dark Blast = 62.56 -> With defiance, we're looking at like an avg +15% dam on attacks you keep tossing out too = 71.94

 

Sentinel Dark Blast = 52.83 -> + ~7.93 proc from Off Opp + 5% to 25% res Debuff, though that 20% is up "half the time".... as is that proc, so more like ~ 3.96 and 15% res debuff

-> 55.47/56.79 + 4.16/4.26 = 59.63 ~ 61.05

 

New Sentinel Dark Blast = 52.83 -> + 10%  Dam Buff + ~7.93 Proc + 15% Res Debuff (constant), with the changes to Opportunity in a team/hitting your target lets assume it is up 75% of the time and not 50% -> 7.5%  Dam Buff + 5.94 + 15% Res Debuff 

-> 56.79 + 5.94 -> 65.31+6.83 = 72.14 

 

 

Luckily, Stalkers have a 1.00 damage mod. Many people want Sentinels to share this:

 

Current = 55.61 + 4.17 proc -> 62.77 ~ 68.75  (5% ~ 13% boost)

Proposed = 55.61 + 6.26 proc -> 75.94 (5% Boost)

 

At a *glance*, Sentinels seem like they're already in the ballpark for a comparable ST attack, lets see what happens when we slot enhancements though:

 

95% Damage Enh:

 

1.00 New Sentinel =  136.70

Scrapper = 134.19

Blaster = 131.38

Stalker = 119.28 ~ 142.06  (130.67 avg)

New Sentinel = 129.86

1.00 Sentinel = 118.24 ~ 129.50  (123.87 avg)  

Sentinel = 112.33 ~ 123.03  (117.68 avg) 

Corruptor = 101.66

 

Ordered by damage (avg), the proposed Sentinel with a 1.00 damage mod actually pulls ahead for this single ST blast comparison which is interesting, while Corruptors are in last place. Now, this is a very narrow scope as it does not account for additional IO's or Debuffs that ATs can slot/use (Esp on the Corr), or the Blaster's ability to stack different self buffs. Just the basics.

 

What stood out though is that the Criticals/Scourges scaled off the attack's total damage and not the base damage which Opportunity uses. Lets take a peek at  what that'd look like:

 

 

1.00 New Sentinel =  144.07

New Sentinel = 136.87

1.00 Sentinel = 122.40 ~ 134.06  (128.23 avg)  

Sentinel = 116.28 ~ 127.36  (121.82 avg) 

 

The current Sentinel would certainly be better but still in about the same spot, while the "New" Sentinel would top the chart (before X factors). 

 

 

 

 

 

[arthurh35353]

And not a Defender is sight, of course! 😛 Even if they are a blast too.

[aetherson]

17 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

The current proposal grants them -15% on their primary target at all times, on top of the current Opportunity procs (avg like 15% ish of base damage) on top of a further 10% damage boost while Opportunity is active. These all stack up in separate ways to make for a decent boost, with the added bonus of Allies being able to be boosted as well / take advantage. Basically by just doing their thing they both deal damage and magnify team performance at the same time.

 

The alternate method is to just make them deal more base damage.... at which point isn't the same topic gonna come up when you compare them to other Damage Dealers?

 

To be clear, I think that Sentinels need something more going on than just a damage boost.  They also need a damage boost.

 

Your proposal, I feel, largely says, "We'll give them a damage boost and that damage boost goes by way of a single-target resist debuff, and so that's the other thing that they mostly get -- a resist debuff that amplifies team damage to a single target."

 

That damage amplification is significant, but it's single-target and I feel that that's not a highly compelling role in the current meta.  I think there are only a few times when you really are like "oh shit, we really need to up our damage against a single target," and if you are in that situation, you probably want to up your damage A LOT against that single target and you're looking for like a sonic defender or something that can give you a much larger resistance debuff.

 

So what I'm saying is, give the sentinels a damage boost that's just a damage boost, not a resist debuff -- that allows you to be more generous with their own damage and it scales better against high-level opponents -- and then pair that damage boost with something they offer the team that's not a resist debuff.  My suggestion was a powerful but short-lived accuracy debuff, but maybe it's something different.  If we want sentinels to watch out for the team, maybe it's a long-recharge team-level 10 second "god mode," where you just give people a little breathing room when they're about to be overwhelmed.  Or maybe it's like...  their area attacks also spawn a pseudopet in the middle of enemy spawns that taunts opponents briefly and gets them to bunch up close (I don't know that that's actually practical with game mechanics).  Or something else that's a little unique.  Unfortunately, with the current meta, it's hard to find stuff for sentinels to do in full teams that isn't obviously stepping on other people's toes, since so many of the mechanics in the game are low-value in the current meta.

[Wavicle]

1 hour ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Just to get some semblance of a measure here, lets look at a power that a handful of the comparison AT's can get:

 

 

 

Scrapper Dark Blast = 62.56 -> Crits for +62.56, base 10% chance = +6.26 = 68.82

 

Stalker Dark Blast = 55.61-> Crits for +55.61, base 10% chance but can naturally be up to 31% = 5.56 ~ 17.24 = 61.17 ~ 72.85

 

Corruptor Dark Blast = 41.71 -> Scourge for +41.71, ....I'm not sure on how to quantify Scourge, but lets say over time is is a 25% chance = 10.43 = 52.14

 

Blaster Dark Blast = 62.56 -> With defiance, we're looking at like an avg +15% dam on attacks you keep tossing out too = 71.94

 

Sentinel Dark Blast = 52.83 -> + ~7.93 proc from Off Opp + 5% to 25% res Debuff, though that 20% is up "half the time".... as is that proc, so more like ~ 3.96 and 15% res debuff

-> 55.47/56.79 + 4.16/4.26 = 59.63 ~ 61.05

 

New Sentinel Dark Blast = 52.83 -> + 10%  Dam Buff + ~7.93 Proc + 15% Res Debuff (constant), with the changes to Opportunity in a team/hitting your target lets assume it is up 75% of the time and not 50% -> 7.5%  Dam Buff + 5.94 + 15% Res Debuff 

-> 56.79 + 5.94 -> 65.31+6.83 = 72.14 

 

 

Luckily, Stalkers have a 1.00 damage mod. Many people want Sentinels to share this:

 

Current = 55.61 + 4.17 proc -> 62.77 ~ 68.75  (5% ~ 13% boost)

Proposed = 55.61 + 6.26 proc -> 75.94 (5% Boost)

 

At a *glance*, Sentinels seem like they're already in the ballpark for a comparable ST attack, lets see what happens when we slot enhancements though:

 

95% Damage Enh:

 

1.00 New Sentinel =  136.70

Scrapper = 134.19

Blaster = 131.38

Stalker = 119.28 ~ 142.06  (130.67 avg)

New Sentinel = 129.86

1.00 Sentinel = 118.24 ~ 129.50  (123.87 avg)  

Sentinel = 112.33 ~ 123.03  (117.68 avg) 

Corruptor = 101.66

 

Ordered by damage (avg), the proposed Sentinel with a 1.00 damage mod actually pulls ahead for this single ST blast comparison which is interesting, while Corruptors are in last place. Now, this is a very narrow scope as it does not account for additional IO's or Debuffs that ATs can slot/use (Esp on the Corr), or the Blaster's ability to stack different self buffs. Just the basics.

 

What stood out though is that the Criticals/Scourges scaled off the attack's total damage and not the base damage which Opportunity uses. Lets take a peek at  what that'd look like:

 

 

1.00 New Sentinel =  144.07

New Sentinel = 136.87

1.00 Sentinel = 122.40 ~ 134.06  (128.23 avg)  

Sentinel = 116.28 ~ 127.36  (121.82 avg) 

 

The current Sentinel would certainly be better but still in about the same spot, while the "New" Sentinel would top the chart (before X factors). 

 

 

 

 

 

It is incorrect to include the sentinels Debuff but not to include corruptor Debuffs. It is also incorrect to include the Sentinel debuff on the Sentinel’s damage but not on everybody else’s damage. Debuffs apply to everybody on the team, so it is incorrect to include it in the sentinels DPS but not in everybody else’s.

[Galaxy Brain]

7 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

It is incorrect to include the sentinels Debuff but not to include corruptor Debuffs. It is also incorrect to include the Sentinel debuff on the Sentinel’s damage but not on everybody else’s damage. Debuffs apply to everybody on the team, so it is incorrect to include it in the sentinels DPS but not in everybody else’s.

Yes and no.

 

1) Not all Corruptor sets have the same debuffs, all Sentinel Sets will have the same debuffs through Opportunity. I made a note of this in the post stating that this does not include Corruptor debuffs/IOs/other outside sources (like the Blaster using Build Up in it's secondary). If there are specific examples then by all means.

 

2) If you'd like, I can calculate the values that the Sentinel would provide to all these examples as well, I was more just looking at them in isolation when comparing a Sentinel to X other AT!

 

 

 

@aetherson, when it comes to adding more AoE Damage it gets super muddy since.... well Blasters exist. Unless they surpass a Blaster in AoE performance then I don't see the "where do they fit???" argument going away. What they should bring to the table is a unique, fun playstyle that allows them to do decent damage (being a boss melter is fun too!) while simultaneously offering team support that also happens to benefit them equally.

 

 

 

Big edit: something that has occurred to me is that this all sorta touches on the Primary more than anything as it related to Offense. Sentinels are also known for their very unique versions of Armor secondaries, and perhaps there is design space there? Players are always coming up with an "armored support" class, so having some more things like /Rad's Support-lite powers here and there could spice things up.

Edited January 15, 2021 by Galaxy Brain

[Wavicle]

You also get inaccuracies by including Sentinel debuffs but not including buildup on the classes that get it.

 

With all of these, corruptor buffs, build up, etc., the Sentinel falls further and further behind.

[Wavicle]

What you have done here is compare solo damage. Well that is not relevant to the discussion. Solo performance of sentinels is fine. It’s team performance that we need to look at.

[Galaxy Brain]

Just now, Wavicle said:

What you have done here is compare solo damage. Well that is not relevant to the discussion. Solo performance of sentinels is fine. It’s team performance that we need to look at.

Teams get hella messy. Give me the criteria you want to see.