Crazy Controllers - 2021 Edition

[brasilgringo]

Please update the post title to "Kwazy Kwontrollers" - feels better D

 

Amazing stuff!

[Captain_Paragon]

@Frosticus I know the answer to thw question but would you share build? Or give tips and tricks where and what u slotted for? I was looking at pics and see you have the shields is that for phantasm? In my build I worked out I missed all those. 

 

I dont mind posting my build once I'm at home currently in work though. 

[Frosticus]

1 hour ago, Captain_Paragon said:

@Frosticus I know the answer to thw question but would you share build? Or give tips and tricks where and what u slotted for? I was looking at pics and see you have the shields is that for phantasm? In my build I worked out I missed all those. 

 

I dont mind posting my build once I'm at home currently in work though. 

Shields are just for lotg or when I team. I don't spend time tending to phantasm.

 

I'm nearly done an ill/cold guide, just digging in to the nitty gritty aspects of some key mechanics to help others understand why this combo sings so well. I hope to have it up over the weekend.

 

That will have all the builds that I use and several interesting options to consider. I'll also talk about some other cool illusion pairings for those that are adverse to cold temperatures 🙂. I want to keep this thread mostly just to the things I knock off (or others if they want to post). PM me if you want me to have a gander at your build in the mean time. 

[Coyote]

At the very least, this thread is illustrating that it may be worthwhile to put in the effort to prepare multiple builds for a character. I've never done it, but now I'm considering having an AV build that swaps out travel and AoE powers for survival and single-target damage powers.

[Frosticus]

2 hours ago, Coyote said:

At the very least, this thread is illustrating that it may be worthwhile to put in the effort to prepare multiple builds for a character. I've never done it, but now I'm considering having an AV build that swaps out travel and AoE powers for survival and single-target damage powers.

I'd definitely recommend one build for solo and one for teaming for any character that someone spends considerable time playing. If you enjoy low level content I'd even do a third build focused on exemplaring down.

 

Ease of access to IOs, acquiring multiple t3 level incarnates and being able to switch builds away from a trainer make that a fairly easy recommendation.

 

I'm not sure I'd recommend two dedicated solo builds like I have going unless you are specifically challenging some limitation of the game. For instance, nearly any situation that I flip to my "survival build" could have been covered by just using some inspirations and doing it much faster with my "damage build".

Edited January 28, 2021 by Frosticus

[Hjarki]

On 1/16/2021 at 5:36 PM, Frosticus said:

That said, ill/cold is still better at killing AV/GM's, maybe by a large amount. The stacking -res is just extreme on top of benumb. But I could see myself playing an ill/ta at x8 settings and I don't really find that fun on ill/cold.

I'm not sure I entirely agree. While you can theoretically stack multiple Sleet, this tends not to work out all that often in practice unless the AV/GM's own mechanics preclude it from moving. Likewise, Heat Loss 'stacks', but the long recharge:duration on the -res means that you're only getting a fraction of the stacking benefit. In contrast, the two stacking -res on Trick Arrow stack in a very reliable fashion. Even if the AV/GM moves (which it would not be natively inclined to do and which you can prevent much of the time anyway), you can easily lay down another Disruption Arrow. However, Cold has more reliable -regen than TA due to the long recharge on TA.

 

I'm also not sure Benumb is really better than what TA delivers in the same department since Benumb is resistible while TA's debuffs generally aren't (or are only partially unresistible).

 

On the other hand, I don't think TA is appreciably better than Cold for AE. While TA has AE, it's just not very good. Acid Arrow can take a lot of procs but at the end of the day it's basically the same as trying to transform Sleet into an AE. Oil Slick Arrow is a bit like a Fireball with the recharge of an Inferno and a clunky activation condition. Realistically, Trick Arrow is better than Cold Domination at x8 less because it blows things up than because the combination of Superior Invisibility + Flash Arrow means it doesn't have to.

 

I haven't run around solo'ing AV/GM much (mainly because I find it somewhat boring), but my own experience with the revamped TA is that the 'sexy' powers like EMP Arrow and Oil Slick Arrow are actually a lot less important than the 'boring' powers like Entangling/Flash/Ice/Poison Gas.

 

[Frosticus]

38 minutes ago, Hjarki said:

I'm not sure I entirely agree. While you can theoretically stack multiple Sleet, this tends not to work out all that often in practice unless the AV/GM's own mechanics preclude it from moving. Likewise, Heat Loss 'stacks', but the long recharge:duration on the -res means that you're only getting a fraction of the stacking benefit. In contrast, the two stacking -res on Trick Arrow stack in a very reliable fashion. Even if the AV/GM moves (which it would not be natively inclined to do and which you can prevent much of the time anyway), you can easily lay down another Disruption Arrow. However, Cold has more reliable -regen than TA due to the long recharge on TA.

 

I'm also not sure Benumb is really better than what TA delivers in the same department since Benumb is resistible while TA's debuffs generally aren't (or are only partially unresistible).

 

On the other hand, I don't think TA is appreciably better than Cold for AE. While TA has AE, it's just not very good. Acid Arrow can take a lot of procs but at the end of the day it's basically the same as trying to transform Sleet into an AE. Oil Slick Arrow is a bit like a Fireball with the recharge of an Inferno and a clunky activation condition. Realistically, Trick Arrow is better than Cold Domination at x8 less because it blows things up than because the combination of Superior Invisibility + Flash Arrow means it doesn't have to.

 

I haven't run around solo'ing AV/GM much (mainly because I find it somewhat boring), but my own experience with the revamped TA is that the 'sexy' powers like EMP Arrow and Oil Slick Arrow are actually a lot less important than the 'boring' powers like Entangling/Flash/Ice/Poison Gas.

 

Disruption arrow doesn't self stack, that was changed with the recent TA overhaul. I mean for a split second it will I guess. 

A TA troller can reliably put out 45% -res to a single target. Acid can take 2 -res procs, but it is far from reliable and not a great damage power so I'd be surprised if someone spammed it given the duration of the debuffs that it packs vs the animation time and low damage. 

 

There is no theory about self stacking sleet. You don't need immobs or taunts to keep things in a sleet patch for long enough to do its magic. It is up to a 45 second -res debuff. triple stacked is more common than not when fighting anything with staying power. I reliably triple stack it on my cold/fire defender too. 

Infrig rolls achilies at 90% proc rate, while also taking 3 damage procs. So not only does it replicate what you are getting from entangling arrow, it also hits pretty hard in the process.

HL is a buff first and foremost. But it is pretty nice to help spike up -res at the start of the fight before multi sleet kicks in.

 

The 50% unresistable debuffs of TA (-dam is probably what you are comparing to with benumb) is both a positive and a negative. It is a positive if your target has appreciable damage resistance because it will still lower their damage output without being resisted. It is a negative because it means that -res doesn't amplify it as much.  Cpt Powerhouse did that specifically to avoid some of the insane -damage debuffing potential seen in poison, cold and dark when they amplify it with their -res (especially stacking -res). It lowers the ceiling, but raises the floor for TA. Against most targets /cold will floor their damage output quite rapidly.  

 

Unresistable or resistable, both cold and TA are still impacted by the purple patch, so 54's reduce the effectiveness of everything by ~35%

[Olly]

When it comes to the harder solo content, I find the biggest barrier is regen. You can mitigate incoming damage a variety of ways for different solo-build AT's, but being able to out-DPS an AV's regen (like Khan, STF, or the incarnate trials) is such a bear. Particularly if you're running no temps (i.e. no summons, no envenomed daggers) like @Frosticus was. Even with -res, I'm not sure you could do it without some form of -regen.  For reference, e.daggers apply -250% regen at level 50 per hit (source: https://archive.paragonwiki.com/wiki/Temporary_Power:_Envenomed_Dagger).  For Khan, I read somewhere that you have to be throwing out the equivalent of 700 dps (damage per second) to get past his regen, for example.  

 

Not really a numbers person, but I would think those are  the -res equivalent targets for building an Ill/TA if someone wants to do what Frosty did on their Ill/Cold.

 

PS Re: War Walker -- if you don't know to kill the shield generator, his regen is really, really steep... just saying... for a friend >.>

[Tacheyon]

It's also why /Traps is a good pairing with Illusion.  It's has everything but the kitchen sink in it.  Poison Trap to kill regen, Acid Mortar for the -Def and -Res, Seeker Drones for the -To Hit.  Heck Triage Beacon to keep you topped up.  Yes it does mean setting up a Kill Box and having the challenge to keep the AV in it, but the CD's on these powers are not that big you can't reset somewhere else.  Plus you can always use Teleport to move things around as well.

 

I have used /Cold on MM's (Demons & Ninjas) but I never found it that great or OP.  But then again I probably wasn't slotting things correctly in any case.  This thread makes me what to revisit them.

 

 

[rizlazz]

7 minutes ago, Tacheyon said:

Plus you can always use Teleport to move things around as well.

 

 

you are talking about TP of the bad guy into the kill box right? or do I need to immediately roll 27 /traps toons....

[Psyonico]

19 minutes ago, rizlazz said:

you are talking about TP of the bad guy into the kill box right? or do I need to immediately roll 27 /traps toons....

You can TP Acid Mortar/FFG/Seekers

 

You cannot TP Poison Trap/Trip Mine/Time Bomb

[Captain_Paragon]

I've just finished soloing all the AVs for the portal jockey accolade. As I started the arc I was doing lvl50 AVs by the end I was doing lvl53 on my EN/Bio scrapper. Anti Matter was definitely the hardest but also the one I had to examp down to.

 

Also Managed to solo Jurrasic, Adamastor and kraken. Also did ITF solo but only lvl51. He is fully specced out but only tier 3 in Incarnates. Which in working on. 

 

With that council war walker I have tried multiple times but he just out regens anything I throw at him. If I do start making progress heals or end recovery quickly lose all progress. I'm hoping to get him done sometime once I have tier 4s though. 

 

Sorry i know it's about controllers but wanted to share. 😄

[DocMidknight]

Sharing is caring........besides that's awesome 

[Olly]

19 hours ago, Captain_Paragon said:

With that council war walker I have tried multiple times but he just out regens anything I throw at him.

 

21 hours ago, Olly said:

PS Re: War Walker -- if you don't know to kill the shield generator, his regen is really, really steep... just saying... for a friend >.>

 

I'm assuming you didn't kill the shield gen... iirc it's at the northwest corner away from the main area.

[Captain_Paragon]

4 hours ago, Olly said:

 

 

I'm assuming you didn't kill the shield gen... iirc it's at the northwest corner away from the main area.

Yea I was just doing it with a group this afternoon and someone said about it. Then the lightbulb went off. 🤪

 

Will give it a try next attempt!

[DocMidknight]

So I'm thinking of making a new troller.......leaning towards dark/cold and was wondering if anyone ahs any thoughts on that pairing for Crazy Controller fun.. While haunts aren't as strong as PA I think they may bring some fun to the table

[Frosticus]

33 minutes ago, DocMidknight said:

So I'm thinking of making a new troller.......leaning towards dark/cold and was wondering if anyone ahs any thoughts on that pairing for Crazy Controller fun.. While haunts aren't as strong as PA I think they may bring some fun to the table

 

Haunts are very different than PA. Their description/power listing is a bit misleading which might lead to expectations not being met.

That said, dark/cold should have no issues bringing down lots of tough targets and is a very good controller.

[DocMidknight]

@Frosticus...thanks. I've leveled up a dark/dark and dark/storm to 50 and I'm currently working a dark/time up with my goal being to see what a proc'd out dark/cold can do, I love proc'n dark control for some added fun,

 

[Olly]

I rolled an ill/cold and an ill/therm in Brainstorm (Beta). what I managed:

• ill/cold: +4/*8 MoITF 
• ill/therm: +4/*8 MoITF 
• ill/therm: War Walker
• ill/therm: Solo Khan. Took about 3 hrs. Used temps, ranged summons and insps, but did not use any mail-in insps. Fairly certain build can MoKhan it, but I'll be damned if I solo Khan for the 6th or so time with the crawl speed of a Mo attempt. Maybe in a year or so.

As I mentioned, fairly certain the trick is getting an AT that has built-in envenomed daggers, aka -regen; as well as having ill's PA as an aggro magnet. Bonus with therm was the Forge (+40% dmg teammate buff) and the team heal. I might run the ill/therm through a few more TF's, but Khan has been the hardest tf (outside of STF) for me, so I figure the ill/therm should be able to handle the rest.

 

 

Edited February 4, 2021 by Olly

[oedipus_tex]

Thermal is an underrated set IMO. Not quite Cold Dom levels of soloability but damn good. On a team I'd probably rather have a Therm than a Cold to be honest. It's definitely loads better than the other heal sets like Pain or Empathy. Only really held back by the difficulty of stacking Melt Armor due to its recharge and small radius.

[Olly]

9 hours ago, oedipus_tex said:

Thermal is an underrated set IMO. Not quite Cold Dom levels of soloability but damn good.

 

I'm curious... how do you define "levels of soloability"?  And how do you find Cold Dom to be at a higher level?

Edited February 4, 2021 by Olly

[Coyote]

30 minutes ago, Olly said:

 

I'm curious... how do you define "levels of soloability"?  And how do you find Cold Dom to be at a higher level?

 

Yeah, I'm kinda agreeing with this... Cold has much better End management, so that may be a thing, but it has very little self-defense ability other than -Recharge (and -Damage for a single opponent). Thermal has a self-heal to top up between fights. Both have to depend on IO set bonuses for Defense to solo well, but that works well backed up by heals. My main problem with Thermal is the -Res power is so much weaker than Cold's and you don't get +Recovery, so it's weaker on damage, not survivability.

[Frosticus]

28 minutes ago, Olly said:

 

I'm curious... how do you define "levels of soloability"?  And how do you find Cold Dom to be at a higher level?

I think everyone will have a different answer for this. I know how I define it and did as such in the OP - no insp/temps/lore/amps.

If I was going to employ any of those I would change the build accordingly, maybe drastically.

 

I dont personally see any difference between a scrapper using envenom daggers and a defender using temp pets. Similarly, once I use insp I don't see anything holding back the flow of super insp and/or emailing them. But that is specific to me and this particular character.

 

Others have different parameters and that is fine. I know there are people that have solo'd khan in like 15 mins with temps and insp, so there is a pretty big grey area of what "solo" means and subsequently what "levels of soloability" could be interpreted as.

[Olly]

1 hour ago, Olly said:

 

I'm curious... how do you define "levels of soloability"?  And how do you find Cold Dom to be at a higher level?

 

7 minutes ago, Frosticus said:

I think everyone will have a different answer for this. I know how I define it and did as such in the OP - no insp/temps/lore/amps.

If I was going to employ any of those I would change the build accordingly, maybe drastically.

 

I dont personally see any difference between a scrapper using envenom daggers and a defender using temp pets. Similarly, once I use insp I don't see anything holding back the flow of super insp and/or emailing them. But that is specific to me and this particular character.

 

Others have different parameters and that is fine. I know there are people that have solo'd khan in like 15 mins with temps and insp, so there is a pretty big grey area of what "solo" means and subsequently what "levels of soloability" could be interpreted as.

 

Which is why I asked. Cold Dom is a completely diff AT and powerset; it doesn't even have -regen powers. So I wonder what the comparison is.

[Frosticus]

57 minutes ago, Coyote said:

 

Yeah, I'm kinda agreeing with this... Cold has much better End management, so that may be a thing, but it has very little self-defense ability other than -Recharge (and -Damage for a single opponent). Thermal has a self-heal to top up between fights. Both have to depend on IO set bonuses for Defense to solo well, but that works well backed up by heals. My main problem with Thermal is the -Res power is so much weaker than Cold's and you don't get +Recovery, so it's weaker on damage, not survivability.

I think sleet is underrated as a mitigative tool because it is such a powerful offensive tool.

 

i don't personally think either set is terrific if your goal is to solo, not compared to sets like dark or traps.  Cold has little to help recover from hits and therm has little to slow them down. Both can be made fantastic with the right pairing and IO's though. Cold has a much higher ceiling than therm in terms of what it can accomplish before employing assistance aids like insp/temps. I can't forsee many things that either set couldn't accomplish with temps/insp in play though.