"The Game is not Balanced around IO's"..... should it be?

[Bill Z Bubba]

9 minutes ago, Hyperstrike said:

Bill, you're projecting.

I'm not trying to be nasty.
Nor am I trying to be insulting.

I'm making a very simple point, which seems to be drawing an outsized reaction.

What you're doing is continuing to insult the rest of us by stating all some want are more rewards and it's all about that while ignoring that you're flatly wrong.

 

I'll put it in smaller words for you. Asking for higher diffs with rewards is not the same as just wanting more rewards. What part of that is so difficult for you to understand?

Edited January 26, 2021 by Bill Z Bubba

[Yomo Kimyata]

1 hour ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Why? What's the difference between being geared up to handle +0/x1 versus +2/x2? My rewards go up then, why shouldn't they for +6/x10? And how, exactly, do you stop the increased inf/xp gain and drop chances from having more enemies to defeat?

Actually, if I had my druthers, one would get the same reward from +0 as you would for +2 (or +6 if it happens).  I mean, you get the same reward from a +1 Council minion as you do from a +1 Carnival minion, so why make the distinction one of reward?  Maybe we would see teams doing +0/x8 Carnie missions in PI rather than +4/x8 Council missions.  Who knows?  But I don't have my druthers, so the point is mainly moot!

 

I do agree that more enemies should lead to more rewards, but my opinion is also that I'd like rewards to be capped at x8 for much the same reason I don't want the aggro cap lifted.  It's just fishing with dynamite at that point.  But that opinion is also mainly moot, since I'm almost completely lacking on druthers.

[Bill Z Bubba]

4 minutes ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

Actually, if I had my druthers, one would get the same reward from +0 as you would for +2 (or +6 if it happens).  I mean, you get the same reward from a +1 Council minion as you do from a +1 Carnival minion, so why make the distinction one of reward?  Maybe we would see teams doing +0/x8 Carnie missions in PI rather than +4/x8 Council missions.  Who knows?  But I don't have my druthers, so the point is mainly moot!

 

I do agree that more enemies should lead to more rewards, but my opinion is also that I'd like rewards to be capped at x8 for much the same reason I don't want the aggro cap lifted.  It's just fishing with dynamite at that point.  But that opinion is also mainly moot, since I'm almost completely lacking on druthers.

Fair enough. On my wishlist would be the ability to have a aggro cap's worth of enemies in every spawn.

[Neiska]

12 minutes ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

Actually, if I had my druthers, one would get the same reward from +0 as you would for +2 (or +6 if it happens).  I mean, you get the same reward from a +1 Council minion as you do from a +1 Carnival minion, so why make the distinction one of reward?  Maybe we would see teams doing +0/x8 Carnie missions in PI rather than +4/x8 Council missions.  Who knows?  But I don't have my druthers, so the point is mainly moot!

 

I do agree that more enemies should lead to more rewards, but my opinion is also that I'd like rewards to be capped at x8 for much the same reason I don't want the aggro cap lifted.  It's just fishing with dynamite at that point.  But that opinion is also mainly moot, since I'm almost completely lacking on druthers.

Honest question,

 

Why increase rewards only by "number" and not "level" of enemies? I mean, lets have a thought experement.

 

For arguements sake, lets say all enemies gave the same amount of inf/exp, regardless if it was -1, +0, 1, 2, 3, or 4, and that only increasing the how many modifer would grant additonal rewards. If that was the case, why would anyone want or even desire to run +4? Personally, I probially wouldn't care to.

 

The difference here, is that "you" can lower your encounter level and spawn amount, and get those rewards. Lowering the rewards for higher difficulty only "punishes" others who do so. So why try to inject and "force" an artifical standard that people already have access to if they wish? Why "browbeat" them into sub-standardization? 

 

And why not lift the aggro cap? I mean, if a tanker wants to aggro an entire map playing solo and have that epic 1 man army moment, why shouldn't he?

 

Again, I have no desire to offend or argue, I am genuinely curious as to the logic or context of your statement.

[Apparition]

7 minutes ago, Neiska said:

And why not lift the aggro cap? I mean, if a tanker wants to aggro an entire map playing solo and have that epic 1 man army moment, why shouldn't he?

 

Because it wouldn't be limited to only a Tanker soloing.  It would quickly become expected behavior again for Tankers and Brutes to herd entire maps and have Blasters/Corruptors/Defenders/Dominators/what have you sit at the entrance and twiddle their thumbs, because that would be the most efficient way of playing.  And at that point, I'd have to start preventing PUG Tankers and Brutes from joining my teams 'cause I will just not play that way.

 

No thank you.

[Neiska]

3 minutes ago, Apparition said:

 

Because it wouldn't be limited to only a Tanker soloing.  It would quickly become expected behavior again for Tankers and Brutes to herd entire maps and have Blasters/Corruptors/Defenders/Dominators/what have you sit at the entrance and twiddle their thumbs, because that would be the most efficient way of playing.  And at that point, I'd have to start preventing PUG Tankers and Brutes from joining my teams 'cause I will just not play that way.

 

No thank you.

A fair point, I did not consider that. So how about a compromise, say an enable option? That way it would be up to inviduals choice if they desired to play in such a manner or not? I do concede your point, looking at (achem) other gaming communities. But for solo play only? I see why it couldnt be an option for those that wish to experience such.

[Brutal Justice]

This is an mmo, an mmo that encourages teaming.  I want to feel useful on teams.  I want teamwork on teams.  

 

I feel teams are the lifeblood of this game.  The community is the lifeblood of this game.  If people are made to feel superfluous in team settings, then in my eyes, that is unhealthy for the game.  

 

Unfortunately this is the current feeling of the game, which has caused my personal playtime of the game to crater.  The most beloved game I have ever played, for so many years and countless hours.  

 

What is the root of so many people asking about game balance?  

Answer.  IOs 

 

What is it that people achieve with IOs that makes people question balance?  What is it that people chase the most with IOs?

Answer.  Defense soft caps.  

 

If non “tank” archetypes were hard capped at 40% defense it would solve almost all issues usually brought up.

 

 It would have little to no effect on the leveling experience or speed, except by those elite few who softcap immediately upon zoning into Atlas.  

 

It would have zero effect on SO builds.  

 

It would have zero effect on moderate IO builds from beginners just experimenting and getting into IOs.  

 

It would have zero effect on people’s concerns of money money money.  

 

You would not all of the sudden feel like you live in Jack’s 3 minion world.  

 

It would really only affect probably half the people on this forum in any sort of negative manner.  

 

It would greatly help the teaming experience, which I mentioned earlier as very important in my eyes.  It would not require great amounts of dev work and game restructuring.  “Squishy” toons would still be very durable.  It’s a nerf with very few negative effects and many positive ones.  

 

People don’t like nerfs.  Sometimes nerfs are necessary for the health of a game.  You can solo in this game, but it’s not a solo game.  Do they make online solo play games?   What is the average life span of a player in a solo game?   A common complaint about Champions Online, which so many of us probably tried out after the snap?   No reason to team.  

 

Bring back the value of teaming!  Not just reward chasing! Hard cap tanks and brutes at 45% defense.  HEATs and VEATs at 43%.  Everybody else at 40%.  

 

PS.  I know the incarnate soft cap is higher.  

[Yomo Kimyata]

47 minutes ago, Neiska said:

 

 

For arguements sake, lets say all enemies gave the same amount of inf/exp, regardless if it was -1, +0, 1, 2, 3, or 4, and that only increasing the how many modifer would grant additonal rewards. If that was the case, why would anyone want or even desire to run +4? Personally, I probially wouldn't care to.

 

 

You answered your own question!  You may not care to, but anyone seeking to reward themselves with challenge certainly would.  In my opinion, and in my personal philosophy, it would separate grinding for reward from playing for challenge.  If you want to play -1/x8 council farms and I want to play +4/x8 Carnie missions, great!  And as you say, you would get to choose to fight who and what you please, so you could get the same rewards as I would and have a much easier time of it.  Win win!

 

After all, the game as it stands doesn't *really* reward based on difficulty.  It rewards on number of enemies you defeat and to a lesserextent relative level of those enemies to you.  

 

It's pretty much hairsplitting though, unless you are really grinding hard for that last drop of inf or xp.  Recently I ran two defeat all council radio missions, one at +0/x1 and the other at +4/x8.  The inf earned on both of them (vendoring all drops) was more than 1mm and less than 2mm.  In my eyes, that difference is negligible.  The xp difference was probably significant, but I didn't track that.

 

And finally, in my personal experience, once you are defeating +4/x8 handily, you're pretty much post-reward anyway.  I have a handful of alts that frankly have won the game of Homecoming.  I play them when I want to feel really overpowered, but there's nothing left for me to do with them.  That may just be my thought process though -- everyone is going to play for their own reasons.

[Apparition]

14 minutes ago, Brutal Justice said:

This is an mmo, an mmo that encourages teaming.  I want to feel useful on teams.  I want teamwork on teams.  

 

I feel teams are the lifeblood of this game.  The community is the lifeblood of this game.  If people are made to feel superfluous in team settings, then in my eyes, that is unhealthy for the game.  

 

Unfortunately this is the current feeling of the game, which has caused my personal playtime of the game to crater.  The most beloved game I have ever played, for so many years and countless hours.  

 

What is the root of so many people asking about game balance?  

Answer.  IOs 

 

What is it that people achieve with IOs that makes people question balance?  What is it that people chase the most with IOs?

Answer.  Defense soft caps.  

 

If non “tank” archetypes were hard capped at 40% defense it would solve almost all issues usually brought up.

 

 It would have little to no effect on the leveling experience or speed, except by those elite few who softcap immediately upon zoning into Atlas.  

 

It would have zero effect on SO builds.  

 

It would have zero effect on moderate IO builds from beginners just experimenting and getting into IOs.  

 

It would have zero effect on people’s concerns of money money money.  

 

You would not all of the sudden feel like you live in Jack’s 3 minion world.  

 

It would really only affect probably half the people on this forum in any sort of negative manner.  

 

It would greatly help the teaming experience, which I mentioned earlier as very important in my eyes.  It would not require great amounts of dev work and game restructuring.  “Squishy” toons would still be very durable.  It’s a nerf with very few negative effects and many positive ones.  

 

People don’t like nerfs.  Sometimes nerfs are necessary for the health of a game.  You can solo in this game, but it’s not a solo game.  Do they make online solo play games?   What is the average life span of a player in a solo game?   A common complaint about Champions Online, which so many of us probably tried out after the snap?   No reason to team.  

 

Bring back the value of teaming!  Not just reward chasing! Hard cap tanks and brutes at 45% defense.  HEATs and VEATs at 43%.  Everybody else at 40%.  

 

PS.  I know the incarnate soft cap is higher.  

 

Everyone is superfluous in teams.  No one needs you.  That's the beauty of CoH, in comparison to other MMOGs.  Restricting defense softcap in CoH to Tankers and Brutes only would just be a step on the path to the Holy Trinity of other MMOGs.  No thank you.

 

Honestly, a lot (not all mind you, but a lot), of the people that I've seen complain about game balance and "how easy" the game is are the same people who only or mostly do radio missions blue side, choose Council only, and have never stepped foot red side nor gold side.  That's the real problem, not game balance.  The difficulty is there, it's just people routinely choosing and farming the easiest content.

[SwitchFade]

5 hours ago, Marshal_General said:

Who really uses SOs anymore? 

I only use them up until IOs start having greater values.

A large percent of the population.

[SwitchFade]

2 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Wrong again. Willfully being insulting is nasty. I should know since I've gotten a couple 3day bans for being willfully nasty.

But really...

 

Can the prince of darkness be called nasty? 🤪😁😋

 

I think more accurately, he was his normal charming self 😌😂😂

[Brutal Justice]

2 minutes ago, Apparition said:

Everyone is superfluous in teams.  No one needs you.  That's the beauty of CoH, in comparison to other MMOGs.  Restricting defense softcap in CoH to Tankers and Brutes only would just be a step on the path to the Holy Trinity of other MMOGs.  No thank you.

Dropping the defense of archetypes would not make tanks and brutes required.

 

In light of your play “stuff other than council radios” response.  I would respond.  People who give this sort of response don’t play the game outside of max performance builds.  

 

You don’t need a tank or brute on your team now.  From level 1 to 50.  Dropping people to 40% defense is a far cry from making somebody “required”.  I also consider it a lazy response

[Infinitum]

5 minutes ago, Brutal Justice said:

Dropping the defense of archetypes would not make tanks and brutes required.

 

In light of your play “stuff other than council radios” response.  I would respond.  People who give this sort of response don’t play the game outside of max performance builds.  

 

You don’t need a tank or brute on your team now.  From level 1 to 50.  Dropping people to 40% defense is a far cry from making somebody “required”.  I also consider it a lazy response

It may be a lazy response, but it's a horrible idea for this game/community.

[Brutal Justice]

1 minute ago, Infinitum said:

It may be a lazy response, but it's a horrible idea for this game/community.

Please explain.  Don’t just dismiss.  How is a rewarding team experience horrible for an mmo?  

[Luminara]

43 minutes ago, Brutal Justice said:

If non “tank” archetypes were hard capped at 40% defense it would solve almost all issues usually brought up.

 

-ToHit.  Check and mate.

[Brutal Justice]

1 minute ago, Luminara said:

 

-ToHit.  Check and mate.

It would indeed give -ToHit some value!   Dark blast would rise from the ashes as THE blaster primary!

[Brutal Justice]

5 minutes ago, Luminara said:

 

-ToHit.  Check and mate.

-ToHit is a great example of how many different archetypes and power sets would suddenly find much more value than they currently have.  Both on teams and solo.  In incarnate content and normal content!

[Neiska]

55 minutes ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

You answered your own question!  You may not care to, but anyone seeking to reward themselves with challenge certainly would.  In my opinion, and in my personal philosophy, it would separate grinding for reward from playing for challenge.  If you want to play -1/x8 council farms and I want to play +4/x8 Carnie missions, great!  And as you say, you would get to choose to fight who and what you please, so you could get the same rewards as I would and have a much easier time of it.  Win win!

 

After all, the game as it stands doesn't *really* reward based on difficulty.  It rewards on number of enemies you defeat and to a lesserextent relative level of those enemies to you.  

 

It's pretty much hairsplitting though, unless you are really grinding hard for that last drop of inf or xp.  Recently I ran two defeat all council radio missions, one at +0/x1 and the other at +4/x8.  The inf earned on both of them (vendoring all drops) was more than 1mm and less than 2mm.  In my eyes, that difference is negligible.  The xp difference was probably significant, but I didn't track that.

 

And finally, in my personal experience, once you are defeating +4/x8 handily, you're pretty much post-reward anyway.  I have a handful of alts that frankly have won the game of Homecoming.  I play them when I want to feel really overpowered, but there's nothing left for me to do with them.  That may just be my thought process though -- everyone is going to play for their own reasons.

Alright, and I have to disagree strongly then.

 

If you only play for the challenge, as you claim, then what do you care how much you or anyone else makes on any particular difficulty? If you would get the same amount, either way, why does it matter to you if others get more for their efforts?

 

I certainly do seek to challenge myself. But I also expect fair rewards for my efforts, for effort, time involved, and the investment required to get to that point in difficulty.

 

And no, I also disagree its "hairsplitting" unless you only apply this specifically to solo play. For group play, its a much different matter. What if I want to farm? What if I want to help a friend with money and exp? What if I want to design my own adventure in AE? Context matters here.

 

From my perspective, what you call a win-win I consider a loose-loose. I strongly suspect more people would dislike your suggestion than like it, moreover once they get to 50, it would be tantamount to "well now what?". So congrats, you just killed endgame replay-ability for a good section of the community. For many players, endgame farming "is" our game. Playing the market "is" our game. Making, leveling, fully gearing up, and meticulously planning alts "is" our game. Your suggestion would pretty much invalidate the entire market as far as making/leveling/gearing alts are concerned. If it wasn't for the systems in place that support making alts, I would likely have moved onto another game by now.

 

What I find disturbing however, is this idea that rewarding players more for harder challenges, is somehow "bad." And I respectfully, but strongly disagree the idea that higher efforts do not deserve higher rewards.

[Neiska]

1 hour ago, Brutal Justice said:

This is an mmo, an mmo that encourages teaming.  I want to feel useful on teams.  I want teamwork on teams.  

 

I feel teams are the lifeblood of this game.  The community is the lifeblood of this game.  If people are made to feel superfluous in team settings, then in my eyes, that is unhealthy for the game.  

 

I play more solo than I do on teams. If I team, then I do so on my own terms and desire. If I want to run public PI missions to help people, then I will. If I want to run ITFs then I will. If I want to run Story Arcs, then I shall. But I also spend most of my playtime playing alone, in any particular activity that I feel the urge to do. People do play solo in MMO's. 

 

If you don't feel like you are contributing to the team, then that's a personal question or possibly a question of team makeup. I don't think that's really a valid reason to nerf an entire section of the community/game, just to artificially prop up some other ATs or playstyles, when those shine in their own way already.  And regardless, I think you might forget that some ATs/Builds that perform wonderfully on teams, don't perform so well when solo, and vice-versa. 

[golstat2003]

7 hours ago, Marshal_General said:

Who really uses SOs anymore? 

I only use them up until IOs start having greater values.

I do. Up until my build hits 50. I don't bother with IOs until then. Rarely do I use common IOs while leveling. EDIT: Obviously for the ones that get PL'd right away (cause I found out they suck in lower level team play) they don't even bother getting SOs besides the few I slotted to try out the set to see if it's worth playing.

Edited January 26, 2021 by golstat2003

[Luminara]

32 minutes ago, Neiska said:

loose-loose

 

Kegel exercises might help with that.

[Brutal Justice]

2 minutes ago, Neiska said:

I play more solo than I do on teams. If I team, then I do so on my own terms and desire. If I want to run public PI missions to help people, then I will. If I want to run ITFs then I will. If I want to run Story Arcs, then I shall. But I also spend most of my playtime playing alone, in any particular activity that I feel the urge to do. People do play solo in MMO's. 

 

If you don't feel like you are contributing to the team, then that's a personal question or possibly a question of team makeup. I don't think that's really a valid reason to nerf an entire section of the community/game, just to artificially prop up some other ATs or playstyles, when those shine in their own way already.  And regardless, I think you might forget that some ATs/Builds that perform wonderfully on teams, don't perform so well when solo, and vice-versa. 

I am glad you can solo.  I am not trying to take soloing away from you.  Do you think solo players can sustain an online game?  How many people do you think call out LFG and log out of the game shortly after if they don’t find a team?  How many people are asking for teams and TFs in the, wait for it, LFG channel?

 

  It’s also not about making tanks and brutes MVP.  If you notice, I also placed a meaningful defense hard cap on them as well.   It’s about ALL archetypes.  

 

40% defense is a lot of defense.  You can solo with an SO build.  40% defense is still a monster in relation to that SO build and you’re claiming you wouldn’t be able to solo with it?

 

40% doesn’t all of the sudden make IOs not worth it anymore.  If you hit 40, you probably hit it before you would have hit 45.  If my math is right.  So now you can pick up more recharge, or more hp, or more resists.  

 

There is still a place for a soloist.  If you absolutely can not play solo without soft cap, then play a tactical arrow blaster.  1 flash arrow.  You’re at softcap again.  Play dark melee.  Soft cap again.  Plant manipulation.  Willpower!  So many options to “artificially” achieve your softcap goals.  

 

I dont even Gronk your statement about some toons solo better than others... I’ve made no comment to the contrary

 

I am glad you like to solo.  You could still solo at a very high level. Therefore, it’s not a very strong case against a 40% hard cap.  

[golstat2003]

6 hours ago, Hyperstrike said:

And if you were able to do this for no increase in reward (inf/drops/etc)?

Good with that?

Sure. I would be.

[Brutal Justice]

1 minute ago, Luminara said:

 

Kegel exercises might help with that.

Hmm.  Not sure they are that helpful in solo play though...   that’s one of those team play talents.  

[Neiska]

1 minute ago, Brutal Justice said:

I am glad you can solo.  I am not trying to take soloing away from you.  Do you think solo players can sustain an online game?  How many people do you think call out LFG and log out of the game shortly after if they don’t find a team?  How many people are asking for teams and TFs in the, wait for it, LFG channel?

 

  It’s also not about making tanks and brutes MVP.  If you notice, I also placed a meaningful defense hard cap on them as well.   It’s about ALL archetypes.  

 

40% defense is a lot of defense.  You can solo with an SO build.  40% defense is still a monster in relation to that SO build and you’re claiming you wouldn’t be able to solo with it?

 

40% doesn’t all of the sudden make IOs not worth it anymore.  If you hit 40, you probably hit it before you would have hit 45.  If my math is right.  So now you can pick up more recharge, or more hp, or more resists.  

 

There is still a place for a soloist.  If you absolutely can not play solo without soft cap, then play a tactical arrow blaster.  1 flash arrow.  You’re at softcap again.  Play dark melee.  Soft cap again.  Plant manipulation.  Willpower!  So many options to “artificially” achieve your softcap goals.  

 

I dont even Gronk your statement about some toons solo better than others... I’ve made no comment to the contrary

 

I am glad you like to solo.  You could still solo at a very high level. Therefore, it’s not a very strong case against a 40% hard cap.  

It really varies on what difficulty you imagine I solo at. Some builds can solo at 40% certainly. Others? Not so much. While even more others solo just fine with even less than 40%. Mere defense is not the end-all-be-all.

 

And, actually, yes. I do think solo players can sustain an online game. There are many examples of this already. And no, I don't think that LFG or teams is the only thing that matters.

 

Please don't think I am at odds with you, I just think your suggestion would do more harm than good. To what benefit would everyone who isn't a tank or brute get from having a lower defense, when many of those builds already have a rough time as it is in the solo game? And I would argue that on teams, if you had a brute or tanker, everyone else having lower defenses wouldn't matter, since they are taking most of the attention anyway. So I don't see how lowering everyone else's defenses would encourage party play, and would only make some weak builds overall weaker.