"The Game is not Balanced around IO's"..... should it be?

[Troo]

9 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

improved rewards for the greater difficulty

Again, more rewards for higher difficulty is a fallacy.

 

You yourself stated running Werner rules ITFs for no more reason but to be added to the list of those that managed it.

Just pointing out, recognition, could be considered a reward.

 

Folks might actually be looking for challenges not necessarily difficulty. Subtle difference.. maybe.

There are many types of rewards in game.

Some rewards can be acquired more quickly by using a lower difficulty. Others simply with more targets. My point, not all rewards are based on higher difficulty.

 

7 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Part of this points to what BZB said where the carrot has to be there. It's not even too alien a concept as the current difficulty sliders do give increased rewards for your efforts.

Could just be dancing around simply wanting more content and a wider variety of challenges.

 

Variety of power sets, variety of costume pieces, variety of target groups, variety of gear.. proliferation and diversification. Tread lightly on a successful and working formula.

 

 

Edited January 29, 2021 by Troo

[Bill Z Bubba]

16 hours ago, ivanhedgehog said:

so if I dont slot some of my powers the game should give me more xp? I have greater difficulty.

Is there really no different to you between self-gimping and utilizing built in difficulty choices?

[Bill Z Bubba]

7 hours ago, Troo said:

You yourself stated running Werner rules ITFs for no more reason but to be added to the list of those that managed it.

Just pointing out, recognition, could be considered a reward.

And stated in this thread it's not something I do normally because there's no added benefit to doing so. As Mal said, I do the job and get paid.

 

7 hours ago, Troo said:

Could just be dancing around simply wanting more content and a wider variety of challenges.

Sure. Variety is the spice of life and all that. Changing things up to make them more interesting doesn't mean they have to be more difficult.

 

7 hours ago, Troo said:

Again, more rewards for higher difficulty is a fallacy.

How so? Defeating a +1 minion grants more XP/Inf than a +0. Defeating 10 enemies in 10 seconds instead of 1 enemy in 10 seconds increases your drop rates/sec. That's not fallacious at all. It's exactly how the game works.

[golstat2003]

8 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

And stated in this thread it's not something I do normally because there's no added benefit to doing so. As Mal said, I do the job and get paid.

 

Sure. Variety is the spice of life and all that. Changing things up to make them more interesting doesn't mean they have to be more difficult.

 

How so? Defeating a +1 minion grants more XP/Inf than a +0. Defeating 10 enemies in 10 seconds instead of 1 enemy in 10 seconds increases your drop rates/sec. That's not fallacious at all. It's exactly how the game works.

yeah I don't understand this idea that doing more difficulty content doesn't get you more reward. that's pretty much COH since beta. LOL.

[Bill Z Bubba]

Just now, golstat2003 said:

yeah I don't understand this idea that doing more difficulty content doesn't get you more reward. that's pretty much COH since beta. LOL.

It's akin to having a job where you were hired to do X, you do X well and you get paid for it, but then they hand you Y's duties on top of yours without bumping your pay. Or even doubling your workload but not allowing for any overtime for it. At the very least, it's rude. And almost always bad for employee retention.

[Galaxy Brain]

8 hours ago, Troo said:

Could just be dancing around simply wanting more content and a wider variety of challenges.

 

1 hour ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Sure. Variety is the spice of life and all that. Changing things up to make them more interesting doesn't mean they have to be more difficult.

 

I think this is a good way to put it. By its very nature, "different" will be "difficult" compared to what we have right now. Anything that would make you change tactics from "mow them all down" may not be intrinsically harder from a mechanical level (choosing a specific target instead of shotgun blasting everyone indiscriminately), but the addition of different decisions with pros and cons would shake things up. 

[golstat2003]

1 hour ago, Galaxy Brain said:

 

 

I think this is a good way to put it. By its very nature, "different" will be "difficult" compared to what we have right now. Anything that would make you change tactics from "mow them all down" may not be intrinsically harder from a mechanical level (choosing a specific target instead of shotgun blasting everyone indiscriminately), but the addition of different decisions with pros and cons would shake things up. 

Until COH players learn the pattern again, and it's back to "muscle memory". But that's just the nature of adding anything new to mmos. Devs take months to add "it", players beat "it" within 7 hours. 😅

[Galaxy Brain]

10 minutes ago, golstat2003 said:

Until COH players learn the pattern again, and it's back to "muscle memory". But that's just the nature of adding anything new to mmos. Devs take months to add "it", players beat "it" within 7 hours. 😅

While true, it is all about increasing variety, which I think is what a lot of us really mean by "Difficulty". Most content right now is very same-y, and it leads to the strategies we have now + the meta where just raw damage is king, and building for self defenses on top of that. If there were enemies in missions that circumvented that with how they say, needed to be controlled in some manner else they're a pain to take down, or different objectives that require some coordination, etc, all these things can compound to make tasks more meaningful for more builds.

 

Certain builds are "bad" just by the context they're in. A mission where the goal is to hold a line would be amazing for sets that rely on setting up whereas today they often get left behind as a team blazes through a mission for example. Switching things up in that regard opens the door to more viability.

 

 

[gamingglen]

2 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

...

Certain builds are "bad" just by the context they're in. A mission where the goal is to hold a line would be amazing for sets that rely on setting up whereas today they often get left behind as a team blazes through a mission for example. Switching things up in that regard opens the door to more viability.

 

Except people hate those missions because they are not "broot smash!".   I know of two, both in the Croatoa arcs: "stop 30 Fir Bolg from entering door" and "stop takeover of Salamanca" (save 3 mystics and protect from incoming Red Caps that try to interrupt the mystics' ritual).  I like those missions because they are different, though they do seem to be a tad long.

[Galaxy Brain]

25 minutes ago, gamingglen said:

Except people hate those missions because they are not "broot smash!".   I know of two, both in the Croatoa arcs: "stop 30 Fir Bolg from entering door" and "stop takeover of Salamanca" (save 3 mystics and protect from incoming Red Caps that try to interrupt the mystics' ritual).  I like those missions because they are different, though they do seem to be a tad long.

I think the highlight is the reason they are hated, since its like 30 waves and there is a solid minute gap or more between the waves.

 

If it was something like "5 waves incoming!" and a 30s timer per wave before the next stacks onto you that'd be more exciting, but still break the pace of "we chase the bad guys" to "oh damn we're pinned and theyre coming!"

[golstat2003]

4 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

I think the highlight is the reason they are hated, since its like 30 waves and there is a solid minute gap or more between the waves.

 

If it was something like "5 waves incoming!" and a 30s timer per wave before the next stacks onto you that'd be more exciting, but still break the pace of "we chase the bad guys" to "oh damn we're pinned and theyre coming!"

I believe this is exactly why the waves in the Terra Volta Trial were speed/adjusted up. In the old days you'd just be sitting there twiddling your thumbs. Cut at least like 15 minutes from the length of the Respec Trial from what I recall.

[Galaxy Brain]

15 minutes ago, golstat2003 said:

I believe this is exactly why the waves in the Terra Volta Trial were speed/adjusted up. In the old days you'd just be sitting there twiddling your thumbs. Cut at least like 15 minutes from the length of the Respec Trial from what I recall.

Yeah! That and the Yin TF where its basically the same deal are actually super fun changes of pace where you're actually defending something.  More missions like that (hell, revamp the citadel TF and have a mission halfway where you defend his database or something) and you'll be sure to find different strategies highlighted from builds and players who are not as adept at the "go go go!" Style 

[Bill Z Bubba]

1 minute ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Yeah! That and the Yin TF where its basically the same deal are actually super fun changes of pace where you're actually defending something.  More missions like that (hell, revamp the citadel TF and have a mission halfway where you defend his database or something) and you'll be sure to find different strategies highlighted from builds and players who are not as adept at the "go go go!" Style 

To be fair, that still leaves me with one tactic: kill 'em all.

Difference being they come to me to die rather than me going to them.

[Galaxy Brain]

3 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

To be fair, that still leaves me with one tactic: kill 'em all.

Difference being they come to me to die rather than me going to them.

And that alone can be a big difference for a lot of sets! 

[golstat2003]

25 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

And that alone can be a big difference for a lot of sets! 

It actually makes AOEing them to death much easier too. lol

[Galaxy Brain]

3 hours ago, golstat2003 said:

It actually makes AOEing them to death much easier too. lol

Tbqh, I do feel like there should be a slight something done about that. AoE is waayyyyy too valuable IMO, and having enemies that specifically mitigate it a bit could be nice where it gives ST specialists more to do and lets you swap tactics.

[ForeverLaxx]

13 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

How so? Defeating a +1 minion grants more XP/Inf than a +0. Defeating 10 enemies in 10 seconds instead of 1 enemy in 10 seconds increases your drop rates/sec. That's not fallacious at all. It's exactly how the game works.

I said pretty much the same thing the last time he tried to claim "fallacy". I have a suspicion that what he actually means to say is that desiring a greater reward for a greater challenge isn't the "real reason" behind some underlying desire to be challenged in-game.

 

I think there's just some fundamental disconnect here between debates on whether enemies provide an appropriate reward for the challenge they present (which I don't think they do, but won't hash that out again), and debates between people trying to change character performance in order to bring more challenge. Some people seem to think the two debates are linked, but they really aren't.

[Troo]

On 1/29/2021 at 6:29 AM, Bill Z Bubba said:

On 1/28/2021 at 10:52 PM, Troo said:

Again, more rewards for higher difficulty is a fallacy.

How so? Defeating a +1 minion grants more XP/Inf than a +0. Defeating 10 enemies in 10 seconds instead of 1 enemy in 10 seconds increases your drop rates/sec. That's not fallacious at all. It's exactly how the game works.

You are not incorrect.

The concept of 'higher difficulty should equal higher reward' is what contains the fallacy.

 

First, there are many reward types in CoX (and in life). Not all of them are based on more difficulty. This just.. is what it is.

Second, difficulty can be very subjective.

 

Example: Is it really difficult to run a fire farm with a maxed fire farm build?

 

I understand for some folks, the goal of a game is to acquire the highest reward for themselves using any method available. I generally have no problem with it.

Just be aware this can naturally leave a reward system open to abuse and exploitation.

 

Sometimes there is a sense of entitlement that comes with reward expectations. If we do something twice as fast or twice as hard we should get twice as much.

Yes, sure.. but it is rarely that simple and it is not an endless exponential equation.

 

Game design often leverages diminishing returns to still provide a little more reward and avoid throwing things out of balance. This can be a more elegant solution than caps or curbs.

 

Without diving too deep into game theory, intrinsic motivation, and variable ratio rewards,..

It can be counterintuitive how our brains actually respond more favorably to the chance for something to happening 50% of the time than to a 100% guarantee of that same thing happening.

 

 

--------not the same thought---------

 

Reputation and status could also be considered rewards.

Not everyone cares about such things, but some games, communities, organizations leverage this for more experienced and higher level folks.

It is interesting to note games that provide some type of reputation or status can actually induce more fairness and cooperation in player populations.

 

 

[Brutal Justice]

On 1/28/2021 at 1:03 AM, DSorrow said:

Stuff and things

 

On 1/28/2021 at 1:03 AM, DSorrow said:

Stuff and things 

 

Thank you for your time and consideration.

 

I will admit the incarnate numbers do look pretty bad for a 40% hard cap.  Let's be fair though, I did say a couple things about that which would more or less take care of it.

On 1/27/2021 at 11:40 AM, Brutal Justice said:

The ability of every person to achieve soft cap levels of defense is the result cause of the current power levels.  

 

Some evidence.  How did they make the incarnate content harder?  Overall they raised the effectual soft cap, which would indicate they saw an issue with the accessibility of such soft cap.  They did other things but this example is a global example thus more substantiated.  Most balance attempts of mobs has largely been to address defense, post softcap knowledge and accessibility.  Auto hit powers, large -def debuffs for example.  Again this points to an underlying understanding of the devs, that defense is a bit of an issue.

 

On 1/27/2021 at 2:41 PM, Brutal Justice said:

Incarnate content should be more difficult than normal content but that’s really a separate area of balance from normal content.  If defense was hard capped you could drop the ToHit that they posses as a start with probably comparatively small dev resources.  But incarnate content balance is really a separate issue from the 1-50 content.  So I guess my reply to this would be that I don’t want to see normal content affected by incarnate content anymore than it already is.  

Maybe I did sort of think that through a little bit.  Now that the incarnate issue is settled we'll move on to some normal content.  

 

Your numbers look pretty good but I do feel you left out some fairly important ones.  I'll list a whole bunch so it doesn't seem like I'm cherry picking numbers just to support my case.

 

First some formulas I used.

+4 level mods = Accuracy 1.4, Damage 1.44, Debuff 1.44

Chance to hit = Base Accuracy * Rank Mod * Level Mod * (Base ToHit - Defense%)

45% defense	1*1*1(.5-.45)= .05 chance to hit
40% defense	1*1*1(.5-40)= .1 chance to hit
0% defense	1*1*1(.5-0)= .5 chance to hit
45% defense at +4	1*1*1.4(.5-.45)= .07 chance to hit
40% defense at +4	1*1*1.4(.5-.4)= .14 chance to hit
0% defense at +4	1*1*1.4(.5-0)= .7 chance to hit

 

The formula I used for DPS

10 hits for 100 damage = 1000dps

10 * chance to hit * (100 * level mod) = dps

 

Ok, let's get started and see where we go.

 

Tank at 45% defense	10*.05*100	50 damage
Tank at 90% resistance	10*.5*10	50 damage

Tank at 45% defense at +4	10*.07*144	101 damage
Tank at 90% resistance at +4	10*.7*14.4	101 damage

Now that is a thing of beauty.  They are both equally durable but that defense tank is dodging all the slows and -tohit so they are much quicker.

 

Scrapper at 45% defense	10*.05*100	50 damage
Scrapper at 45% defense at +4	10*.07*144	101 damage
Scrapper at 40% defense	10*.1*100	100 damage
Scrapper at 40% defense at +4	10*.14*144	202 damage

Those numbers probably look familiar.

 

Let's see what it looks like for those resistance scrappers.

Scrapper at 75% resistance	10*.5*25	125 damage
Scrapper at 75% resistance at +4	10*.7*36	252 damage

Ouch, that's quite a bit different than those defense scrappers!  Well, at least the ones at 45% defense.  It's not nearly as offensive when compared to the scrappers at only 40% defense.  Maybe 40% is a bit more balanced.  Still worse... but not as bad.

 

It's also interesting how that 45% defense really doesn't care if you'r a tank or a scrapper.  Well it doesn't really care what you are to be frank.  It's a good thing tanks have some other increased numbers to help or they'd pretty much just be fat scrappers.  Too bad for those resistance guys though.  It's like they placed different hard caps on them for some balance purpose.  Lame!

 

Let's try some more, this time with some Defense Debuff thrown in.

45% def, 30% -def, 50% DDR	1*1*1(.5-(.45-.15)) = .2 chance to hit
40% def, 30% -def, 50% DDR	1*1*1(.5-(.4-.15)) = .25 chance to hit
0% def, 30% -def, 0 DDR	1*1*1(.5-(0-.3)) = .8 chance to hit
45% def, 30% -def, 50% DDR at +4	1*1*1.4(.5-(.45-.22)) = .38 chance to hit
40% def, 30% -def, 50% DDR at +4	1*1*1.4(.5-(.4-.22)) = .45 chance to hit
0% def, 30% -def, 0 DDR at +4	1*1*1.4(.5-(0-.43)) = 1.3 capped at .95 chance to hit

 

Tank at 45% def, 30% -def, 50% DDR	10*.2*100	200 damage
Tank at 90% res, 30% -def, 0 DDR	10*.8*10	80 damage
Tank at 45% def, 30% -def, 50% DDR at +4	10*.38*144	547 damage
Tank at 90% res, 30% -def, 0 DDR at + 4	10*.95*14.4	136 damage

Dang, that's rough on those defense tanks!  That's currently what happens to them in game?  I can't wait to see what happens to a scrapper!  We already covered that 45% soft cap and how it doesn't care who you are though so, spoiler alert!  They have the same numbers as the tanks.

 200 damage at +0.  547 damage at +4.

 

Scrapper at 40% def, 30% -def, 50% DDR	10*.25*100	250 damage
Scrapper at 40% def, 30% -def, 50% DDR at +4	10*.45*144	648 damage

That purple patch hits hard combined with some debuffs!

 

Scrapper at 75% res, 30% -def, 0% DDR	10*.8*25	200 damage
Scrapper at 75% res, 30% -def, 0% DDR at +4	10*.95*36	342 damage

We're pulling ahead now baby!  That ToHit cap really saves your bacon.  Caps are good?  One thing to notice with these numbers is that 200 damage.  It's the same as a soft capped scrapper!  It only took -30% def debuff, with 50% DDR to be applied to a current soft cap scrapper for the resistance scrapper to pull even.  There is your cascade tipping point at +0.

 

That's looking pretty rough for our old friend the 40% cap.  They really took a digger once they hit +4.  Let's be fair to the poor fella, let's call him Bob, he wasn't doing that great even at 45% defense.  Poor Bob.

 

Now let's say we know another guy.  We'll call this guy Bill.  He has 95% DDR.  Should we see how valuable that is?  We might have to carry a few more decimal points...

Scrapper at 45% def, 30% -def, 95% DDR	10*.065*100	65 damage
Scrapper at 45% def, 30% -def, 95% DDR at +4	10*.104*144	150 damage

Bill is crushing it!  Just when that resistance scrapper was feeling good about himself, he gets the rug pulled right out from under him!  Even at +0 that resistance scrapper takes more damage than Bill at +4.  Bob needs to get some DDR, and quick.  Maybe a Hard cap Bill will give them both a chance.

Scrapper at 40% def, 30% -def, 95% DDR	10*.115*100	115 damage
Scrapper at 40% def, 30% -def, 95% DDR at +4	10*.17*144	244.8

I guess not.  A scrapper at 40% def hard cap, 95% DDR, and running at +4 is still better than a scrapper at 75% res hard cap at +0.  I mean not only is he taking less damage, he's getting hit with other debuffs/mezzes significantly less.  Making his life just better all around.  

 

It also takes 1 large -def debuff to drop these soft capped scrappers to this point.  When you're only getting hit 5%-7% of the time at +0 to +4 those chances are extremely low.  For two -15% def debuffs to land are even more extremely low.  10 hit chances is also the alpha strike.  We ARE actively playing our toons so the chances go way way way down if they don't land those hits with the alpha.  You're also dodging slows and mezzes and -tohits. 

 

But but but, going from 5% at soft cap to 10% at Hard cap is 100% more!  What's 5% of 16 hits? ( aggro cap) .8 hits.  what's 10% of 16 hits? 1.6 hits.  The resistance scrapper gets hit 50%-70%, that's 8-11.2 hits out of 16.  He's taking significantly more damage and getting neutered by debuffs at the same time.  You call that balanced?

 

A 40% hard cap would cause you to take twice as much  damage but you'd still be better than the poor resistance scrappers.  If you have 95% DDR you're still really solid and it's no contest.  I showed +4 numbers to show the worst case also.  If people are running at max diff they are probably 50+1 so it's really only +3.  You might only be at +1 if you're in DA.  

 

Outside of Incarnate content, which I did address,  (+tohit is killer on defense)  that 40% cap would just slow you down.  Possibly cause different power selections, costing DPS and over all kill speed to achieve previous levels of survival.  You have a higher chance of cascade with little DDR because you are getting hit slightly more.  This gives +def powers more value.  They may not make you demigods like you were, but since you're taking more -def, you will need them more to stay at the cap.  They do this now but you getting hit less means they do it less.  Countering those -def debuffs becomes much more important, which is exactly what those bubbles would do.  -ToHit would become more valuable since it could "get you" to the soft cap.  Active mitigation would become more valuable to either stop the alpha or recover after it.  If .8 hits didn't kill you I highly doubt 1.6 will.  Percentages look scary, actually hits, not so much.

 

Some of the numbers with a 40% cap were significant.  Mostly after taking some solid debuff, showing that cascade effect and the value of that DDR.  But when you look at them next to the resistance numbers you should be able to see they are not out of line.  Right now a capped resistance scrapper can't even hold a candle to a soft capped defense scrapper.  Who are we kidding?  A hybrid scrapper!  I didn't even factor in the in-house resistance those hybrids have!  AHHH!  Just take 10% off of all those damage numbers for the Defense toons to be safe.

 

This nerf would have zero effect on people not currently running at soft cap, and very little on people not running at max difficulty.  It slows down the top tier and leaves the lower tiers untouched.  Are we here for balance or are we here to defend our brokenness?  

[Infinitum]

19 hours ago, Brutal Justice said:

Lots of irrelevant stuff

No to all of it for me.  Still.

 

Sorry, but after days you still dont get it.  No matter how many people tell you how flawed your premise is you aren't listening.

 

You do any of that you would be the only one left playing - for lots of valid reasons you still wouldn't take note of or listen to - so I'm not going to waste my time listing them.  Again.

 

We all agree there is an issue - but your solution is a big ole /jranger.

Edited January 31, 2021 by Infinitum

[Troo]

Not to totally dismiss @Brutal Justice could there be something in what they are saying?

 

I don't remember if it was Bopper or Galaxy Brain who showed some graphs on the effectiveness of defense over the cap vs defense debuffs.

 

Maybe dropping self defense cap to 40 with  a team defense cap that goes to 45 has some merit or maybe there is an idea in there that is worth a closer look.

[SwitchFade]

3 minutes ago, Troo said:

Not to totally dismiss @Brutal Justice could there be something in what they are saying?

 

I don't remember if it was Bopper or Galaxy Brain who showed some graphs on the effectiveness of defense over the cap vs defense debuffs.

 

Maybe dropping self defense cap to 40 with  a team defense cap that goes to 45 has some merit or maybe there is an idea in there that is worth a closer look.

How DARE you! 😭

[SwitchFade]

59 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

No to all of it...

 

You do any of that and @SwitchFadewould eRage and insta-quit playing - for lots of valid reasons.

 

FIX'D!

 

But no for the seriouslies...

 

Thanks and no.

[ScarySai]

6 minutes ago, SwitchFade said:

Not to totally dismiss @Brutal Justice could there be something in what they are saying?

Not even an inkling.

[Galaxy Brain]

Setting the hard cap there does far more harm unless there are downright overhauls to every defense set across the board (not just armors, straight up any power with +def) as well as defense bonuses.

 

Gonna be a hard pass just due to sheer complexity, let alone player reactions.

Edited January 31, 2021 by Galaxy Brain