Do Dominators Need a Buff?

[siolfir]

12 hours ago, Sailboat said:

They did buff Dominators in a patch already.  That doesn't mean it wasn't sufficient,  I guess, but they are better than they once were.

They buffed Dominators as many different times as they did Stalkers, and a well-built and well-played Dominator is great. I don't have the patience for the "everything's a click" part of that style, but I don't think they're any better or worse off than Controllers or Corruptors.

 

5 hours ago, Greycat said:

Use your controls better than that.

Ah, yes, the "l2p n00b" argument that is so original and endearing, and adds so much to the conversation. Thank you for providing your immeasurably valuable input.

[Greycat]

1 minute ago, siolfir said:

Ah, yes, the "l2p n00b" argument that is so original and endearing, and adds so much to the conversation. Thank you for providing your immeasurably valuable input.

If that's what you took from it, that's on you.

[Seed22]

11 hours ago, Greycat said:

Given I play without it and don't have issues with my doms survivability... no, it won't. Use your controls.

 

The fact this statement has been made tells me too many people rely on permadom as a crutch.

Yeah no. It takes 56% recharge. Fifty. Sx. The fact you cant do that is apparent in these post. We get it, you cant build a perma dom, doesnt mean its a crutch(my dark/fire will have it WITH 45% S/L/E def and some def and res.). Taking away other peoples things just because you cant seem to get 56% recharge doesnt really seem fair now does it?

 

edit: 56 after hasten. 
 

Oh! And playing on probably -1 or +0 diff will most likely mean you dont have any issues in survivability, or in a team, but alright I guess

Edited January 31, 2021 by Seed22

[Seed22]

6 hours ago, Greycat said:

Use your controls better than that.

Thats about the least logical reply i’ve seen on this forum. And I’ve once made the mistake of reading suggestions. Congrats on not understanding doms. Also when you learn how to build a dom, THEN you can add criticism. Till then, please refrain from it, and especially from chastising others who most definitely understand the AT more(and probably have perma AND capped def)

Edited January 31, 2021 by Seed22

[oedipus_tex]

I'm not sure if "buff" is the right word.

 

Dominators on Homecoming play differently than other servers. In 2019, the team made a pass through the Assault sets to normalize the damage of the powers. This did a lot to fix some of the major gaps in the sets. If you happen to play Dominators on a server where they have implemented the crashless nuke and sustain rules for Blasters but not fixed Dominator Assault sets you are sure to feel this archetype underperforms. 

 

That said, even on Homecoming I'm not sure the Assault sets were taken far enough in the buffs. In my mind Dominators should absolutely rule in two areas: having incomparable control of the battle field, and being the squishy archetype with unusually good mezz protection. They've lost ground on both counts. 

 

IMO the right move is to move mezz protection out of Domination mode and give this class native mezz protection at all times, in the style of a melee class. Doing this wouldn't buff permadoms but would hugely buff nonperma builds. It would be a unique identity in keeping with the goals of the class. I also happen to think it's consistent to comics. Dominators should be all but impossible to mezz.

 

The second thing I'd like to see is another pass through the Assault sets. Many of them are "samey." They seem hemmed in by very restrictive design rules. With such minor differences between several of them (in particular: Thorny, Icy, Electric, and to some extent also Martial and Radiation) I find myself not wanting to build more Dominators. I think with the Assault sets there was a tendency to believe by the OG devs that just grabbing a few blasts, a few punches and Build Up you had an "Assault Set." IMO these sets need unique mechanics to make them stand out. 

 

I guess there are some other things I'd add. Domination mode should be more generously and consistently applied so that sets like Ice and Electric Control can benefit from it. That would help the sets a lot. 

Edited January 31, 2021 by oedipus_tex

[Greycat]

32 minutes ago, Seed22 said:

Yeah no. It takes 56% recharge. Fifty. Sx. The fact you cant do that is apparent in these post. We get it, you cant build a perma dom, doesnt mean its a crutch(my dark/fire will have it WITH 45% S/L/E def and some def and res.). Taking away other peoples things just because you cant seem to get 56% recharge doesnt really seem fair now does it?

 

edit: 56 after hasten. 
 

Oh! And playing on probably -1 or +0 diff will most likely mean you dont have any issues in survivability, or in a team, but alright I guess

Keep making assumptions. It's amusing.

[Greycat]

31 minutes ago, Seed22 said:

Thats about the least logical reply i’ve seen on this forum. And I’ve once made the mistake of reading suggestions. Congrats on not understanding doms. Also when you learn how to build a dom, THEN you can add criticism. Till then, please refrain from it, and especially from chastising others who most definitely understand the AT more(and probably have perma AND capped def)

Been playing them since COV came out. I understand them just fine.

Also, you do not get to dictate who can and cannot respond to a thread. If you have an issue with a reply, speak to a mod.

[siolfir]

35 minutes ago, oedipus_tex said:

IMO the right move is to move mezz protection out of Domination mode and give this class native mezz protection at all times, in the style of a melee class. Doing this wouldn't buff permadoms but would hugely buff nonperma builds. It would be a unique identity in keeping with the goals of the class. I also happen to think it's consistent to comics. Dominators should be all but impossible to mezz.

 

The second thing I'd like to see is another pass through the Assault sets. Many of them are "samey." They seem hemmed in by very restrictive design rules. With such minor differences between several of them (in particular: Thorny, Icy, Electric, and to some extent also Martial and Radiation) I find myself not wanting to build more Dominators. I think with the Assault sets there was a tendency to believe by the OG devs that just grabbing a few blasts, a few punches and Build Up you had an "Assault Set." IMO these sets need unique mechanics to make them stand out. 

I could see the first one, but really every AT that doesn't already have it would benefit greatly from mez protection. I also wouldn't take it as far as "all but impossible to mezz" and instead make it 6-8 points of protection to all (with KB resistance to go with protection) as an auto. This is similar to what Arachnos Soldiers have their auto-power armors only slightly stronger since it's not also being attached to resistance (7.5% resistance to all in the case of Bane Spider Armor Upgrade). Then, if you wanted to be tricky you could let it accept outside buffs - which I think would mean that the +special powers in many of the Assault sets would boost your mez protection during the duration of the buff also.

 

As for the second, I think that a lot of the issue with the Assault sets is the insistence of adding ranged attacks or melee attacks just so they aren't "melee damage" or "ranged damage" and so you end up with Shuriken Assault instead Martial Assault or the token Incinerate and Combustion in Fiery Assault; some of the repurposing seems to fit the theme (Earth Assault was the example I used in another thread for a melee Assault set) but most of it is just a kludge of mixed-bag powers that all share a damage type and calling that a theme.

Edited January 31, 2021 by siolfir
break up run-on sentence

[Techulon]

Read everything in this thread, now I have no idea what to do with my Dom. 
 

It is ice ice ice and I am slotting for high recharge and defense. I would love to experience the wonders of Permadom. 

[Seed22]

16 minutes ago, Greycat said:

Been playing them since COV came out. I understand them just fine.

Also, you do not get to dictate who can and cannot respond to a thread. If you have an issue with a reply, speak to a mod.

You’re right, I dont get tp dictate who replies so apologies there. And  so what? So have I. If anything, that means you understand them less and you’re only really highlighting to me your lack of knowledge in the AT. But beyond that, its just the blatantly asinine request of «because  I can’t, no one should be able to» mentality that came across in your initial post. Like I said, you cant get perma dom? That sucls. But that doesnt mean everyone else’s build should be hindered. That type of asinine thought process is what vexes me.

[Greycat]

15 minutes ago, Seed22 said:

You’re right, I dont get tp dictate who replies so apologies there. And  so what? So have I. If anything, that means you understand them less and you’re only really highlighting to me your lack of knowledge in the AT. But beyond that, its just the blatantly asinine request of «because  I can’t, no one should be able to» mentality that came across in your initial post. Like I said, you cant get perma dom? That sucls. But that doesnt mean everyone else’s build should be hindered. That type of asinine thought process is what vexes me.

Again, you are assuming.

You do not know me. You quite obviously do not play with me. You're only making yourself look bad.

 

Edit: Also, hint for you. "Choose not to" is not "Can't." "Can't" is 100% your assumption. I do not like the playstyle and what perma requires in choices and builds. I do not like the whole "Doms must have perma or they're broken/you're playing them wrong" mindset. I very much prefer the "Do I use this now or not" decision process (which I even stated clearly in my original post, so your assumptions are 100% yours and your desire to be insulting,) as well as "Power with a cost" which has been taken away from various powers that used to have associated crashes.

 

That, frankly, is more information about me than your responses, assumptions and attitude about me deserves.

Edited January 31, 2021 by Greycat

[The_Warpact]

14 minutes ago, Techulon said:

Read everything in this thread, now I have no idea what to do with my Dom. 
 

It is ice ice ice and I am slotting for high recharge and defense. I would love to experience the wonders of Permadom. 

I went for perma dom and def, and I have a blast playing. 

Do what you want to do based on what is fun or think might be fun for you.

Don't let others dictate what you might like based on their opinions on what THEY like.

[oedipus_tex]

36 minutes ago, siolfir said:

I could see the first one, but really every AT that doesn't already have it would benefit greatly from mez protection. I also wouldn't take it as far as "all but impossible to mezz" and instead make it 6-8 points of protection to all (with KB resistance to go with protection) as an auto. This is similar to what Arachnos Soldiers have their auto-power armors only slightly stronger since it's not also being attached to resistance (7.5% resistance to all in the case of Bane Spider Armor Upgrade). Then, if you wanted to be tricky you could let it accept outside buffs - which I think would mean that the +special powers in many of the Assault sets would boost your mez protection during the duration of the buff also.

 

 

IMO the difference between Dominators and other archetypes is Dominators have mezz protection built into their inherent. It's a strong part of the class' identity and was nearly unique to them until mezz protection was proliferated more widely among squishies. The AttribMods for Dominators having mezz protection already exist in the class power definitions, so all that would be required is moving them or adjusting them in some way.

 

 

 

One option that might work is just changing the Protection from 1m 30sec to something like 8 min. Then even non-perma doms would have mezz protection most of them time, as long as they were semi-competent about reapplying it occasionally. Or they could move the AttribMods out of Domination to the T5 "self buff" powers Dominators get in their Assault sets. Build Up, Power Up, Envenomed Blades, etc.  

Edited January 31, 2021 by oedipus_tex

[Techulon]

29 minutes ago, The_Warpact said:

I went for perma dom and def, and I have a blast playing. 

Do what you want to do based on what is fun or think might be fun for you.

Don't let others dictate what you might like based on their opinions on what THEY like.

Excellent advice! I know I will have a blast playing it, I just have no idea how Permadom works. 😊

[Coyote]

5 minutes ago, Techulon said:

Excellent advice! I know I will have a blast playing it, I just have no idea how Permadom works. 😊

 

Post in the Dominator forum and you will get plenty of help regarding what perma-Dom means, how to achieve it, and some of the build constraints that it imposes.

[Coyote]

1 hour ago, siolfir said:

I also wouldn't take it as far as "all but impossible to mezz" and instead make it 6-8 points of protection to all (with KB resistance to go with protection) as an auto.

 

To be honest, 3-4 points of Mez protection as well as 25% Mez Resistance would be quite enough for almost all situations, and if it comes from an inherent power that would basically be permanent out of the box, it's probably as strong as it should be. And it would give room to actually want to build for Mez Resistance from other sources, to minimize the chance that you'll get 2-3 mezzes stacked upon you.

[Riverdusk]

What I'll say every time this topic comes up, just get rid of the dom bar so that domination is on just a timer alone.  It'd make the AT much less of a perma dom or bust endeavor.  Without the build up dom bar you could be a few seconds off perma and it wouldn't be so annoying.  Just deal with it being down a few seconds and click it whenever it is off cooldown and get on with life.   

 

Would also make going AFK for a couple minutes not force you to start all over again building the stupid bar back up (which is my biggest annoyance) because you have to be there to constantly either click hasten or dom.  I don't think there is any AT in the game right now that punishes you for going AFK and dealing with "real life" as much as dom does.  Brute is probably the only other one and that one is not even close.

[Techulon]

1 minute ago, Coyote said:

 

Post in the Dominator forum and you will get plenty of help regarding what perma-Dom means, how to achieve it, and some of the build constraints that it imposes.

Also great advice, thank you. I  certainly will.
 

I do also enjoy learning about some of the high finer points discussed. 

[oedipus_tex]

23 minutes ago, Techulon said:

Excellent advice! I know I will have a blast playing it, I just have no idea how Permadom works. 😊

 

"Domination" is a power that is exclusive to the Dominator class. Unlike most class inherents, this is an actual clickable power they get at level 1. It can only be clicked when the "Rage" bar is full.

 

Rage on Dominators works more or less like Rage on Brutes. Using attacks builds the bar (though Dominators do not build Rage through being attacked by enemies). Instead of raising the Dominator's damage like a Brute, all Rage on Dominators does is build progress toward filling the bar. When the bar is full, you can click the Domination power, and the following things happen under the hood:

• Your blue bar (endurance) refills
• You get Mag 8 mezz protection to all known mezz types for 1 min 30 sec. The mag is lower than armor sets but also has no holes. 
• You get full coverage kb protection and resistance for 1 min 30 sec.
• Your Rage bar is locked at 100% for 1min 30 sec.
• You get tagged as "Being in Domination mode" for 1 min 30 sec. Under the hood, this is done by repurposing the "stealth" stat, filling it temporarily.

 

The final bullet there is just a flag that individual powers look for. Each power has to be specifically coded to react to the Domination tag. As a general rule, it adds a second mezz of equal Magnitude for a 33% longer duration. However, this is not consistently applied across all powers and is mostly a rule of thumb.

 

After 1 min and 30 sec, Domination is supposed to crash. In technical terms, the power is supposed to empty your Stealth and Rage stats. However, if you have enough global recharge, you can actually recast Domination before the 1 min 30 sec moment when the Stealth and Rage stats are affected. If you do this, you reapply all the benefits from the bullets above, and also reset the time before the bars crash. In other words, you avoid the time period where you have to build the Rage bar. As long as you can keep clicking within 1 min 30 sec, you can avoid the timer on the crash happening and infinitely keep up the benefits of Domination, hence "permadom."

Edited January 31, 2021 by oedipus_tex

[Seed22]

1 hour ago, oedipus_tex said:

I'm not sure if "buff" is the right word.

 

Dominators on Homecoming play differently than other servers. In 2019, the team made a pass through the Assault sets to normalize the damage of the powers. This did a lot to fix some of the major gaps in the sets. If you happen to play Dominators on a server where they have implemented the crashless nuke and sustain rules for Blasters but not fixed Dominator Assault sets you are sure to feel this archetype underperforms. 

 

That said, even on Homecoming I'm not sure the Assault sets were taken far enough in the buffs. In my mind Dominators should absolutely rule in two areas: having incomparable control of the battle field, and being the squishy archetype with unusually good mezz protection. They've lost ground on both counts. 

 

IMO the right move is to move mezz protection out of Domination mode and give this class native mezz protection at all times, in the style of a melee class. Doing this wouldn't buff permadoms but would hugely buff nonperma builds. It would be a unique identity in keeping with the goals of the class. I also happen to think it's consistent to comics. Dominators should be all but impossible to mezz.

 

The second thing I'd like to see is another pass through the Assault sets. Many of them are "samey." They seem hemmed in by very restrictive design rules. With such minor differences between several of them (in particular: Thorny, Icy, Electric, and to some extent also Martial and Radiation) I find myself not wanting to build more Dominators. I think with the Assault sets there was a tendency to believe by the OG devs that just grabbing a few blasts, a few punches and Build Up you had an "Assault Set." IMO these sets need unique mechanics to make them stand out. 

 

I guess there are some other things I'd add. Domination mode should be more generously and consistently applied so that sets like Ice and Electric Control can benefit from it. That would help the sets a lot. 

This I can get behind. 

[Seed22]

31 minutes ago, Techulon said:

Also great advice, thank you. I  certainly will.
 

I do also enjoy learning about some of the high finer points discussed. 

Perma dom though is NOT an either-or scenario, do keep in mind you can have the res or def you want and still have perma! Im sure the gurus of dominators on the dom forum will have oodles of more useful advice to pass along 😀

[oedipus_tex]

I think to understand how Dominators came about its helpful to understand the mindset of the folks who created them.

 

Dominators were meant to exist as a Blaster/Controller combo on teams that consisted of:

• Brute
• Stalker
• Mastermind
• Corruptor
• Other Dominators

The early dev teams had a strong affection for "blapping" as a concept. They just really seemed to want that to be a thing, maybe afraid of what imbalances they were creating by making an MMO where players could freely Hover and Fly. With no Blaster Manipulation secondaries on the villain side, Dominators inherited those. You'll notice the count of set types villain versus hero side was mostly maintained:

• 2 armor sets
• 2 melee sets
• 2 buff/debuff sets
• 1 control set

Leaving out Mastermind pets, the only variables are settled by the Assault set which is actually a combo Blast/Manipulation set. This works out to the Blast set (2 hero side, 1 1/2 villain side) and Manipulation set (1 hero side 1/2 villain side).

 

To be blunt, the original model for Dominators sucked to play. It turns out you can't just grab Control powers and Blast/Manipulation powers together and make it work, even with sometime access to Mag 6 mezzes. Because of this, the Domination power was retooled several times, first adding endurance bar refills and mezz protection, later swapping around damage. I still think Dominators are a fascinating class, but am not sure the class ever got where the original team wanted it. They were picturing a glass cannon in the vein of a Blaster/Controller and I'm not sure that was ever going to work as envisioned, especially after the doors were thrown open to mix any of the 10 classes together.

Edited January 31, 2021 by oedipus_tex

[Machariel]

Personally I don't see a problem with permadom and with dominators being able to achieve it on their own.  I think it would be idiotic to make it something that you need a team to be able to do because hey, if you've got a full team, who cares if you can lock down the entire mob by yourself?  Your teammates don't care.  In fact they probably would rather you not do that since it makes them not clump up as well. 

 

The problem with dominators is that the water level of the game has risen so much, thanks to the power of easy IOs etc, that their core competency - turning City of Heroes into City of Statues with a single or a few powers - simply isn't that useful when your team can just face tank them anyway.  In fights against hard targets like AVs and GMs controls are basically useless thanks to purple triangles, barring corner cases like stacking confuse.  It's the same situation with controllers and tanks, except that controllers can buff/debuff and tanks can sit in front of AVs/GMs - preventing enemies from attacking simply isn't that useful and it's animation time that could be spent reducing their HP closer to zero.

 

That said, I think overall Dominators are a little underpowered but I don't think I'd make any changes to them.  The Assault Sets are pretty good, their ancillary/epic pools are strong, and - as long as you're playing a game where control matters AT ALL - the control sets provide a number of useful and varied tools.  Even WITH permadom, the binary nature of controls means that you have to stay on your toes because if a key control misses you don't always have a ton of time or other tools to be able to respond and Dominators are the squishiest AT in the game.  If some massive meta shift happens (unlikely) where hard controls become more useful then obviously dominators will shine but I think that would require a rethinking of control in general.

 

Please leave permadom alone.  If you choose not to use it, fine, it's up often enough as it is and you can save it for key moments.  People build for other things - perma-Eclipse, perma-Phantom Army, perma-Chrono Shift, perma-Hasten, perma-Soul Drain, etc, and "I don't want to have to remember to click something" isn't a good argument against any of those.  It's super strong but obviously not required and its usefulness varies a LOT by set since not all controls are affected by it.  It's also a valuable endurance management tool on an archetype that can really burn through End very fast.

Edited January 31, 2021 by Machariel

[Machariel]

3 hours ago, Greycat said:

If that's what you took from it, that's on you.

There's really nothing TO take from "use your controls better" other than "get good".  I might as well say "build your character better" and it would be equally helpful. 🙄

[Runewritten]

Doms are my favorite AT, and I've never felt obligated to chase permadom. Controls are my opener, assault mops everything up-- once the fight starts, I don't stop until I stop them, and I like that 'tidal wave/force of nature' feel to the class. It feels plenty synergistic to me.

I will admit my doms (especially my gravity doms) can feel pretty vulnerable compared to some of my other characters. After realizing how much less squishy blasters are these days, it does feel a little "off." 

That said, I would definitely support moving mez protection from Domination to a permanent spot, which I think would alleviate the obligation people feel to be 'permadom or bust.'